Gameplay Direction Post 1.4.3

Gameplay Direction Post 1.4.3​

Hi Guys, I am Hexodious - In the last few weeks I've taken over as Gameplay Lead for Moviebattles II and its occured to me that we've never actually told you where we are headed or why we make specific changes in regards to gameplay. I'd like to use this as an opportunity to change that for us as a team to be more transparent moving forwards as we look to improve the game throughout future patches. This will also allow you to know what we are looking to change, and what kind of feedback we are looking for.

In 1.4.4 we are looking to freeze a solid core for Jedi/Sith in place so we won't have to touch these mechanics for at least a few major patches - This includes: Saber vs Saber, Saber vs Gun and Force Regeneration. I've been looking at a lot of the feedback we've received for 1.4.3 as well as playing a lot of Jedi/Sith in this build and given everyone's experience with 1.4.3, we want to improve on the mechanics that were introduced to make them smoother and a lot more engaging. The goal for Jedi/Sith is to improve their staying power while reducing their ability to retreat while under pressure. 1.4.3's regeneration mechanic did allow this to some extent but was too punishing for players who were trying to support their team.

Below I will break down the core changes we are exploring for 1.4.4.
Please note all of the below is subject to change before release.

FP Regeneration and Drains
Based on 1.4.3's feedback we will be tweaking the FP Regeneration mechanics so that you don't have to worry about holding block, in fact we encourage it.

We will still have 3 states of FP Drain:

• Defenseless (Saber Down/Melee/Idle/Meditate): Base FP Drains for weapons.
• Autoblock (Running): Increased FP Drains for weapons.
• Block: Greatly Decreased FP Drains for weapons.

And there will still be 4 states of FP Regeneration, but we have modified them slightly:

• Meditate:
  • FP Regeneration: Highest, Transition: Ramps up over time, Restrictions: Stationary.
• Defenseless (Saber Down/Melee/Idle):
  • FP Regeneration: Base, Transition: Ramps up over time, Restrictions: Can't Block.
• Defending (Autoblock/Holding Block):
  • FP Regeneration: Slightly lower than base, Transition: Instant.,Restrictions: None.
• Deflecting (Actively Being Shot):
  • FP Regeneration: Greatly lower than base, Transition: Instant Debuff, Duration: 3 seconds (duration can be refreshed each shot, and FP Bar's hue is darkened to indicate debuff is present), Restrictions: Only applies while holding Block.

This combination of drains and states allow us to still have the benefits of really low FP Drains while blocking but doesn't needlessly punish you for holding block while you are not being shot at, whether you are dueling the enemy saberists or supporting your back line. We haven't got the numbers quite in place yet, but after initial testing this feels much smoother and allows the Jedi to have much more freedom while still pushing towards a more active responsibility to manage their FP.



Sense
Sense is a highly debated force power, many would like the power removed completely while others see it as a staple ability that should not be touched. Based on the feedback we've seen we have decided to keep the ability largely similar to how it is, but adjusting how its activated and the durations. In 1.4.4 Sense will tie more into the FP management direction we want to see Jedi's moving towards by using a similar mechanic to Force Speed, another toggled ability but where the duration is solely based on your remaining FP pool.

• Rank 1: Activation Cost: 15FP, Tick Cost: 5FP, 20FP grants you 2s of Sense (equal to the current implementation, but you can have it on for longer if you wish to spend more FP).
• Rank 2: Activation Cost: 10FP, Tick Cost: 5FP, 20FP grants you 3s of Sense (an increase over the current implementation, and you can still choose to have it on longer if you wish to spend more FP).
• Rank 3: Activation Cost: 5FP, Tick Cost: 5FP, 20FP grants you 4s of Sense (a large decrease over the current implementation, but you can still choose to have it on longer if you wish to spend more FP).

These changes allow sense to still be used as an information gathering tool, but encourages smart use of the ability only having it on for as long as you need. Having sense on for a long time while setting up that ambush will leave you starved for FP, greatly increasing the enemy's chance to counter you.


Wall-grab
This ability is a real life-saver while moving around a map and dropping to lower levels, especially on maps like Deathstar. But there are certain players who like to use its ability to hang onto walls forever, often in unreachable locations that cause it to be used in ways we do not intend or to setup lengthy ambushes. As such, the new wall-grab mechanics will actively drain FP slowly while holding onto a wall, automatically drops you upon reaching 0 FP. Also, wall-grab can no longer be used to regenerate FP after bunny hopping.

These changes will still allow the ability to be used as a safe-fall but should prevent poorly planned ambushes. Players will need to better manage their FP pools by choosing the right moment to setup an ambush.


Saber Perks
We've been here before. While Saber vs Saber perks offer a nice diversity between the styles the Saber vs Gun perks adversely change the gameplay dynamics we'd like to see during Saber vs Gun fights. For this reason Saber vs Gun perks won't be included in future builds. Expect refinements to the Saber System and updated Saber vs Saber perks in 1.4.4.


Deflect
This is another ability that greatly benefits from the reduced Block drains and as such we've made some tweaks while updating the mechanics to be less ping dependent. In 1.4.3 Cyan had the ability to deflect by simply holding attack while blocking, this allowed the player to focus entirely on aiming but was too powerful with continuous FP regeneration (even at slow speeds). We liked the quality of life this provided and have applied it to all ranks of deflect (with the Cyan deflect perk being removed). Deflect is in all cases activated by holding attack while blocking and pauses FP regeneration.

• Rank 1: Rapidly Drains FP while held, Cannot be used inside IDR.
• Rank 2: Slowly Drains FP while held, Can be used inside IDR, Cannot be used inside Flinch range.
• Rank 3: Does not Drain FP while held, Can be used inside IDR, Cannot be used inside Flinch range.

Deflecting fits the Jedi fantasy perfectly and gives them a great way to support allies at range beyond push and sense. Now the Jedi must make an active choice to pause their FP regeneration completely in order to reflect shots at the enemy. This still makes Jedi want to wisely time their Deflects as holding it down during a full barrage will quickly deplete your FP pool, but is much more friendly for players of higher ping. We didn't like how in previous builds deflect could be used to facehug someone to death, and while this issue still remains in the form of random deflects, we are able to minimize it greatly.


What about Gunners?

We are mostly happy with the way a lot of the gun classes work. While there are a few things we'd like to look at *cough* SBD *cough* the following are being changed in 1.4.4:

Projectile Rifle
The initial reason behind the Projectile Rifle FP change was to allow Jedi to survive a pop snipe from around a corner, but pop sniping was very fun to do. In reflection of this we've decided to bring back the protection for running Jedi outside of IDR and allow shot-gun snipes to exist vs running Jedi only. A blocking Jedi will be able to protect against a sniper rifle at any range.

• FP Drain Inside IDR while running: Uncapped.
• FP Drain Outside IDR while running: 40.
• FP Drain Inside IDR while blocking <40.

ARC Westar M5
The ammo on this thing has been too low for too long, we heard you. We are increasing the max ammo capacity of the Westar M5 to be inline with other weapons of its type.

• Ammo 1: From 240 > 360.
• Ammo 2: From 360 > 480.
• Ammo 3: From 480 > 600.

This change is very self-explanatory, we feel that ARCs are in a good place at the moment and are very versatile. But the extremely low ammo count was causing too many issues - especially on higher population servers, where the ARC felt like he couldn't provide supporting cover.

Dodge
While the new dodge mechanic does what we want it to, it feels a bit too cumbersome by forcing you into a movement state based on rank and having to hold a button at the same time. We want Dodge to be used to get through chokepoints and suppressed areas, but not to let you tank huge amounts of shots for free. We also thought it was too hard to glance at your Dodge Points while they were being drawn as small numbers and have re-introduced the Dodge Bar.

In all cases, dodge is activated by holding it and has no movement restrictions.It also cannot be used while scoped.

• Rank 1: Cost: A full bar drains over 1 second. Cannot be used up close.
• Rank 2: Cost: A full bar drains over 2 second. Cannot be used up close.
• Rank 3: Cost: A full bar drains over 3 second. Can be used fairly close.

These changes still allow Dodge to be use as a cover breaker while requiring a manual activation to complete. We wanted to keep the current Disruptors(Stationary/Hitscan) vs Projectile(Mobile/Pop-snipe) balance in Sniper vs Sniper engagements but wanted to still provide an alternative option to fight back. Dodge will allow you break the usual corner-play and press the offensive or fallback into cover while you are being shot at. We are still exploring the Hold mechanic over a form of Toggle, similar to what we've introduced for Sense.

Dash
Bringing dodge into a more manual ability was causing conflicts with Dash and Dodge Points. We want players to be able to Dash freely and not to worry about their remaining Dodge Points, at the same time we didn't like the gameplay double dashing in a row would cause skewing balance in the favour of the Hero. Dash has been changed as follows:

• Rank 1:
  • Dashes a short distance in the current movement direction.
  • 2.5s cool-down.
  • Doesn't share a cool-down with Melee moves.
  • Same activation.
  • Unlimited uses.
• Rank 2:
  • Dodges any incoming blasters for the duration of the dash animation.

The cool-down still allows Dash to be used as an intended quick escape or combat positioning tool but prevents double Dashing to escape instances where you may poorly used the ability. At the same time we didn't want to interrupt fun combos such as Dash into Flying Kick, similar to how Blob and Flying Kick function as independent cool-downs.



Final Thoughts

We are excited to get these changes out to you as soon as possible and are committed to continuing progress of the game. The above items are unlikely to change bar number tweaks, but now that we've been able to give you an insight into the direction we are taking we would love to hear back from you on new features, weapons, abilities and mechanics you'd love to see included into Movie Battles II in future builds following 1.4.4.

 

[Lessen]

blocking should offer high FP regen

That would make blocking completely safe. How would that not make blocking completely safe (aside from knockdowns)? You'd have reduced FP drain AND high regen. It would reintroduce the central problem of Jedi/Sith being able to hang out indefinitely in close proximity to a gunner. The problem of them not having to really commit. You're not supposed to have a complete refuge option. It's silly. As it is right now, blocking gives you a considerable amount of refuge (thanks to FP drains being crazy low when blocking) but not an INDEFINITE amount of refuge.

And the intuitive logic behind blocking reducing your own FP regen is: You're focusing on blocking shots, meaning you're not resting/relaxing, meaning you're not regenerating. Regenerating is something that happens when you're resting, not when you're exerting yourself.

Strafing needs to be tweaked, of course, and be as slow as walking backwards.

I'm still pretty intrigued by this, since it would make gunner fights less of a wiggle fest and more of quick and deadly engagements based on existing positioning choices. As you pointed out, it would buff snipers and nerf saberists, meaning more rebalancing in that regard.

But, nauseatingly, it wouldn't actually make it IMPOSSIBLE for you to do quick side-to-side movements. It would still be very possible if you set your mouse sensitivity very high and get good at swivelling.

Encouraging that kind of strategy would be mad toxic, speaking as someone with low mouse sensitivity. Sure, gunners wouldn't be able to fire literally full-auto while dodging, but pro P3ers would be almost completely as agile as they are now if they got good at swivelling. (Saberists would be too)

I guess you could counter it by also going through all the bother of adding an acceleration system to ALL movement so that you simply can't change direction quickly, and... that would be kind of cool... There would be more momentum and commitment to everything. I wonder if that's even possible to add to the engine, and I wonder if it's possible to implement in a way that isn't.. janky, irritating, ugly, etc.

For instance, ideally you would want new animations to show how a character gradually picks up from a standstill to a sprint as they accelerate. But maybe that wouldn't be necessary. Maybe just using the existing animations and having them just speed up as you pick up speed would work decently enough.

The main difficulty is just how to implement that in a way that doesn't just make people say "I feel like I'm on ice lmao"

EVERYTHING SHOULD COUNTER EVERYTHING IF PLAYED WELL ENOUGH

Disagree. Encourages lone-wolfing too much. I do like infinite skill ceilings in some contexts, but i'd rather this game encourage team coordination more than being such a mechanical god that you can force your way through a bunch of mechanically weak players. I don't mind one tactically brilliant player being able to use positioning and strategy and momentum to force his way through a bunch of tactically garbage players, though. (edit: i prefer "outplayed" to "outskilled." I prefer winning by making decisions that counter the opponent's, rather than winning by using extremely difficult techniques. Not that I mind having analog mechanics that allow for infinite precision/control, either, mind you.) And I don't mind Wookies being able to soak their way through Soldiers due to my view (described elsewhere) of them as a "bruiser" class. The Soldier is responsible for collaborating with a saberist. And Soldiers literally have three lives, so they're the LAST class that should be able to potentially preserve their own life through any situation.

So Polak, you like everything in MB2 relating to blaster fire to be guessing matches?

coming from a Melee background, my perspective on this is more that it's about "reads" than "guesses," but Melee is a 1v1 game where you have a ton of time to learn the opponent's patterns, and MB2 is a team game where there's a ton of opponents, so i don't disagree that it could be better to reduce that element in MB2.

Also, you remark about gimmicks being overly useful against average players, and then in the next breath you say that there need to be MORE mechanics and abilities to learn and use. Adding even more obscure mechanical options just makes exploiting the ignorance of average players easier.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

That would make blocking completely safe. How would that not make blocking completely safe (aside from knockdowns)? You'd have reduced FP drain AND high regen. It would reintroduce the central problem of Jedi/Sith being able to hang out indefinitely in close proximity to a gunner. The problem of them not having to really commit. You're not supposed to have a complete refuge option. It's silly. As it is right now, blocking gives you a considerable amount of refuge (thanks to FP drains being crazy low when blocking) but not an INDEFINITE amount of refuge.

Yes, but that doesn't make any remote sense, and the current balance doesn't work. Jedi is completely unviable in 2v1 situations against gunners for this reason, and there is *no* haven for Jedi except to run away. That is nonsensically retarded. Block *should* be the safe haven for Jedi/Sith. There are plenty of counters for a blocking Jedi, such as melee, flanking, or the like. Killing a blocking Jedi is no problem for me. Obviously the damage reduction/increase for blocking/running should be evened out a bit.

And the intuitive logic behind blocking reducing your own FP regen is: You're focusing on blocking shots, meaning you're not resting/relaxing, meaning you're not regenerating. Regenerating is something that happens when you're resting, not when you're exerting yourself.

Jedi practice for years of their lives deflecting blaster shots under strenuous circumstances. Holding block should be a relaxing point for a Jedi, running AT a target would be exertion, especially deflecting shots while running *towards* a target.

I'm still pretty intrigued by this, since it would make gunner fights less of a wiggle fest and more of quick and deadly engagements based on existing positioning choices. As you pointed out, it would buff snipers and nerf saberists, meaning more rebalancing in that regard.

But, nauseatingly, it wouldn't actually make it IMPOSSIBLE for you to do quick side-to-side movements. It would still be very possible if you set your mouse sensitivity very high and get good at swivelling.

Encouraging that kind of strategy would be mad toxic, speaking as someone with low mouse sensitivity. Sure, gunners wouldn't be able to fire literally full-auto while dodging, but pro P3ers would be almost completely as agile as they are now if they got good at swivelling. (Saberists would be too)

If you're spinning your mouse to move quickly and pressing forward, then you're *not* aiming at the enemy. As for saberists, it would make sense to make sabers have a smaller deflection cone.

I guess you could counter it by also going through all the bother of adding an acceleration system to ALL movement so that you simply can't change direction quickly, and... that would be kind of cool... There would be more momentum and commitment to everything. I wonder if that's even possible to add to the engine, and I wonder if it's possible to implement in a way that isn't.. janky, irritating, ugly, etc.

For instance, ideally you would want new animations to show how a character gradually picks up from a standstill to a sprint as they accelerate. But maybe that wouldn't be necessary. Maybe just using the existing animations and having them just speed up as you pick up speed would work decently enough.

The main difficulty is just how to implement that in a way that doesn't just make people say "I feel like I'm on ice lmao"

I doubt that would be possible, and it isn't exactly necessary either.

Disagree. Encourages lone-wolfing too much. I do like infinite skill ceilings in some contexts, but i'd rather this game encourage team coordination more than being such a mechanical god that you can force your way through a bunch of mechanically weak players. I don't mind one tactically brilliant player being able to use positioning and strategy and momentum to force his way through a bunch of tactically garbage players, though. And I don't mind Wookies being able to soak their way through Soldiers due to my view (described elsewhere) of them as a "bruiser" class. The Soldier is responsible for collaborating with a saberist. And Soldiers literally have three lives, so they're the LAST class that should be able to potentially preserve their own life through any situation.

Lone wolfing is absolutely fine if you have the skill for it. I really hate this "Fuck you, you have to work with shitty players, because numbers" team mentality concept that MB2 has, IF PLAYERS ARE OF EQUAL SKILL, THEN TEAMWORK WILL BE *NECESSARY*, OTHERWISE, IF ONE PLAYER HAS MORE SKILL THAN EVERYONE ELSE ON THE ENEMY TEAM COMBINED, WHY SHOULD HE BE FORCED TO WORK WITH A TEAM? That would be like Palpatine going "Oh wow, so many Jedi masters came to arrest me, BETTER WAIT FOR THE CLONES". You shouldn't need the ridiculously OP saber classes in FA, like Palpatine in the office, because a really good player should be able to beat really not-good players.

A Wookiee should not be able to soak through *any class* just by being in close proximity to them. Jedi can't soak through soldiers, why should Wooks be able to? All classes should really be balanced around no-nade soldier, and the concept of *skill*

coming from a Melee background, my perspective on this is more that it's about "reads" than "guesses," but Melee is a 1v1 game where you have a ton of time to learn the opponent's patterns, and MB2 is a team game where there's a ton of opponents, so i don't disagree that it could be better to reduce that element in MB2.

Reading someone is guessing. It is just an educated guess. I played tournament MK9/SC for years, and 'psychics' who tried to read their opponents tended to lose fairly early on, because it is *inconsistent*. I managed to kill 4 extremely good gunners yesterday as a P3 Hero, by just guessing correctly. That should *not* be the case, I should have *lost*.

Also, you remark about gimmicks being overly useful against average players, and then in the next breath you say that there need to be MORE mechanics and abilities to learn and use. Adding even more obscure mechanical options just makes exploiting the ignorance of average players easier.

Mechanics/Abilities =/= Gimmicks. The ability to roll cancel is not the same as *relying* on a gimmicky strategy like sense-3 camping, or watching doors with proj rifles. Because they aren't one-sided, and are more of a broad array of a skill-set required for combat. For instance, melee-kataing during a saber duel is a gimmick, why? Because it has nothing to do with the actual saber fighting, it is you using something that is not-pertinent to the actual fight, in order to dispatch someone who may be better than you, or spamming speed lunge over and over and over against a Sith, or trying to roll-kata/dual stab someone off a ledge, you're basically using something to SUPPLEMENT a lack of skill, in order to win. That is a gimmick.

 

[Lessen]

If you're spinning your mouse to move quickly and pressing forward, then you're *not* aiming at the enemy.

Twitch shots exist, and, in fact, most of my shots are twitch shots. If you nerf strafing speed, then it will be very nearly optimal to learn how to very quickly, very constantly switch between running to the side and firing accurate twitch shots. I would consider that an even uglier meta than the current wiggle meta. There's probably other ways to discourage this aside from adding universal acceleration, though........ You could... make it so that (along with strafing being slowed) firing slows ALL movement to backpedal speed for a second during/after firing. That would nerf charging-suppressing-fire too, but that would encourage a strategy where some people lay down suppressing fire while others advance without firing, which would be nice.

Most saber styles already slow down to some degree when they attack. Reducing the block cone is an interesting idea and would make swivel-strafing vulnerable to side shots. It would be yet another saberist nerf but at this point we'd be well into a bunch of rebalancing changes so ideas probably shouldn't be weighed individually as buffs/nerfs.

Holding block should be a relaxing point for a Jedi

An argument can be made in either direction. Block can be seen as a long-term state of relaxed preparedness, OR it can be seen as short-term state of heightened focus that may FEEL fairly relaxed but still tires the mind. I think either view is decently intuitive, and I think low-regen block is better from a gameplay perspective.

I played tournament MK9/SC for years, and 'psychics' who tried to read their opponents tended to lose fairly early on, because it is *inconsistent*.

In pro Melee, reads and mindgames and mental pressure are all extremely important even at the top level, but that's only true because of the vast mechanical differences between the games you mentioned and Melee, so the question is: "which game is MB2 more similar to"? But that's not a very important question, so nevermind.

re: gimmicks, I may have lost track of this line of thought, but, I think I don't have a problem with gimmicky strategies as long as there's a good counter to them. Gimmicks are only really bad when a gimmicky strategy is also the best way to play, even against a good player. mmm I don't have a strong opinion here, though, about whether or not MB2 has any really bad gimmicks. I don't consider grappling ("melee-kata"?) in a duel to be a gimmick, though, it seems more like just a very high-risk play.

Jedi can't soak through soldiers, why should Wooks be able to?

Because Wooks expend a non-renewable defensive resource (HP) to do so, while Jedi have a renewable defensive resource (FP). Different roles. A Wookiee that does their job well can still only bash their way through a limited number of encounters before succumbing to wounds. A Jedi that only ever lets their FP or BP get hit can fight through infinite encounters. Whether or not Wookiee is BALANCED in this role is a different question, as is the question of whether or not it's a good role to have in the game at all, but I believe that that's what their role is intended to be.

Arguably, that role is fundamentally overpowered in low-population games, but, you also have to factor in that saberists are pretty good against Wooks in a straight fight. The REALLY heinous thing about Wooks, to me, is just that they get such a massive, unstoppable reward (Fury, or Rage, or whatever it's called) for getting one or two kills on random garbage newbie players. That's ridiculous. (It's fine in a pro context where everybody is reliable, but it's awful in pubs.)

And I honestly don't like the idea of someone being able to be Palpatine-tier against a group just through sheer mechanical skill. Palpatine has super overpowered speed and dexterity, not... particularly great technique or decision-making. He's just overflowing with power. If the four Jedi Masters had all been as fundamentally powerful as him, he would have lost, because one guy with a sword fundamentally does not have great options against four guys with swords, unless he maintains a fantastic positional advantage.

anyway, MBlocking exists, if you want to be able to beat people through ludicrously high skill. The skill required there is the skill of anticipating or reacting to the enemy's decisions. What kind of skill do YOU want to reward? The skill of executing complicated inputs? I don't actually know what you want, in that regard

 

[andrew]

Reading someone is guessing. It is just an educated guess. I played tournament MK9/SC for years, and 'psychics' who tried to read their opponents tended to lose fairly early on, because it is *inconsistent*. I managed to kill 4 extremely good gunners yesterday as a P3 Hero, by just guessing correctly. That should *not* be the case, I should have *lost*.

The beast - Create, Discover and Share GIFs on Gfycat

yomi

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

I am pretty sure part of your opinion includes the fact that these changes make the class less noob-friendly than before and that it is not a good thing, and i want to answer that part. It's true, i agree it's not directly a good thing for people who play for their first time of first few times, but it also has a positive side-effect: because the running drains are so high and the blocking drains so low, newbies will catch on to the fact that blocking at the correct time is advantageous much quicker than before, simply because it is much more noticeable than before. Thus it will compel them to use blocking much quicker over the course of their mb2 playtime, in other words compel them to play at a higher skill level than they would before - and once they do they'll be able to get even better results than they would with the previous system, because in that system they wouldn't understand how to play better as quickly since it'd be much less obvious and they'd be able to get passable results anyway with low-level play. And on top of that, getting much better results with the previous system was very difficult because you just didn't have the tools for it - blocking was too weak - but with the current system, there is more room for skill to be applied through proper blocking timing/deflecting and along with that, more room to get results you would never be able to with the previous system (it is less forgiving but has higher skillcap along with greater potential).

A big part of the gunner fantasy to me is actually about overcoming the disadvantage somehow with situational awareness when fighting against a jedi. Nowadays it feels like a gimp hunt. There's this retarded guy with a glowstick running around somewhere that takes time to kill because he is holding block, but is actually really shit at the game. Before you could euthanize them fast when needed, I kinda wish this was still a thing. Sure being able to do the honorable thing was something you needed to be good at, but when you were good at it, it was something you could do even when heavily intoxicated.

I love the excitement when I watch the films and see someone like Jango Fett going toe to toe with Obi-Wan. He's not able to beat him in a fair fight, but fights are luckily not about being fair. Hiding behind support fire, abusing flamethrowers, mobility and rockets to gain the advantage end up winning the game for Jango.

It used to be in a nice state where jedi are strong as an entry level class, but the moment you actually want to REALLY affect the end result of a round, you play as an elitetrooper/commander, clone, soldier as you're so skilled that you actually make the most out of these "weak" classes. The alternative is of course getting good as a single-lifer, but generally their potential is always dampened by the 1-life limit. 1-lifers are more about making a dent before dying unlike multilifers which are all about sustained damage and taking out key enemy 1-lifers by sacrificing one life.

Why do we need to necessarily worry about jedi being slightly stronger as entry level classes? People want to play as them primarily when they first try the game out, so why not make them an easy entry point? Gunners are where the games are always decided at the higher levels of play anyway. Good snipes, blobs and grenade placements decide so much more than any Push or swing.

 

[Fang]

Came back to this thread like

A big part of the gunner fantasy to me is actually about overcoming the disadvantage somehow with situational awareness when fighting against a jedi. Nowadays it feels like a gimp hunt. There's this retarded guy with a glowstick running around somewhere that takes time to kill because he is holding block, but is actually really shit at the game. Before you could euthanize them fast when needed, I kinda wish this was still a thing. Sure being able to do the honorable thing was something you needed to be good at, but when you were good at it, it was something you could do even when heavily intoxicated.

I love the excitement when I watch the films and see someone like Jango Fett going toe to toe with Obi-Wan. He's not able to beat him in a fair fight, but fights are luckily not about being fair. Hiding behind support fire, abusing flamethrowers, mobility and rockets to gain the advantage end up winning the game for Jango.

It used to be in a nice state where jedi are strong as an entry level class, but the moment you actually want to REALLY affect the end result of a round, you play as an elitetrooper/commander, clone, soldier as you're so skilled that you actually make the most out of these "weak" classes. The alternative is of course getting good as a single-lifer, but generally their potential is always dampened by the 1-life limit. 1-lifers are more about making a dent before dying unlike multilifers which are all about sustained damage and taking out key enemy 1-lifers by sacrificing one life.

Why do we need to necessarily worry about jedi being slightly stronger as entry level classes? People want to play as them primarily when they first try the game out, so why not make them an easy entry point? Gunners are where the games are always decided at the higher levels of play anyway. Good snipes, blobs and grenade placements decide so much more than any Push or swing.

Some good pointsssssssssssss
You want kills? Play something that determines the game. The gunner.
I mean if you want kills with your glowstick go roam alone with sense 3 assassin but don't come crying if you get 1v1 / 1vX'd

A Wookiee should not be able to soak through *any class* just by being in close proximity to them. Jedi can't soak through soldiers, why should Wooks be able to?

Jedi can't soak through soldiers, why should Wooks be able to?

Helpful guide to taking no damage for considerable amount of time provided below against laser weaponry

For more information on taking on wookiees, see crouchswing.com for more details.
This information was brought to you by the solicitation of 'damage reduction base and blocking' ltd

 

[Stassin]

It used to be in a nice state where jedi are strong as an entry level class, but the moment you actually want to REALLY affect the end result of a round, you play as an elitetrooper/commander, clone, soldier as you're so skilled that you actually make the most out of these "weak" classes.

Did you really say this ? The moment you REALLY want to affect the result of the round, you'd want to play a class other than jedi ? Surely you don't mean that. It's basically saying that jedi class has a low skillcap and is thus easy to pick up, but doesn't have any more depth than that and thus is not "hard to master" because there is nowhere to apply skill, while with gunners there is alot of room to apply skill.

It's fine for jedi to be stronger as an entry class, and it still is. With flinch and FP changes we're just removing the retardation from it where an almost complete jedi newbie could instantly take on an experienced gunner when the latter couldn't land a HS or 3 consecutive torso shots on a running target at close range. Now that this is finally fixed, we'll look into buffing the class in other ways to address 1vX, mobility or whatever, if needed. But without reintroducing the problems we just fixed.

 

[Jediknight Fou]

With flinch and FP changes we're just removing the retardation from it where an almost complete jedi newbie could instantly take on an experienced gunner

You really believe in this?
Actually with flinch you just gave some kind of autoprotection to gunners and now even a newbie can easy kill a jedi/sith, even if its an experienced one he just needs to spam with the blaster if the saberist is close and flinch, with a little portion of luck, does the rest.
The saberist then loses many fp and hasnt a chance to escape, while gunner just needs to keep spamming.
It doesnt take any of your so called "skill" to kill a j/s since 1.4, the only thing i see since then are luckspamming gunners and forcespamming j/s.
No, there is nothing fixed, now its an unbalanced mess, where luck and spam is the only thing deciding which side wins the round.

we'll look into buffing the class in other ways to address 1vX, mobility or whatever, if needed.

Or whatever?
So what you exactly mean is:
"We are fine that gunners benefit from far and close range and autoprotection, we will nerf saberists more, but we dont know how we could balance saberists, but we look what we can do that the class isnt completly useless."

Why not just removing them from open completly, makes it easier for everyone or are you afraid everyone goes to FA or duel servers?
Well, this will happen anyway soon enough if you keep nerfing saberists.
A class for closecombat which cant properly attack, thats still so ridiculous.
I dont know why this hate on saberists started and i really dont care, but i remember a post in the old forum, where devs stated how they want attract new players to the game and so on...well i think this was before some of the devs left.
With these changes you doing to the saberists, you definitively drive away most of the players which came for lightsaber.
I believe many which are new will leave immediately, if they see how this flinchprotectioncrap destroys them, i myself would leave if i was new to 1.4 and wouldnt know how good it was some updates before and still i have some hope for this mod, but its fading.
If you want drive away the saberist completly until only gunners left, then follow this path until you have blasterbattles2, because thats the direction you are going and i think, its what you really want.

 

[andrew]

Did you really say this ? The moment you REALLY want to affect the result of the round, you'd want to play a class other than jedi ? Surely you don't mean that. It's basically saying that jedi class has a low skillcap and is thus easy to pick up, but doesn't have any more depth than that and thus is not "hard to master" because there is nowhere to apply skill, while with gunners there is alot of room to apply skill.

i would hope someone that is put into a design role due to their coding abilities would be able to read the nuance of ben's posts, instead of directing them towards their own agenda

the classes that act as legitimately round ending and contributing power are overwhelmingly gunner classes. if you want to actually have an effect on a round, 9 out of 10 times you want to be picking a powerful gunner that actually consistently contributes damage. the classes that can most effectively push forward and deal damage are definitely the multi life classes, whereas the powerful single life classes (hero, bh, sbd) are more situationally effective. heroes excel in stalemated, stagnant positions, and sbds excel at defending and position holding. however, multi life classes are the ones that keep gameplay flowing and are always contributing damage or some from of are denial with the ability to spam grenades, or move into positions without worrying about being out of the round

with jedi, you will never need more than 2 in any single area. 1 used to be overwhelmingly fine, but its possible with the changes to fp regen that you might not be able to provide the full jedi supporting role solo anymore. the only danger really used to come from getting instant blob sniped or some other situation.

a jedis skillcap doesnt even come into play here, because unless you're running around a gigantic open server just picking people off who are moving alone or in small groups, they dont get their opportunity to shine. even a god of jedi like slash isn't going to be creating opportunities for his team as jedi if theres 7 soldiers anywhere near the objective in the way that nearly any gunner class could.

edit: but i still love u stassin nonetheless <3

 

[DaloLorn]

Why not just removing them from open completly, makes it easier for everyone or are you afraid everyone goes to FA or duel servers?
Well, this will happen anyway soon enough if you keep nerfing saberists.

False. These changes also affect FA, as very few (read: not a single one) FAs have purely saber-vs-saber combat barring duel maps - in fact, most are the exact opposite.

 

[Jediknight Fou]

False. These changes also affect FA, as very few (read: not a single one) FAs have purely saber-vs-saber combat barring duel maps - in fact, most are the exact opposite.

I dont know exactly what you mean.
Of course the changes affecting all in fa too, but its more playable and enjoyable.
Yesterday were many people on fa-jedi temple, normally im used to it that clones camping the big hall but yesterday they didnt.
They teamed up and really did a good job, even if they are weaker then in open, i was really surprised.
On the other side i could finally play normal as jedi, of course flinch is there too, but this crap is in fa not this annoying then in open.
I have to say both sides did very well for many rounds, until the clone side got an useless anakin and didnt tried to team up anymore.
Until this happend it was challenging and fun, after that it was just hunting down lone clones.
So since weeks this was the real first good match and definitively best example for teamplay i saw in mb2.
If i have to decide between a full fa or open server, i would always pick fa, because at the moment its more balanced than open.

 

[DaloLorn]

Something just occurred to me, and I don't know how I failed to notice it before.

Who asked for all of these changes? Obviously (and unfortunately, given the stubbornness of both sides of the argument), we can't check because the old forums are gone - but the question has merit regardless.

Here's what the current situation looks like from where I'm standing, which should give you a pretty good idea of why I'm asking:

• Patch structure:
  • In 1.4, current dev team makes massive restructuring of gameplay for no apparent reason except to restructure gameplay, no apparent provocation. This does yield a few select improvements (even more 'select' if you require a fairly solid degree of community agreement), but also brings in a bunch of problems.
  • 1.4.1 and 1.4.2 tweak stuff. People are finally getting used to some of the problems from the previous version (those that aren't are finally deciding to throw in the towel), and a lot of the tweaks are just improvements to the situation.
  • 1.4.3 breaks stuff further. Still no apparent motivation aside from "I decided this is for the best because I know what I'm talking about and you don't." Once again, select improvements (if any) with a lot of falling apart.
  • Minor changes like M5 reserve ammo notwithstanding, 1.4.4 ignores some of the breakage from its predecessors, tries to correct or at least put a bandage on some of the more glaring issues, and does very little else. (Unless you look at the wallgrab and deflect changes, which could also be considered major.)
• Team response to criticism:
  • People like Stassin spout walls of text which do very little to convince anyone, but it doesn't matter because the opposing side is powerless. As far as I can tell, this subgroup is quite possibly either larger than - or insufficiently challenged by - the others, because their word is law. (An additional reason for me to believe this is that Stassin was the one who wrote up the 'specialist style' concept, apparently did it without too much subsequent involvement from the others, and now it's going away when its flaws have sufficiently shown themselves.)
  • People like Tempest make a few posts here and there to address some of the more contestable topics like the usefulness or uselessness of sense, then move on once neither side has anything useful left to say or learn. Aside from that, it's mostly just "Okay then, I'm going to try this, I think it might help. *listens for thunderstorm, doesn't seem to hear much so it's probably safe to go ahead*".
  • People like Hexodious just get back to work. Whether that work is performed with a mindset more along the lines of Stassin or along the lines of Tempest (sorry guys, but you two are the most active current devs around here. ) is anyone's guess.
• Community response:
  • People like Liniyka and Appo praise whatever change affects their playstyle and optionally make a few suggestions on how to improve things further. Or, if the changes are perceived as detrimental to them, they curse the developers just as vigorously. (I'm looking at you, shotgun snipers.) Other than that, they mostly stay out of the discussion at large.
  • People like Fou or Achilles (or me, I guess?) attack the changes head-on, providing various amounts of insight as to why they think the previous state was or wasn't better. I'm arguably a bit of a hypocrite here because I was actually willing to accept the 1.4.2 status quo with only minor modification (have I said 'SBD flinch' too many times already? ), but eagerly joined in their efforts after 1.4.3.
  • The bulk of the observable community - including long-time vets (relative to my arrival in 1.2 and the subsequent timeskip to 1.4 ) like Frank, Ben, Tali, SeV or Crusade - seems to dislike the changes both current and future. As Ben demonstrates, this does not exclude former developers, which suggests that they would have actively worked against them in the planning stage.

So, if the predominant response is "this is bad and you should feel bad about it", why are you still doing it? (This is mostly addressed to the Stassin category I mentioned above.) Who are you trying to benefit when it clearly isn't most of the people involved in this discussion?

Alternatively, if you don't care about anyone's opinion but your own, why are you still pretending to care about what the others think? Why are you rehashing the same arguments over and over instead of just saying "screw them, we're doing this anyway because this is our mod, right guys?" and getting it over with?

 

[GenoMandalorian]

God. I'll miss cyan perk so much. : P

 

[Damn Polak]

why are you still doing it?

what if they are right?
what if devs know better?
i believe devs did nothing wrong, and eventually will make mb2 even better than ever

 

[Jediknight Fou]

People like Liniyka and Appo praise whatever change affects their playstyle and optionally make a few suggestions on how to improve things further. Or, if the changes are perceived as detrimental to them, they curse the developers just as vigorously. (I'm looking at you, shotgun snipers.) Other than that, they mostly stay out of the discussion at large.

I wouldnt say Appo protecting everything which is good for gunners, only things which are usefull for Arc.^^
I consider him one of the good gunners who have common sense.
He had suggested to remove flinch and do this knockback when hit thing back or something like this, so he has a place in my heart.

People like Fou or Achilles (or me, I guess?) attack the changes head-on, providing various amounts of insight as to why they think the previous state was or wasn't better. I'm arguably a bit of a hypocrite here because I was actually willing to accept the 1.4.2 status quo with only minor modification (have I said 'SBD flinch' too many times already? ), but eagerly joined in their efforts after 1.4.3.

When i started with this mod i was bad as saberist because it was different, then i got used to it and got better, then 1.4 came with its flinchcrap.
Flinch is actually the only thing which bothers me right now.
I mean its one of the worst things i ever saw in gaming history and i have seen many stupid features.
They should make saber vs gunner like in 1.3 again.
Or give all styles Q3, even then a good gunner could noobflinch and kill you without much hassle when he spams.
Currently i dont go for kills in open anymore if its a gunner, i just push spam or light spam him until a mate kills him.
I farm assists its fun too and we maybe win the round.
I dont gain anything if i go against a gunner with my saber, only that i get panicsprayed and luckflinched and then im death, while the noobgunner still has 2-3 lives.
Why should i attack? The gunner just need hold fire, they dont need anything to do besides that, and i have maybe a chance to randomly kill him? No, thanks.
Like i said earlier i played gunner myself to see if its really so easy or do i just suck? NO! It is easy, i dont hit other gunners, but saberists are the easiest prey on the server.
Actually gunners are currently the cheapest and easiest class to play.
I dont know who had the idea with this flinchcrap, but hes not playing saberist, so it only could be gunner and this is definitely the wrong person for this, if he decides this alone.
Im only still here because i hope this mod gets better again, but if i look at this list, i doubt it.
Current update was a step forward but a small one, in the next it goes with big steps backwards again.

The bulk of the observable community - including long-time vets (relative to my arrival in 1.2 and the subsequent timeskip to 1.4 ) like Frank, Ben, Tali, SeV or Crusade - seems to dislike the changes both current and future. As Ben demonstrates, this does not exclude former developers, which suggests that they would have actively worked against them in the planning stage.

Many of them, if not all, are saberists of course they hate everything recently, the last updates were nerfs.
Also almost all of them hate flinch, too.

 

[Gumba]

The bulk of the observable community - including long-time vets

Frank

Crusade

Reading some of these post really brings tears to my eyes

 

[Stassin]

There is little to argue about since we don't have the same basis of gameplay experience. To me, you guys don't really seem to know what you are talking about due to skewed experience and views, and you can say the same about me and the other veterans who have the same basis, so this is just stupid. My arguments are probably too indirect and exasperated to make any difference, you'd need to be shown directly in-game to understand what the gameplay really is about. I'll just leave it to other people, or time and the game itself to convince you.


EDIT:

the classes that act as legitimately round ending and contributing power are overwhelmingly gunner classes. if you want to actually have an effect on a round, 9 out of 10 times you want to be picking a powerful gunner that actually consistently contributes damage.

Oh yeah that's correct in competitive gameplay, but in the usual public play where people don't team up much, it's clearly jedi who make the biggest difference because they are better on their own and for 1v1s than gunners are. But when some good gunners do actually team up, they rekt the enemies who don't.

 

[Vongs]

There is little to argue about since we don't have the same basis of gameplay experience. To me, you guys don't really seem to know what you are talking about due to skewed experience and views, and you can say the same about me and the other veterans who have the same basis, so this is just stupid. My arguments are probably too direct and exasperated to make any difference, i'll just leave it to other people, or time and the game itself to convince you.

So instead of trying to understand if there's some truth to the arguments of others, let's simply ignore it and go with just what you think is right.

Remember when I said that, in my opinion, you didn't consider other people's opinion? That's precisely what I meant. To me it really sounds like you think your view for the game is the right one and nothing can change that.

It's not that your arguments are too direct, it's that they don't seem convincing to many because we don't have the same assumptions that you do, what seems reasonable to you might not be to others. Many of your arguments about trying to make the game easier/harder for new players are ridiculous to me given what you believe is the experience for a new player in the current version. The same can also be said for me although I like to think I might have a slight edge given that I started playing most recently. I believe it's not the case however for the actual new players and it might be worth listening to what they have to say instead of what you think they have to say.

 

[Stassin]

So instead of trying to understand if there's some truth to the arguments of others, let's simply ignore it and go with just what you think is right.

Are you a troll or maybe just blind ? I did answer your post along with andrew's since they were the only ones that felt interesting to answer.

Remember when I said that, in my opinion, you didn't consider other people's opinion? That's precisely what I meant. To me it really sounds like you think your view for the game is the right one and nothing can change that.

Same applies to you. I do consider your opinion but that doesn't change the fact i completely disagree with it. And i'm far from being the only one, despite what you may think.

As usual this is turning into a stupid dogfight, "i'm right, you're wrong", because the basis for building arguments just isn't the same. Wasting time and exasperating. I'll discuss with those who understand the same basis as me, the others please just go learn2play, go fight good jedis (real good jedi, not the ones you think are good but are actually pretty noob) as gunners and get rekt until you understand, whatever.

 

[DaloLorn]

I wouldnt say Appo protecting everything which is good for gunners, only things which are usefull for Arc.^^

My point exactly. He's on his own side, much like Liniyka seems to be.

That basically just means they're not quite as active in the rest of the discussion.

Reading some of these post really brings tears to my eyes

You barely participate in the discussion until you post comments like these, anyway. On a related note, Vongs was kind enough to inadvertently remind me that I didn't list him.

There is little to argue about since we don't have the same basis of gameplay experience.

Evidently not, seeing as you clearly believe a saberist can even semi-reliably beat an equally competent gunner (without the use of lightning, at least). What does that mean, that I'm a much better ARC than I thought, that ARCs don't fit properly into your neat little balance scheme, or that Frank and Crusade are much worse than I thought? (I would list more, but I've already forgotten some of the people I've caught.)

To me, you guys don't really seem to know what you are talking about due to skewed experience and views, and you can say the same about me and the other veterans who have the same basis, so this is just stupid.

Compared to a lot of these people, I'm no veteran. I'm no Appo, I'm no Vongs or SeV or anything. I'm hardly Achilles either - but one thing I am not, is your average newbie coming in for his first taste of MB2. I cannot stress enough how much that fact has steered me into the harder path of debating these changes rather than just quitting outright.

My arguments are probably too indirect and exasperated to make any difference, you'd need to be shown directly in-game to understand what the gameplay really is about.

I've been playing a few hours a day since 1.4.3 - heck, probably since 1.4.1! It still doesn't work out.

I'll just leave it to other people, or time and the game itself to convince you.

Very few 'other people' are even trying to support you anymore, not with actual arguments. They either go against you, ignore this whole debate altogether, or make the odd remark like Gumba or Polak have.

As for time and the game? I've already been over that a few lines ago. If you expect me to sit this out until I have a total playtime numbering in the months, chasing some 'higher enlightenment', you've got another thing coming.

Many of your arguments about trying to make the game easier/harder for new players are ridiculous to me given what you believe is the experience for a new player in the current version. The same can also be said for me although I like to think I might have a slight edge given that I started playing most recently. I believe it's not the case however for the actual new players and it might be worth listening to what they have to say instead of what you think they have to say.

Honestly, the very first assumption that comes to mind, in all of this, is that the majority of people come in here to play gunners in some Star Wars-themed... something. (I'm not familiar enough with the FPS genre outside of SWBF and Jedi Knight, so I can't make any explicit labeling.)

In reality, a lot of them probably come in for the Jedi or the Sith. Why?

• The 'cool' factor, I believe that's been mentioned before.
• This is Star Wars, and the Jedi have always been one of the most identifiable aspects of that franchise along with Imperial-class Star Destroyers, YT-1300s and X-Wings.
• This is a Star Wars mod (as opposed to, say, a Stargate mod) for a game called 'Jedi Academy'. Who's the most likely to have that game in the first place? Someone who wanted to play, you guessed it, a Jedi.

Now, the logical reaction to a sequence of events consisting of "I'm dead! I'm dead! I'm dead! I'm dead! I'm dead! OMG, I still haven't caught anyone! I'm dead! I'm dead again!" is "Screw it, time to find something new to do." Incidentally, this is why I've stopped playing anything except ARCs, and even then I have a tendency to go play something else if I keep getting hopelessly steamrolled.

There's also a comparison to be made to a certain 'CaptainGeko' in a galaxy far far away, but there are no Klingons or STO PvPers around here to do that comparison justice.

I'll discuss with those who understand the same basis as me, the others please just go learn2play, go fight good jedis (real good jedi, not the ones you think are good but are actually pretty noob) as gunners and get rekt until you understand, whatever.

Clearly in your opinion there is not a single 'good Jedi' in the entire EU community.