Gunner Jedi Balance in a bad state.

[PizzaTheSlut]

Hello, i have been playing this game since about b17 and enjoyed it thoroughly however the current patch is such a large departure from the previous in terms of the gunner vs jedi dynamic that I have to point out some issues. Now i understand in spirit what the devs were trying to do with this rebalance and removing stance perks. So they gave all jedi more damage reduction, made force drain extremely low for stationary sith/jedi, and in turn gave an occasional stagger that lets you get one or two, massively reduced in damage shots on a jedi or sith occasionally. Because it seemed dramatic at first the prior buffs to jedi/sith seemed justified but on further play and players adapting to the new patch, it has revealed to be a massive over buff. Facing one or even two gunners without perfect aim hitting every shot with a high RoF weapon, a jedi/sith must simply hold walk and block, and the laser shots are ineffectual on the saberist. Now of course there are concs, blobs, and sec nades to knock down saberists however unless someone is using a ridiculously powerful weapon like Cr3 or t21 the damage reduction leads to the brief shots to be only a minor punishment especially when playing with a team. Given the ease of avoiding these knockdown enablers or a gunner shooting the class aiming for the knock down punishment should be harsher.

However the most ridiculous change by far is the swing block at any time to apply q3 to your saber swing against a gunner. Now for absolutely no point investment a sith or jedi can ignore normal gunner restraints and guarantee a safe attack. Given the low damage from lasers thanks to damage reduction a jedi or sith can stagger multiple times, and still manage to make a safe swing block kill despite missing multiple swings. In the past if a gunner was skilled and timed their shots appropriately between the gaps, and the saberist did not invest into q3, or did not disable the gunner, or use acrobatics to trip the gunner up, a gunner could rightfully high damage punish or kill a reckless saberist. Now as long as this swing block mechanic is understood a gunner no longer has a chance to punish reckless saberists besides some measly damage on a stagger. This would be fine if force drain was in a similar state to what it was previously where jedi or sith tanking for long periods of time would leave them forced to use acrobatics and running, but that is no longer the case.

What all this has led to is a balance state in which only a handful of gunner classes, played well have even a chance in hell against a competent saberist, those classes being Clone, Wookie, and SBD. Thanks to the ability to not get pushed they can ignore the stifiling pressure of threat of push + enemy gunners which leads to an inability to even begin to fight the saberist as the q3 swingblock and low force drain negates almost any chance of counterplay. However even these classes struggle, after all one must simply crouch and the knock down that the SBD/Wook must risk life and limb to get into range for is negated. Clone must also hit a high accuracy blob compared to the massive cone of push threatening to happen at any time. One solution would simply to make the classes that counter saberist, actually counter saberist so they must actually rely on team mates to deal with them.

Another solution would be to keep the current high power and defense of saberists and nerfing their utility powers like push, lightning, and grip. Many people complain about grip on this patch, but the problem is not grip's strength but the fact the negligible force drain makes reasonable counterplay impossible on this patch. Adding a large damage bonus to any jedi or sith hit by lasers while using grip, lightning, or in the push cooldown animation would be a sufficient fix as well to punishing reckless jedi and sith. Simply removing the q3 swingblock and adding back into the point system would aslo be acceptable. As now anyone using the very powerful utility powers also has access to q3 safety, which is unprecedented.

As it stands gunners must play extremely well, and the saberist must either not understand the mechanics of the game or swing mindlessly in a straight line to even be threatened. This combined with the games long standing balance where a gunner + push threat opresses any one gunner's play into the ground lead to almost no room to outplay jedi or sith if one is not playing the power classes, Clone, Wook and SBD.

I advocate either a return to a more reasonable balance state that punishes sith/jedi not using utility, acrobatics, or team mates or a buff of the counter classes so there is actually a rock paper scissors element to gunners and saberists. A return to old cortosis and improved wookie charge would be a start.

Thanks and I hope discussion will be constructive.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

Jiube, I think you took my meaning more towards hard counter. There are various rock paper scissors types and scales.

They don't do it everywhere, and it does not work everywhere. I would argue for a game like MB2 it is actually quite bad philosophy. That is if we talk full classes as hard counters, at least.

Half of the games you listed do not do rock-paper-scissors that much, other half have key gameplay differences that "make rock-paper-scissors great again". Primarily, they allow you affect which "element" you are (rock, paper, or scissors) during the round. MB2 does not allow that for whole classes, by design.

Yeah, which is why I think you're misunderstanding my definition of Rock Paper Scissors. There is no reason things have to be hard counters to one another, and no reason things have to be completely weak to another. If the Scissors are sharp enough, it could cut rock. If the paper fast enough, it could wrap around the scissors blades. If a rock moves correctly, it could shred the paper. There is far more complexity that that which is why I mentioned those games. They all do varying degrees of rock paper scissors both mechanically and scale. Rock-Paper-Scissors gameplay casts a very wide net of things you can do with it game design wise. It is, however, immediately in place when you have any class based, hero based, unit based game system. The only differences are the mechanic and scales associated with them. The rock paper scissors still exists, just on different levels or planes. Finding the right one is the key.

The moment you have classes with roles in a game, you have rock paper scissors. The moment you have heroes with roles, you have rock paper scissors. The team comp determines how much of each you have at your disposal. Intensity and scale determines how hard the counters are in each instance. Some can be hard counters, soft counters, direct counters, indirect counters. But that is all still rock paper scissors gameplay.

The fact that MB2 is assymmetrical means that out of the box it is rock paper scissors. Then you have another set of classes on top of that, where you oepn another box of tools. All of those tools combine in hundreds of ways to make the gameplay unique and fun. If we remove the rock paper scissors and extra tools while putting them on every class and spread the spread the wealth too far around that it is no longer a team game, you don't rely on what your allies has, and it becomes a solo experience because you yourself have all the tools needed to deal with every situation regardless of what class you chose.

I suggest the devs listen to people like Achilles, hes not affiliated to one side and more open minded than most of the people in this thread.

No, every time someone disagrees with him its "1v1 me" and ill prove you wrong, rather than proving it through arguments even though 10 people tell him his numbers are wrong.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

I believe the only time I've suggested 1v1ing me, was on 3 occasions: 1) I stated that SBD was overpowered, and Stassin didn't believe me, so I had him 1v1 me with me on SBD. 2) I suggested that clone blobs cannot be pushed on reaction, to which I asked literally anyone to try it and prove me wrong, not even Hexodious could do it. 3) I suggested that gunning in MB2 is more guesswork than aim, to which I had proven to a number of people including Hexodious.

Asking people to step in game to test something, is not the same as '1v1 me bro', not that you would be a challenge to begin with

 

[Flooven]

Guesswork makes it sounds random, I feel it's more prediction. Still, nonetheless, it's not as aim oriented as other games. Most of the time you can win a close quarters gunning duel by holding your mouse still and strafing back and forth trying to predict their position.

 

[Noob]

just 1v1 me mace ill destroy you right here for calling me out

devs pls go back to 1.3 (or further tbh) and rework the game from there. a lot of features were kinda just glued onto MBII and don't feel like they belong. Flinch and jedi damage reduction being some examples

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

devs pls go back to 1.3 (or further tbh) and rework the game from there. a lot of features were kinda just glued onto MBII and don't feel like they belong. Flinch and jedi damage reduction being some examples

We'll see how Tempest's build works out first, give him the benefit of the doubt, he's put a huge amount of work into the patch, and it has a lot of potential. If that doesn't work out, then I'm all for going back to 1.3.

 

[Jiube]

Jiube, I think you took my meaning more towards hard counter. There are various rock paper scissors types and scales.

Okay, I think I see, what you mean. It looks like by rock-paper-scissors you mean the same thing I refer to as assymetrical gameplay in general.

So push is cheaty?

Just a little bit. The problem I have with it is that it has ability to completely incapacitate opponent for a few seconds, has wide range and angle, and it activates instantly; the worst downside it has is that it opens you up to the shots, which means damage to HP, which is permanent for the round, so it is risky. But this whole situation leaves only one valid strategy for both sides: gunner walks as much as he can and dodges only when he has to and when he thinks he can't get pushed, jedi tries to catch the moments when gunner is running so that he could get an upper hand and (lets be honest) secure an almost sure kill. I think it limits the potential playfield both sides might have here. Gunner pretty much has to walk and occasionally run, jedi mostly has to rely on a lucky guess when he pushes. Boring for both sides.

While gunners prevent you from swinging your saber with one luckshot, this is not cheaty? You must be joking...

They say luck is also part skill... Luck can also work both ways. Even to be able to make the kind of lucky shots you are talking about the gunner needs to be able to shoot pretty well on a pure skill level. I could also say the same about lucky dodges by a jedi. But if you die constantly to those lucky shots you are doing something wrong as a jedi.

I genuinely disagree it is only a luckshot that works currently. But if you leave force powers and nades out of the game and leave only the jedi's saber aginst the gunner's gun, coupled with the on-foot mobility of both classes, the fight looks pretty fair. And with current flinch and deterministically variable draining mechanics, it is a good kind of fair: there are many approaches jedi can take to win, there are many counterplays gunner can do. So now the balancing comes to fixing abilities.

Gunner has many advantages: nades and blobs (knockdown means), range advantage, the fact they put an attacking jedi on a timer, flinch mechanics at close range. Jedi also has many advantages: force powers, superior movement speed (to most classes, especially when the opponent is trying to shoot), FP regen, the overall endurance.

Without push and pull they could just storm mindless at you which they do at the moment anyways.

Just push and slash them. If they are walking - just slash them, but moving a bit smarter. Works now, will work even with the idea I have in mind.

Blobs apparently? Of course blobs need a change, if you suggest changing push you should see the problem with blobs.

I personally never had issues with dodging blobs. It is true blobs are almost as instant as push, and have much longer range, but unlike push they are hard to aim, they can be pushed (although, on accident, usually), they have a very long cooldown and their amount is limited. Although coupled with clone rifle 2-3 or a decent teammate they become deadly. Just like nades. Or... push + saber. Although, there are indeed less things that a sith actively could do to defend himself against blob, and it may indeed be a problem. On the other hand, it does not guarantee a kill, and is quite hard to use.

It is tough... Further thought and discussion needed.

I think saberist vs gunner is at the moment heavy luckbased, no skill involved on both sides.

This is only partially true. There are definitely some pure luck aspects that indeed need fixing. And it is also true these very things make it difficult to judge whether balance is good at the moment. A good example of this pure luck-based mechanic is the situation with push, actually. The one I described above. There is no telling when a gunner starts running, there is no telling when a jedi is about to push, both have an instant impact and often a significant one, up to the point when it can deside the result of the enounter in one instant. Having no windup time means players have to guess (with the sparse exceptions being the situations, when a jedi can't push, because he is swinging, for instance). This mixes everything down to raw luck, and I don't think it has a place here, especially since being like that it leaves barely any room for any mindgames even.

I guess i know which faction you belong...

I belong to no such thing.

Saberists dont need nerf right now, its the gunners which need to get nerfed or reworked, after that we can talk again about saberists.

I believe it is a mistake to split them like that. Both are parts of a whole interconnected complex system. Therefore, the fix needs to be applied to the whole system rather than specific parts. Or at least, the direction changes are moving in needs to always take the whole into account, even if the "surface" action would seem to be just a slight change in one small part of the system.

 

[Tempest]

Haha. As usual (except maybe in 1.3 where everyone was somewhat forced to admit jedi was "at least balanced"), 45% of people think jedi is OP, 45% think it's too weak, 10% think it's roughly balanced. Really, that gives little motivation to listen to anything but the 10%. That isn't right of course, since everyone does give valid points about some features being too strong or weak; but the overall deduction that it is OP or UP is simplistic and almost all the time very biased.

I think a more accurate thing would be saying that people are split on jedi being OP/too strong but the issue is still with flinch primarily. Flinch is one of the various binary mechanics in MB2 currently. It either works or it doesn't (consistency aside). There's no timing actually required (yes there's timing regarding the circumstances in which it can activate but not in regards to skill requirement).

Nutshell of stuff in the works for open mode (for saber vs gunner):

Actual stuff that's been worked on/implemented
1) FP drain caps aren't universal (only apply when blocking). Proj's FP drain is capped outside of IDR (apparently it requires 137 FP to block at point blank and 90+ from one door of hangar to the other). Haven't finished vetting other weapons to see which all are the main problems as far as ezmode FP drains and such.
2) Stop deflect (3) from being able to sit and hold block for 10 years.
3) Make Push/Pull/Lightning/Grip less cheese (i.e. Lightning stun stops as soon as the Sith isn't using lightning anymore; Grip 1 allows victims to retaliate as soon as it deactivates, no more being able to push 8x in a row back-to-back)
4) Making FP drains partially dependent on where the jedi is looking (i.e. they take less from those they're facing, more from those that are flanking). Edit: Could combine this with higher overall FP drains/tweaked regen as a replacement of the current low FP damage/regen stuff?
5) Instead of flat damage reduction vs everything by default, jedi would have directional damage reduction. If they aren't paying attention/aren't aware of a blaster shot zipping toward their head, why should there be some arbitrary denial toward the shot?

Ideas that have been discussed or that are still early-WIP (in no particular order of priority/work done)
1) Blobs not doing knockdown in all circumstances by default. Combine both blobs into one (possibly). Default activation is charging -> if you hold it long enough, it can do a knockdown, otherwise it's just a stagger (can still tap-shot midair people to knockdown though!). This keeps the effectiveness of it but actually allows for some counterplay besides jumping and using cheese mentioned in point 3 in prior section.
2) Some weapon tuning. Bowcaster rate of fire, EE3 insta scope->sniping (why is this still a thing when it got removed from proj?), such and such things
3) Making highest effectiveness of force powers exclusive from highest effectiveness of saber skills/perks (attunement discussions). Force-oriented builds would no longer be gimmicky by nature.
4) Adjustments to flinch
5) Stuff regarding things like sec-frag and its effectiveness compared to primary/other nades

Mostly just trying to get everything back to a (mostly) solid baseline so we can actually get MB2 progressing forward instead of sideways/loopdeelooping all over the place.

Anyway, working on dinner at the moment so that's all I can really throw out at the moment.

Edit2:
Having stuff like pistols having low non-headshot damage, accuracy increasing damage (i.e. walk = more accuracy = more damage compared to someone spray n' praying), accuracy in general being more relevant (i.e. if you have 10 shots in a clip and you hit 8 in a row, brownie points vs shooting a couple bursts and missing all of them), and things like that are also on the board. My favorite thing that I'm looking at is ARC dual pistols getting bonus damage if you hit someone in the back with a bounce hit.

 

[Preston]

ehhhh well see how this goes

 

[vasya]

sooo, any estimated release date? summer, autum, 2025?

 

[SK5]

Push...

Just a little bit. The problem I have with it is that it has ability to completely incapacitate opponent for a few seconds, has wide range and angle, and it activates instantly; the worst downside it has is that it opens you up to the shots, which means damage to HP, which is permanent for the round, so it is risky. But this whole situation leaves only one valid strategy for both sides: gunner walks as much as he can and dodges only when he has to and when he thinks he can't get pushed, jedi tries to catch the moments when gunner is running so that he could get an upper hand and (lets be honest) secure an almost sure kill. I think it limits the potential playfield both sides might have here. Gunner pretty much has to walk and occasionally run, jedi mostly has to rely on a lucky guess when he pushes. Boring for both sides.

The fact that you can counter push by easily walking and it incapacitates the jedi too for a good second and a half i would say its even on both sides.
Jedi get fucked if they fail the push, gunners get fucked if they fail to walk.

 

[Chorb]

My favorite thing that I'm looking at is ARC dual pistols getting bonus damage if you hit someone in the back with a bounce hit.

What is the role of the new saberist in the open? Are we returning to a more agile 1.3 version or will we stick whit "everyone is a tank, but game dosent allow me to be one". If we are going to stick whit Stassin vision of the game, judging by your changelist, what you just wrote is completley counterproductive. If the saberist is ment to be a tank that allows gunners to capitalize on space they create, ARC bounce pistols and posion darts cannot exist in their current state. Its nice you recognized that blobs are preventing this from being a thing tho.
They coudl work if saberist had a lot more FP and was actually a tank character that takes a lot of focus fire to take down. But whit the current state, a saberist cannot hold ground vs darts or bounce which makes their role useless. Why play a tank that does not secure a foothold and is low threat. Id rather have another gunner on my team.

I understand the forcepower nerfs as they are frustrating to go up against, but this is again pointless in the same patch as you heavily nerf the class and flinch still exists in limited form. Saberist cannot play the tank role at all whit the current changes, and now you will not be able to play support either. And you can forget about trying to be an assasin type of character whit flinch.

I feel like we return to the same problem always. Flinch is a huge design issue, and it requires the entire game to be rebalanced around it. Nobody wants to see all the cool mb2 features go like darts, blobs and bounce. So why not simply remove it and iterate whit another solution.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Jedi/Sith imo should be versatile.

Blobs should go, they don't fit with Star Wars, and are weird gimmicks that honestly could be replaced with better things. Poison Darts should see a rework. SBD should see a rework. Honestly all weapons should see a bit of a rework, including Jedi/Sith. Not extensive, but there definitely needs to be more skill involved in saber vs gun/gun vs gun. At the moment, numbers and classes mean a lot more than individual skill at the higher levels.

I don't mind teamwork, in-fact I encourage it, but forcing teamwork through some poorly thought-out rock paper scissors theme is nonsensical.

 

[Jiube]

Jedi get fucked if they fail the push, gunners get fucked if they fail to walk.

The problem is not the fact the trade-off is not fair. The problem is that with no windup animations or some changes to the mechanics itself it is almost completely luck-based guesswork (except from a marginally small amount of mindgame). This is why I find it boring.

One thing to be very careful about, the walking movement speed gunner is limited to due to the danger of push significantly affects the current standard workflow of pure saber vs blaster mechanics. If it would not be needed too much to counter push, most gunner classes will still have to walk to shoot accurately, but still... If gunner would be allowed to run more often it might make it problematic for jedi to get to close range. On the other hand, all the other abilities (like Force Lightening with it's stun and Force Speed) may become more common and useful not for the fact they are cheesy or OP in some way (like Lightening), but specifically for gap-closing purposes.

I would like to explicitly point out any changes would need to be done with extreme care and surgical precision.

will we stick whit "everyone is a tank, but game dosent allow me to be one".

First of all, forceusers were not meant to be specifically tanks in a traditional meaning of the word. Secondly, game does allow you to be tanky. Just learn more about the way force drains are currently affected by your own actions. Once you nail down how drains and regen are affected you will understand forceusers currently have huge sustain potential in a variety of different situations. As long as you play correctly and undrstand how mechanics work.

Jedi/Sith imo should be versatile.

^^ This. ^^

 

[Rosh+]

I have little problem with the balance between Gunners, and Jedi at this point, but maybe that's because of the way I play, and maybe also, it is because of the way I understand Jedi/Sith's gameplay mechanics in Open.

The main problem with Jedi/Sith, is not the class itself, but the people playing the class. I notice far too often, that the lolezinstantdeathstick lightsaber makes most players really fucking stupid. As soon as (almost) anybody gets in range of a Gunner, they immediately adopt the thought process of: 'WOW I REALLY HOPE I CAN GET A LUCKY SWING IN OR HALFSWING OFF THE CONSTANT GUNFIRE FOR AN INSTANT KILL LOLOOLO', and 'oh look hes dead finally but whyt do i have 6 hp oh hey look another gunner'.

The only reason I notice this is because I play often times without a lightsaber, only using force powers, and I can get K/Ds of 20/0-2 in short matches and 40+/2-6 through creative use of push, pull, lightning/speed 3, sense 1, and melee in longer ones. I've also noticed that if I adopt the same tactics I use as a forcewhore (Looking through walls with sense 1 and setting up ambushes/being purely gunner support) into my general Sith/Jedi playstyle, I can obtain ridiculous K/Ds (I'm talking like 50+/0-2 in less than 15 rounds on a well popped server, like AOD Pande mainly because nobody checks the corners at all).

To those who think that Jedi/Sith is harder to play than Gunner: If you have played Gunner, you will know that the Gunner's main weakness is the fact that the Gunner does not have an inbuilt Wallhack. If you do not use this Wallhack as a Jedi/Sith, you are a dumbass, and you shouldn't be playing either until you reevaluate your life choices. Seriously, Sense 1 makes Jedi/Sith the easiest to play shit in the game because you instantly become the best ambush class ever, with an instant kill weapon. If you hide around a corner, and you KNOW somebody is coming, there is literally no chance you can fail an ambush, unless you're fighting another saber user.

To those who think that Gunner is harder to play than Jedi/Sith: If you move slow, and check corners, you should be fine. You can literally down a Jedi in two or so headshots, It's not hard. Aim is something you can easily practice, and if the Jedi/Sith isn't using the duals(flinch seems to happen way less with them), there's a good chance that if you aren't stupid, and you pace yourself, that a Jedi/Sith isn't going to kill you in a 1v1 scenario, given that most Jedi/Sith are incredibly stupid. Unless you are a Soldier, anyways, but if you can't get a Jedi 1v1 in 3 tries, I think that there may be something wrong with your aim.

The game is pretty good in balance when it comes to Gunner vs Jedi/Sith. It's human error that seems to doom most players to death in a lot of scenarios. Whether it be a Gunner with bad aim, or a Jedi with bad game sense, one or the other will eventually piss it up, and then the shouting contest starts.

The solution to most Gunner's problems is to get better aim/game sense, and the solution to most Jedi/Sith's problems is just to not be an idiot, and take your time. Each round is the slowest five minutes of your life, just relax.

I'd also like to point out that Jedi/Sith is incredibly versatile. In my time playing, I've done a number of things. Mainline support, scary Sith/Jedi(move towards enemies in cover to get them to leave cover for fear of being smacked with the ezstick), defense, attack, scouting with sense 1, force/melee specialist, duelist, etc. You can easily keep main in DOTF locked tight as a forcewhore by lightning pushing opposing gunners, then while they spend the next 3 seconds on the ground, your gunners can open fire on them, and easily kill them.

Coming from the above paragraph, you guys also need to realize playing as Jedi/Sith is not about getting kills half the time, that's just a bonus. It's about making sure your gunners don't die. You are their lifeline. Without gunner support you'd get overwhelmed, without Jedi/Sith support, the gunners would be easily killed by their Jedi/Sith. One can't live without the other without taking some hits. It may be alien to some of you, but Open is a gametype where you play as a TEAM.

I think balance at this time is perfect as it is, though I do agree that Push may need a nerf, and I do think SBD needs some sort of nerf given that in the hands of any competent player, SBD is an unstoppable death tank with no equal. It's like condensing 20 Dick Kickem's into a small cat, and then finding him standing on a mound of dead rodents in your kitchen later in the day. Also deflect 3. Shit's ridiculous.

Anyways, sorry for my absence. My computer has been busted for a short while (something disconnected inside had to take my computer apart), but I should be fine, now.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Coming from the above paragraph, you guys also need to realize playing as Jedi/Sith is not about getting kills half the time, that's just a bonus. It's about making sure your gunners don't die. You are their lifeline. Without gunner support you'd get overwhelmed, without Jedi/Sith support, the gunners would be easily killed by their Jedi/Sith. One can't live without the other without taking some hits. It may be alien to some of you, but Open is a gametype where you play as a TEAM.

I think balance at this time is perfect as it is, though I do agree that Push may need a nerf, and I do think SBD needs some sort of nerf given that in the hands of any competent player, SBD is an unstoppable death tank with no equal. It's like condensing 20 Dick Kickem's into a small cat, and then finding him standing on a mound of dead rodents in your kitchen later in the day. Also deflect 3. Shit's ridiculous.

Yes, we understand that. Jedi/Sith is a support role in this game. We're not denying that. Yes, Jedi/Sith is relatively balanced for competitive play. What we're arguing about, is the fact that it *is* a support role, and that gunner vs lightsaber isn't consistently skill-based. The engagement of a 1v1 with a Jedi against a Soldier isn't really skillful on either side.

That is the problem we're talking about.

 

[k4far]

Yes, we understand that. Jedi/Sith is a support role in this game.

How is Jedi/Sith a support class?
- in most of my games loner just slaughters half of the team on his own.
.
.
.
Lol.
​

Jedi/Sith imo should be versatile.

Jedi/Sith are versatile that is for sure! (You can pretend to be a support :']
with Yellow1, Lightning1, Push3 and Jump3 + everything for swordsmanship you can protect your team and turn in to attacker at will... you can hold on your own.) Wook might be harsh.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

How is Jedi/Sith a support class?
- in most of my games loner just slaughters half of the team on his own.
.
.
.
Lol.
​

Jedi/Sith are versatile that is for sure! (You can pretend to be a support :']
with Yellow1, Lightning1, Push3 and Jump3 + everything for swordsmanship you can protect your team and turn in to attacker at will... you can hold on your own.) Wook might be harsh.

I'm not trying to be egotistical when I say that I am one of the very best saberists in the entire game. At the highest level of play, when you have good gunners on one team, good gunners on the other, Jedi can *NOT* actually fight. You cannot fight a good SBD, or a couple of good clones, or even a semi-organized team as a Jedi, no matter how good you may be or what build you may have.

There are players in this game who stand absolutely no chance against me in a 1v1 on any class, however there is far too much power in numbers, where I am forced to rely upon my team to kill these people should they start picking counter-classes and working together. You can lightning kill one CR2 clone, maybe even two if they're bad, but three is an impossible number.

So yes, at a certain point, you can *only* play a support role on Jedi/Sith, and being a support Jedi is infinitely easier than actually learning how to duel/saber properly. So at the highest level of competitive play, you'll see garbage saberists surrounded by extremely good gunners, yet you cannot do anything about it with your own lightsaber, and must rely upon your team.


The inverse is also an issue. What happens when you have no real team, yet the enemy is Jedi spamming? The Jedi themselves are rather bad, but numbers+push mean you can't get anywhere. What are you to do? Most competent players at this point would pick SBD, or BH. Why? Because this game isn't balanced around skill, it is balanced around numbers and rock-paper-scissors classes.

This is the issue I have been getting at for a very long time, only now people are starting to realize it.


The counter arguments for balancing all classes is that 'You might as well make them the same thing then' which is stupid, because that is a non-sequitur. The other counter argument I've heard 10,000 times is that 'teamwork should > skill' which is a moot point, since if you make the individual player shine more, then weaker players would band together and adopt superior teamwork to beat him. So if you planned on using those arguments, use a different one.

 

[Liniyka_xddd]

You can lightning kill one CR2 clone, maybe even two if they're bad, but three is an impossible number.

So what? I'm sure if the clones are bad then you can actually kill them all. If they are average, then you will obviously get killed. So, what's the point you are making? 1 sith should be able to easily kill 3 players? Let's see...

So yes, at a certain point, you can *only* play a support role on Jedi/Sith

Uh, of course? I mean even as a gunner you can't exactly just go and kill 3 enemies on your own. I just can't see that happening, unless, of course, they are super bad.

The inverse is also an issue. What happens when you have no real team, yet the enemy is Jedi spamming? The Jedi themselves are rather bad, but numbers+push mean you can't get anywhere. What are you to do? Most competent players at this point would pick SBD, or BH. Why? Because this game isn't balanced around skill, it is balanced around numbers and rock-paper-scissors classes.

I don't think jedi spam works anymore dude, especially if the saberists are bad. The counters to that are not limited to SBD and BH, it can also be solds, solds+commander, droideka and even mando with a flamethrower if they can position themselves correctly. Also, even though BH is good vs jedi, it only has 1 life which can be taken away in 1 lightsaber swing. So I wouldn't call it a direct counter.
However, I do agree on SBD part. This class is not only very effective but also piss easy (and boring, imo) to play, so I would love to see it nerfed. I would say that wookiee is fine vs gunners but maybe can use some tuning vs saberists. SBD and wookiee are the ONLY 2 direct counters in this game that I can think of. Oh, also blobs I guess. Blobs need to change, yeah.
Nerf these 3 classes (in terms of anti-saberist ability) and it will be perfectly OK. Oh, and don't forget Lightning 1. That cancer needs to go as well.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

It won't be perfect. Flinch, and the lack of a proper saber vs gun mechanic is an issue. Sure, you can remove stupid gimmicks, and you should, but you won't solve everything.

Even a bad/average clone is dangerous with the power of luck. All it takes is a lucky blob at a bad time, or 2 lucky flinches as they wildly spray their rifle around the room. Without the lightning gimmick, it is unlikely you'll succeed.



The thing that separates good players from average players, is not really aim or mechanical skill (outside of dueling) but more or less map awareness and knowledge of MB2's many methods of cheese.

 

[Hellion]

Yeah flinching isn't really one of my top complaints when I'm playing as a saberist against a gunner. It's easy to get around by just moving, juking and doing one basic yellow swing to end it.