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i already gave my feedback and even mace liked it, i do agree some have a personal discord with certain people but im not gonna get involved in that.
Gas Stassin: A Modest Proposal
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i already gave my feedback and even mace liked it, i do agree some have a personal discord with certain people but im not gonna get involved in that.
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Talking like this is likely to make them feel defensive. Someone's gotta deescalate. Try something like "Thank you for trying to give feedback, but I think you've made a mistake because you're being an asshole."
I'm only half-kidding.
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one thing i can say is that people are *bitching* because they feel like the feedback that they have gave before wasnt taken in consideration, just like how ive always stated the problem with this community always being so divided by these toxic groups that we have around us, among other things that ive already stated earlier in this thread, its hard to please everyone i get that, but theres gotta be a much better way to handle it than just rambling at each other faces.Talking like this is likely to make them feel defensive. Someone's gotta deescalate. Try something like "Thank you for trying to give feedback, but I think you've made a mistake because you're being an asshole."
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You were fine as you usually are Kimmy. You just said things how you saw it, but you didn't say it in a way that was directly attacking anyone. Which is how you should be doing it. There was a bit of frustration in there but that doesn't bother any of us. You had your points clearly listed and why you felt that way on each thing. A lot of my response wasn't just for you but for many people to see to understand our side a bit more.
This is what I was trying to get at with a portion of my original post a bit. How does anyone in the community know it wasn't taken into consideration? If you write it down on the forums there are a good chance multiple developers saw it. I usually write things about levels down if I see things being said by multiple people, a good idea someone had, something someone noted needs fixing, whatever. However, sometimes that feedback or idea is pretty vague and I have to expand it further or incorporate ideas from 3 people into one thing for it to work. Keeping track of what came from who, especially when on things like DOTF for example it came from the feedback of 30+ people, would be a pain in the butt. I personally would love to have everyone see where I and other developers pull things, especially so community members can actually go and say "hey that was my idea! they made it!" and have actual proof of it. It just sadly isn't feasible though, same with responding to everything everyone says. There isn't enough time in the day.
We might take something into consideration but decide not to use it, or go a different route. A lot can happen but when we take something into consideration and then decide to do something else, it isn't the same as not listening at all.
I personally love it when someone thinks of something cool/good that I haven't thought of for a level. I often can't do cool things though
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no
Smee
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Stassin isn't having his name "associated with genocide", the thread title is a clear edgy joke.
Mace isn't being criticised because of people not liking dotf2, but because he removed the original dotf from the game.
And nobody is coming to rape your dog.
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( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡° )
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Even though you said like 30 posts ago that 'half the server' agrees new DOTF is bad. Nice damage control
Smee
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Yes
Even if nudotf was actually good (it isn't), it still doesn't play like old dotf. People would still want old dotf back. Now, the fact that the map is bad makes the backlash stronger.
Um, sweety, that's not damage control. People don't like the new dotf. It is shit. However, there are plenty of shit maps in mb2. The problem is replacing good maps with shit ones. That's why Mace is getting criticised.
Even if nudotf was actually good (it isn't), it still doesn't play like old dotf. People would still want old dotf back. Now, the fact that the map is bad makes the backlash stronger.
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>Critising maps for being bad despite having no actual experience in mapping
>Calling DOTF shit even though it's the most played map
Mace said he wanted to bring old DOTF back, but with improvements. Plus he wanted to give new DOTF chance. But I think it's threads and replies like these that just reinforce Maces decision on deleting the old map.
Smee
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There's a reason there aren't dotf 24/7 servers anymore. It's just not a very popular map now. Is it even the most played map? I don't know, I see deathstar just as often as dotf, if not more.
And you don't need experience in something to know if it's bad. You don't need to have a michelin star to know if a restaurant serves you under cooked chicken. Also, yeah I imagine it does reinforce Mace's decision to delete the good map, as the reason he did was because he knew, if good dotf was still in the game, nu dotf would be played as much as erevana. That's what community feedback is saying. *shrugs shoulders*. The right response the community not liking a new map would be to add back the old map, not scold them for not liking the new map.
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I don't mind you criticising maps for their issues; they do exist. Expect youre still in no position to push your opinion as facts, since you have no mapping experience.
Smee
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Appeal to authority logical fallacy? HMMMMMMmmmm
DaloLorn
Movie Battles II Team Retired
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It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. Unfortunately for you, the inverse is also the case, and you have made mistakes of your own. (Also, I'm getting my universes mixed up, which can't end well.)
When you initially derailed the thread (more so than it had already been derailed, anyways), you were already riding on a steady stream of hyperbole and willful ignorance with regards to both the fate of DotF and the development process in general. Explanations were made, in the vain hope that the hyperbole was an overreaction and the ignorance could be dispelled by new information. You then began to show signs that you didn't really care what happened - so long as you got your way in the end - but it seemed like you might just calm down until Mace came in. His approach was suboptimal, at best - instead of calmly reinforcing my own defense of him, he antagonized you further in a way that, to the untrained observer (highly untrained, in this case), could have been seen as an "I know best, screw you" attitude. Nevertheless, I suspect that most outside parties would have realized that his response is logically sound, so the damage done was reasonably low.
I say "reasonably low" here because he gave you a chance to repeat your prior hyperbole and compound it with deliberately misinterpreted statistics to support your claims. When it was pointed out that you were misreading the poll, you continued undeterred, attempting to play the victim card as Mace continued to display an increasing frustration with your stubbornness. Amusingly, you then simultaneously tried to explain to Mace that his deteriorating attitude shrouded the logic of his claims and tried to deny the validity of said logic in the same short post. After his response to that, you felt you were in an ideal position to discredit Mace's argument, implying that his frustration was indicative of an excessive emotional attachment which was clouding his judgment.
It is at this point that you were at your strongest - for once, it seemed like you may be on to something, doubly so when Mace chose to "take a stance" and delete his old DotF files. Despite the fact that Defiant and Stassin supported his decision, and his own claims that "my mood right now is not even close to raging", the only impression it made was that of an angry and spiteful developer trying to win an argument by rendering your possible victory meaningless. It was a tremendous PR victory for you, as you could now point at his actions as proof that you had been right all along, but at what cost? Old DotF was, at least as far as we can tell (I do not for a moment believe that that was the only copy of the files), gone, your primary objective was no longer attainable.
And what are you doing now, except trying to make yourself look better and Mace look worse? Yes, Tylenol has made an ad hominem attack against your arguments, and that's not helping at all. It doesn't change the fact that, despite your efforts to disguise it, you are both defeated and misguided in this matter, and if any of this has really gotten through to you...
*waves hand* You want to go home and rethink your life.
(When you get back, we can start discussing this like civilized people, and ask nicely if there are any backups left to restore old DotF from. Preferably in another thread, because this one has been derailed quite enough already.)
Smee
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The fact that you (a former mb2 dev) are suggesting that the mb2 community should BEG a developer to re-add a map is EVERYTHING WRONG with the state of mb2. Feedback should be taken seriously. I don't think you are taking the feedback seriously. Are you? And what do you mean I derailed the thread? All of my points were related to devs needing to take community feedback.
Also, more proof that devs don't take feedback seriously is that this vote was ignored. Bullet speeds
DaloLorn
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I am. I am also taking your current relations with Mace seriously, and suggesting that you be the one to extend an olive branch because his record so far doesn't indicate that he will do so unprompted.
But if you feel that this bears too close a resemblance to begging, I suppose we shall have to take him at his word when he says old DotF has been completely deleted. Not much else that can be done without continuing to escalate hostilities.
(For what little it's worth, I made similar attempts to be the voice of reason and separate rationality from irrationality in the 'Meme Wars', but Puppytine was unwilling to accept my counsel. As I recall, the result was that the conflict continued until Viserys and Spaghetti left the team - granted, not exclusively because of that - and Puppytine never got what he wanted. Do you want to follow in his footsteps, or are you going to accept that neither side can win an argument when it is in this state and work to bring it back into a more useful form?)
EDIT: Missed a few things that were added to your post:
Although technically true, I think we can both agree that it has gone way off the original topic by now. (I'm not exactly rerailing it myself.
)I don't entirely agree with it myself, but it has been indicated over the past days that the feedback of high-end players in a poll's target audience is weighed more heavily than absolute numbers. This stems from a belief that those players have a more in-depth understanding of the mechanics involved and can provide a more informed opinion on the matter. (Also, the polls aren't the only method used to decide things, which is something I do entirely agree with.)
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It definitely wasn't out of rage. It was simply me going "Alright, I can be unreasonable too". I am not someone who cares too much for diplomacy in these matters because I have found that even if it works those people just come back a few weeks later to do the same thing and don't learn. This is like time 3 for smee. Now smee will never get what he wants, because he hasn't learned to be reasonable.
This is a perfect example of what I was saying earlier. People can't possibly know how decisions were made and need to stop assuming like they do. Several devs, including myself, have said that that poll was used to get a baseline. There were enough people who thought they were too slow, so we decided to give it a try in open beta to see if actually playing it changed peoples opinion or not. If after the poll and open beta the majority of people hated it we wouldn't have done it. We tried open beta and the feedback we got was that the change was positive. So we kept it, and the poll after launch corroborates that trend. It is nice to see that people are still trying to manipulate people to their side rather than showing the full story even after all that we have said. Our process as developers was the sound, proper way to do it. Yet we get attacked "devs dont take feedback srsly and ignore everyone"..... riiiiiiighht.
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