Future(s) of Sabering [Part 2]

[Tempest]

So, I've continued tweaking my own thoughts for the system, read through everything you guys have posted in Part 1, and even gone back and read through the entire 1.4 Open Beta Feedback thread (among many other threads). Been interesting to see the ideas/feedback everyone had then and I even found some ideas that I think I missed at some point which I've noted down for consideration.

So, that said, here's what I've got for you guys. Given this is basically a copypaste from a text file, things that were added in and haven't been thought through/adjusted will probably retain ? on them.

Color code:
√ = Tested to be working/finalized.
Green = Ready to be tested
Yellow = Work in progress
Orange = Planned but not working on it yet
No color = up in the air/awaiting further discussion

Changes:

Spoiler: Overall

General

• Can now backswing on demand for 10-15 FP (Input = use + back + attack)
• Parry indicator added on crosshair and BP bar. Only Showing indicator for Perfect Parry
• Indicator for successful Mblock (for swingblock stuff)
• Repeated swings adjusted
  
• Flinch now based on rate of fire of weapon as well as the amount of FP that is drained per shot (some kind of table of what does what and when TBA)
• Animation tweaks down the line (to differentiate between cyan and purple more easily)

Experimental:

• Nudge now a toggle
  
• PB angles tweaked slightly for diagonals (also need to make sure pb zones don't overlap at all if it continues to be a problem..)
• Rewording slap change to be less confusing: Slap vs gunners will remain the same. Slap will now cause the current health drain when tapped/held very shortly. If "charged", you will be able to mini-stagger an opponent (for an increased cooldown). If hit while not blocking, they will still fall regardless of short/charged slap. This essentially means that this change will only affect slap vs saberists that are (swing)blocking.
• Reduced damage reduction to 10% instead of 20%? Depends on flinch stuff
  
• If you have ___ ACM advantage and land a body hit on a target (with less than half of your current BP?), target will have a short movement speed reduction and/or you gain a short movement speed increase
  
• Separating some things between duel/open mode?

Saber Drains/Multipliers (not changing, just confirming/listing for people to see; green is confirmed):

• Running, not swingblocking: 1.0x [√]
• Walking, not swingblocking: 1.1x [√]
• Walking, swingblocking: 1.0x [√]
• Hit while running, full swing: 1.2x
• Hit while running, counter swing: 1.2x
• Hit while crouching: 1.5x
  
• Perfect block counter: 1.2x or BP drain of body hit equivalent of defender's style?

Spoiler: Mechanics

Perfect Block (PB)

• No damage from attacker [√]
• Allows for faster counter [√]
• If done against a non-swingblock, target will not be able to continue chaining swingsCombo breaking moved to Mblock
• PB zone adjusted for when opponent isn't facing you

Flinch/Stagger

• No longer applies to special moves
• Saber-out jumping kicks now mini-stagger regardless of blocking

Parrying

• Lack of indicator is basically the indicator that a non-perfect parry happened.
• Perfect Parry (just testing to see how it is with all styles first; if it doesn't work out, it's going back to Cyan)
  
  
  • Blue indicator
    
  • Done by matching the incoming swing (quadrant-wise) with the matching outgoing swing or direct opposite direction and side swing (i.e. incoming top left could be perfect parried by an outgoing backward + left; incoming WA vs outgoing SA)
  • Will stop both saberist's swing chain (unless using Cyan).

Feint

• Changed back to not needing feint for red style hops

Manual Block (Mblock)

• Allows for combo-breaking vs swingblock.
  
• If you successfully Mblock vs a swingblock, you will stop the attacker from being able to continue swinging and deal 6 BP damage to them (except for Red).
  
• If you fail your Mblock (vs any swing), you take BP damage (4 vs Fast styles, 6 vs Medium styles (and Purple), and 8 vs Red).

Counter

• PB counters can no longer have counters performed off of them?

ACC/ACM

• Same rules for drains/gains
• Every +2 of ACM = 1 extra BP damage added to parry drain
  
• Change damage multiplier to be tied to per style?

Nudge

• Now only happens if you get interrupted (aka if you hit at start of swing -> lets you have the chance to do a half swing/counter after being interrupted)

Spoiler: Styles

Wanted to avoid vagueness on offense/defense changes so the values are here as well.

Fast Styles​

Cyan

• Offense value remains unchanged
  
• Defense value lowered from 58->57
• Swing limit lowered to 4

Perk:
- From: 8 BP drain on PB; Removal complete.
- To: Doesn't get stopped from continuing swings after a Perfect Parry

Blue

• Offense value decreased from 8->7
  
• Defense value remains unchanged
• Loses 1 ACC when PB'd

Perk:
- From: 2x faster Force Focus on targets, 2x longer on self (this is being moved to force stuff which will be detailed in another thread); Removal complete.
- To: 6 BP drained from attackers on PB (compared to Cyan's 8 on live) [√]

Medium Styles​

Yellow

• Offense value decreased from 12->11
  
• Defense value unchanged

Perk:
- From: -1 ACM to attackers on PB, -2 vs fast styles Removal complete.
- To: Doesn't suffer from Mblock BP drain on failing. There's an innate cooldown to being able to successfully Mblock so it wouldn't be spammable.

Staff

• Offense value unchanged
  
• Defense value decreased unchanged
  
• Gotta make sure staff trying to mblock on a pblock isn't janky
• Possibly let Staff get saber throw (javelin throws anyone?)

Perk:
- From: Doesn't require PB to successfully Mblock (including correct quadrant...) and staggers on successful Mblock
- To: Doesn't require a PB to be succesful (correct quadrant though still) OR gives +1 ACM if it IS done on a PB OR replace yellow's current perk and give to staff?
- To: Still being looked at (was a typo here for what had been added/moved); Mblock can now be done without a PB if the quadrant for the incoming swing is correct. Stagger functionality remains the same.

Duals

• Offense value remains the same at 10 (keeping this even/slightly lower than yellow because of swing count for now)
• Defense value decreased from 54->53
• Something something upgraded slap/special 2 + use moves?
• Stabs cost 1? ACM to use or __ BP if no ACM built up (in addition to 30 FP)?

Perk:
- From: 8 BP drain on successful special moves. Removal complete
- To: Consecutive hits grant +1 ACM (still reduced damage) if done after a half swing
- To: Consecutive swings are 0.75x damage instead of 0.5x

Heavy Styles​

Red

• Offense value increased from 15->17 (was 20 in 1.3 for the record)
• Defense value remains unchanged
  
• No BP drain from being Mblocked on a swingblock
  
• PB counter = stagger?

Perk:
- From: Third swing causes stagger
- To: Full swing from idle will stagger if not PB'd OR increase duration back to 1.3 duration?
- To: Still readjusting.
Purple

• Offense value remains unchanged
  
• Defense value remains unchanged

Perk
- From: +1 ACC on PB
- To: Leaving it as is for now to see how it plays with the other changes.

So there you have it. I am writing follow-ups to the things I left considered as up in the air but wanted to let people start reading through things before I got through with that. I know some things could possibly (over)complicate some aspects but this isn't an all or nothing with possibilities. To further expand on what's in the air (by section):
Overall
1) Repeated swings
Quite likely going to change these to make it so you can only do one repeated swing in a row or just making it a middle-ground to how it used to be (so that it would be that you have to change what swing you do, wouldn't be locked into combo strings though)
2) Perfect block stuff
- Top-down diagonal zones seem off compared to down-up but I'm going to check and verify on this.
3) Damage reduction..reduction
- Once flinch gets tweaked to not be so binary, I think it might be worth looking at lowering the damage reduction to make up for it being more consistent

Mechanics
1) PB stuff
- I'd like to keep the no damage (as it's always been) and faster counter as the reward for doing it properly
- I think changing the combo stopping to just a non-swingblock would make it less binary
- Other thoughts are just things I picked up from reading back in other threads for people to consider
2) Perfect Parry
- I wanted to implement a more active way of being able to stop combos without it being a solely defensive concept
3) Counters
- I'm not entirely sure about the PB counters being unable to be performed after, but this is mostly in the case that PB stopping combos stays in the system
ACC/ACM
- Just leaving these thoughts out in the air
4) Nudge
- I think it has a purpose but the current way it's done hasn't really been ENJOYED by basically anyone since it was put in

Styles
Mostly just going to wait and see what people think about things for these.

P.S. This doesn't mean saber vs gunner perks aren't going to happen. There just wasn't much said about how to make them more fair (aka not super subtle random bonuses to styles) and getting flinch to be less binary is a good start regardless.

 

[vasya]

hello, it's me.
about these two:

• PB possibly reduce swing chain count?
• Make swing after PB do less damage?

whose swing chain count will be reduced - attacker or PBlocker?
same with second. Cuz if it will affect attacker then no. cuz this is enough

• No damage from attacker
• Allows for faster counter
• If done against a non-swingblock, target will not be able to continue chaining swings

-----
about slap.
maybe should make charge on slap with "hidden" animation? i don't know how fast it will charge but in open or duels noone will stay and wait till u charge ur mighty slap. as i think, again, maybe u can make it possible to charge while blocking? otherwise charging slap may become less popular thing than spam in 1.4 )00)))

---
a-halfswin:

I'm pretty sure the A-halfswing animation was just a tad faster than it is currently

maybe u're right about only speed, but animation itself was different. more convenient. (bigger range?)

---

Perfect Parry:

• Done by matching the incoming swing (quadrant-wise) with the matching outgoing swing or direct opposite direction and side swing (i.e. incoming top left could be perfect parried by an outgoing backward + left; incoming WA vs outgoing SA)?
  
• If executed properly, swing chains will no longer continue

sounds like a good alternative for PB.
but it can be too random during fight.

 

[Tempest]

The swing count was mainly something to go in tandem with the swing limit being based on half swings vs number of follow-up swings you'd done already.

For slap, having it hidden but also possibly not let you be able to start a swing while doing so as the flip side?

The range should be the same on the swings regardless of if they get speed changes. Might be a possibility that we're remembering it as the smooth, fast swing of its time compared to now? I will be sure to comment about this once/if I find a concrete explanation.

For perfect parry, it's actually fairly difficult to do. I was trying it with Cyan vs Yellow just outside of nudge range and I was doing it consistently (though partially because new tactics are hard to incorporate immediately, especially ones that are based on stuff that doesn't exist yet). I talked with Stassin a bit about it and there were some thoughts about making this the actual perk for Cyan.

 

[vasya]

For slap, having it hidden but also possibly not let you be able to start a swing while doing so as the flip side?

i think yes.
another question about slap - will be a difference in falling duration between charged\usual slap? in open mode it can bring some opportunities

---
about perk for Yellow style

- To: Doesn't suffer from Mblock BP drain on failing?

means no BP drain on Mblocks? It will be just like in 1.3 - Mblock spam all the way without penalty and with high reward.
i can't tell you right now which perk you should add for yellow because when perks were added balance kinda changed, so some styles became stronger. i think we should have full picture to actually bring balance in perks if we don't want to repeat 1.3 red style dictatorship
BUT
if mblock has cooldown on using, then 4 BP drain or non-bp drain are really doesn't matter. at all. you won't feel it.

---
about force sense. I think when deflect was nerfed it was too harsh to nerf sense aswell. i used sense 1 earlier and deflect 3 which with new fp drain on 1 and 2 isn't too bad. but they made only third sense usable so i couldn't use deflect any longer. deflect is rarely using thing. combined with fp cost + gunner shots it become almost useless waste of points.
can we just bring back sense 1 duration (or not jsut few seconds)? it was ok. even if it bugged all the time behind doors =)
(or change deflect stats or cost. but still sense 1 and 2 will remain useless)

---
about flinch
when 1.4 was released patch log had this:
Change: Automatic blocking saber animations upon incoming projectiles now occur at all ranges, only when actually deflecting projectiles and not when projectiles pass close by, and they lead to half-swings similar to the nudging ones (no more instantaneous swings).
i didn't see any of these half swings after projectiles.
i found flich very uncomfortable not because its hard, but because it's almost random.
what if add some sort of swing (like one from patch log), maybe insta swing after blocking a shot (like one from patch log) which can not be interrupted with any other shots while animation is proceed (so we can resolve the situation with endless flinches) and jedi will lose hp + fp from projectiles (as it was before) through this animation.

 

[Tempest]

The slap charge would basically be similar to force focus. You charge up the slap to negate their blocking and mini-stagger to have retaliation vs facehug warriors or w/e.

Mblock does currently have a cooldown. I believe it's half a second or one second (have skimmed over it a bunch of times but I know it's there).

With PB stopping non-swingblock swings, you'd have the opportunity to stop their combo if they choose stronger/more quickly chain-able swings. If they choose to swingblock (to avoid Mblock chances), then you have the opportunity to Mblock it and drain their BP (yes maybe 4 is too low but keep in mind this has no innate cooldown for the drains currently).

Instant swings off of projectile-correlated animations made it easier for saberists to kill gunners. Letting them do that is basically encouraging them to get shot so they can gimmick swings. The point for flinch is to make it so you can punish them for reckless play. There's been some talk of having flinch removed/changed to just a swing cancel in exchange for the damage reduction saberists got but I'd prefer to try smaller steps first (I.e. tweaking flinch to be based on FP drains/rate of fire).

 

[Stassin]

Just a comment:

The current feature called "feint" is actually not the correct way to do feints, it's rather intended for more extensive/comfortable control over your saber and primarily to stop a swing from killing a teammate. The correct, actually useful way to do a feint in a saber duel is to purposely miss a swing in the air and chain into another swing that will hit. When you are not close enough to start a difficult-to-PB attack, this allows you to bait a PB from the opponent (who is eagerly waiting for you to attack because his chances of PBing when you attack from far away are extremely high), and close the distance afterwards into a swing that will actually hit him and can mess his timing if he intended to do a counter on your first swing. And even if you don't close the distance it is beneficial.

This perfectly fills the role of a feint even though it's not a "separate feature of its own", so there is absolutely no need to change the swing-stopping feature incorrectly called "feint", and moreover this role is completely separate from the role of nudge (which is only activated at close range, and at close range there is little need to feint, whether you nudge or not) so removing nudge benefits feints in no way at all.

EDIT and another comment:

Nudge actually doesn't change the gameplay much because starting full attacks at close range has the same effect as nudging, just slightly slower so slightly weaker/easier to PB (but still very hard to PB if done correctly with footwork). Nudge is better visually because otherwise sabers can just stand idle inside other characters, it realistically makes sense to be able to perform faster attacks when at close range, mb2 gameplay-wise it increases the skillcap alot due to requiring to learn appropriate timings for it (such that without it the system feels dumbed down, this is what alot of the feedback stated when i initially removed nudge in v1.1).

Indirectly, it allows red style not to be completely dull and slow which is the case when it only has its super-slow full swings to initiate offense and gives red a place in open mode vs gunners otherwise it would be almost absolutely useless (compared to other styles of course). And overall it gives the system more variety and responsiveness since it gives an alternate way to attack and gives feedback when your saber touches another character's body.

To actually improve the system in terms of responsiveness and closeness of control we don't need to suddenly add/change stats of all the styles and tweak every possible situation with PB/Parry but to rework the backbone of these mechanics so that they rely on the very saber position like it used to be (but with larger saber hitboxes so it's actually reliable, or i don't know what, it's a very difficult question).

Other than that the system only needs a few tweaks and improvements such as dealing with the PB combo-break, tweaking flinch, sharpening PB zones and possibly reworking some perks for the better (i like the perfect parry idea as perk for cyan). In that regard, only a few of the changes noted in this thread seem good/needed, most of the rest is only going to wreck the balance and add unnecessary complexity.

I don't even mind nudge becoming optional/a toggle for easier control for people not accustomed to it, but definitely not removing it. Especially since there are quite a few people out there who like it.

 

[Megatron (The Shredder)]

Should performing "feints" in duels be more rewarding if mblocking drained BP again because it would mean that if your opponent tried to MBlock you that they would have sacrificed some BP for it and you tricked them into using some BP and then proceed with your actual attacks.

Not sure if this would actually affect dueling because of defense 3 giving increased BP regeneration.

 

[SK5]

I very much like the perfect parry idea, should be implemented for every style. Some sort of back blocking tool sounds good for 1vX situations. Chaning the maximum numbered of chained swings based on if you do halfswings or combos also sound good to me. The current system needs a lot of work if you ask me and the ideas Tempest suggested sound promising to me. Even if it will again dramatically maul the dueling system, i just think it could be made into something alot more interesting that it currently is (perfect block, nudge, single hits) by introducing new mechanics and changing the current ones.

Overhauling the current system and balancing it from there, rather than keeping the current base and tweaking it sounds far more promising to me.
Might be just because i find the current one a bit bland, mainly because its almost completely about pbing and nudging.

Also making some drastic changes every now and then will keep the game fresh, if you ask me.

 

[SK5]

Also is there any rough estimation of the full release date of the update?

 

[Stassin]

I very much like the perfect parry idea, should be implemented for every style. Some sort of back blocking tool sounds good for 1vX situations. Chaning the maximum numbered of chained swings based on if you do halfswings or combos also sound good to me.

Those ideas sound good to me aswell (though i think perfect parry can only be performed reliably by cyan so having it for other styles seems almost useless, maybe not completely useless, but what i mean is a perfect parry is something both players get at the same time so unless it's a perk for a particular style, both get the same penalty/reward so it's stupid), and some more too. But not changing every AP/BP value, running/swingblocking multipliers, some ridiculously overpowered perks that are proposed like ACM on consecutive hits for duals, movement speed reductions on bodyhits, and also not quite a few other things that are for example too complex while not any better than the current state, such as changing drain multiplier for the next swings when you do consecutive hits or halfswings, there's no point to that; the current state is 1.0x on halfswings and 0.5x on consecutive swings and that's good enough, we have no idea of the consequences of changing it, at least not accurately at all, so it's basically changing it in the dark for no reason.


While i'm here let me throw an idea which could be interesting but is very dangerous: since we're talking about perfect parry being quadrant-wise, how about this, turn all current parries which are not quadrant-wise into mutual bodyhits for both sides, and thus what we call "perfect parries" in this thread would actually become "parries", the only way to parry. This is very similar to what used to happen pre-v1.1 before i cleaned up bodyhit/parry recognition (people would often bodyhit each other at almost the exact same time, their swings not cancelling-out). Effects of this ? It would greatly speed-up duels which would be a good thing since i hear alot of feedback about defense being OP and duels taking too long (even if personally i know that's not an issue, just people needing to learn how to attack correctly). The speed-up will probably be too extreme even and would require other tweaks like reducing overall BP drains again. Downsides ? Perfect parries are most likely not something that can be performed reliably except if you're using cyan style vs another style, so it would become some kind of almost random thing even more so than PBs. Overall i don't know if it would be for the better but definitely something to test to realize that.

 

[Revanic]

What if you could save ACM and activate it like Wookiee Rage? It would support fighting multiple opponents, without simply granting it to people who can't really fight at all.

Some people might not like having ACM completely changed, so maybe, then, it could be an extra boost that was earned some how?

 

[Sammy]

What if you could save ACM and activate it like Wookiee Rage? It would support fighting multiple opponents, without simply granting it to people who can't really fight at all.

Some people might not like having ACM completely changed, so maybe, then, it could be an extra boost that was earned some how?

What if you hit your teammate over and over until you got max ap, then saved it for someone else?

 

[Revanic]

What if you hit your teammate over and over until you got max ap, then saved it for someone else?

Then you just don't let them gain that AP/ACM off teammates? No real problem there, add exception for duel like they did for TKs and whatnot and done. Wookiees don't get Rage built up by killing teammates.

 

[Starushka]

I always thought that AP/ACM represent some sort of Focus/Concentration in the game. The more you hit and more you dodge/PB - the more precise and deadly your strikes become. On my opinion this mechanic should be global - one variable, regardless of the number of opponents. Should fade away smoothly after 5 or so seconds being out of action, 1 ACM every 2 seconds, for example.

 

[Tempest]

But not changing every AP/BP value, running/swingblocking multipliers, some ridiculously overpowered perks that are proposed like ACM on consecutive hits for duals, movement speed reductions on bodyhits, and also not quite a few other things that are for example too complex while not any better than the current state, such as changing drain multiplier for the next swings when you do consecutive hits or halfswings, there's no point to that

The multipliers and stuff in there were more for reference than needing to be changed (to go with that whole transparency thing). Nudge becoming a toggle is definitely the best of both worlds. Also, to clarify on the duals ACM (since I'm not sure what people see at what point given I'm editing things as I go), it wouldn't be on every consecutive swing in general. It'd be on one that followed a halfswing. You'd have to stop flailing (assuming you didn't get stopped by PB stopping swing chains) to do a halfswing, and then you'd be allowed to do a consecutive to try and get extra ACM. This would only ever get you +2 extra ACM (vs without the perk) in any swing chain I'm pretty sure.
Examples (with ACC count at each swing, then change from swing):
1) Full swing (total 0, +1) -> consecutive (total +1, +0), half swing (+1, +1)-> consecutive (+2, +1) -> consecutive (+2, +0) = +2 ACM total
2) Full swing (0, +1), half swing (1, +1) -> consecutive (2, +1), half swing (3, +1), consecutive (4, +1) = +5 ACM total
3) Full swing (0, +1), consecutive (1, +0) -> consecutive (1, +0) -> consecutive (1, +0), half swing (1, +1) = +2 ACM
4) Full swing (0, +1) -> consecutive (1, +0), half swing (1, +1) -> consecutive (2, +1) -> half swing (3, +1) = +4 ACM
Those are assuming nothing to detract from your ACC/ACM count as well so it seems like it would be ideal.
It would encourage duals to be less flailing around for more damage and to instead allow them to be more offensive without being neutered (all non-halfswing chains basically are, which is one of the biggest gripes by people) by the flat 0.5x consecutive swing damage.

the current state is 1.0x on halfswings and 0.5x on consecutive swings and that's good enough, we have no idea of the consequences of changing it, at least not accurately at all, so it's basically changing it in the dark for no reason.

This is why I thought of possibly making the damage for chained swings scale (slightly) to reward for having a good offense. Having it go from 1.0x -> 0.75x -> 0.5x on everything except blue (since it can only do 2 swings and the 2nd swing is basically instant) would make it so people could still do chains that weren't entirely half swings (not that a lot of people actually bother with more than 1-2 swings anyway, which is kind of the point) and get somewhere.

Honestly, it might just be easier to instead of change a bunch of mechanics, figure out exactly what the design/playstyle behind each style should be/focus around and adjust them accordingly. Then we could see how they relate to the mechanics and adjust style/mechanics accordingly.

Examples:
- Fast styles were designed with fast/precise swings in mind, so having perfect parry only work for them would keep them in that flavor. Reducing effectiveness in longer/more heated exchanges to emphasize this would also be fitting.
- Medium styles were designed either to be balanced (yellow) or allow for leaning more toward offense or defense (duals/staff respectively). Having them rewarded for playing to their design (i.e. staff Mblock perk, duals offensive perks) would be appropriate.
- Heavy styles were designed with lower amounts of high damage in exchanges. Stuff like the parry values being higher vs them with lighter stances is a good representation of this.

Things like that might help with avoiding mechanic overloading (current PB) and make it easier to tweak things without balance getting skewed too much/too quickly. Food for thought.

I always thought that AP/ACM represent some sort of Focus/Concentration in the game. The more you hit and more you dodge/PB - the more precise and deadly your strikes become. On my opinion this mechanic should be global - one variable, regardless of the number of opponents. Should fade away smoothly after 5 or so seconds being out of action, 1 ACM every 2 seconds, for example.

I found it to be a lot more logical to be per person (going with focus, you could kind of attribute it to being how well you are reading that opponent which wouldn't help you vs another opponent by default). Having it fade is an interesting idea (would make it a more accurate representation of one's momentum vs said opponent) but it'd probably have to be made more impactful if it has passive degen.

 

[SilverHazer]

Personally I think that slaps, kicks, should leave the one using it carelessly to a direct saber hit when doing it on the wrong moment, ( Kind of like using force powers in a duel on the wrong instant ) preventing the spam of it at every five seconds which also make no much sense in a saber fight/duel into which you should normally cut your own hands on the blade when doing it on the wrong angle & or with a wrong timing?...

In the movies, they never slap or kick at everyone 5 second! Maybe (?) 3 or 4 times (?) total during the whole duel, right?

Kick one
Second Kick
Third kick of the fight
Slap knockback
New defensive knockdown kick mechanic?
Slap knockback & direct hit momentum / timing

We could make block unable during the very time of the slap, kick animation, leaving the user defense open to disarm, direct body hit, if you can predict the melee move and or counter strike enough quickly! But to reward the one using the slap, kick on the good moment, slaps could be doing more damage (15/20hp) & slight knockback?

And if kick is used, which would require a slightly, slightly, slightly little longer but also more risky animation, knocking down the opponent on the ground and making it open to a direct disarm, body hit opportunity?

Spare
Kyle kills Maw
Jerec's fall

Note: When I'm talking about kicks, I'm referencing to the side kick [ use+a,s,d+melee] and not the fly kick!

I dont know what we could do about that one but to delete it... [ Considering the user would most probably cut him self on the blade for trying it ] Or perhaps make it even more risky, but also more rewarding? Maybe making the one getting fly kicked knocked down, similar to the normal acrobatic kicks, but for a longer amount of time? ( Like if he was abit stunned, confused by that move ) Similar to the Red DFA, it would leave people trying to avoid and do swift side attack maneuver to kill the fly kicker opponent.

Second note: I'd really like if we could make front, upper kick & staff kick available on all saber style by the way!

These gifts I made represent well the ideas behind my words, if you have enough imagination to materialise them in the game, I would gladly appreciate it.

 

[SomeGuy]

One big complaint I see a lot is how duels are basically just "hugging" matches. It does pretty much look like a couple of guys bashing light sticks at each other rather than sword fighting. Let's be honest here, the only time in the movies they ever get that close in a duel is when sabers are locked.

Instead of changing slap and kick, why not introduce a minimum effective saber range. That would get rid of the hugging aspect and if proper swinging distance is kept then it is out of reach of the slap/kick. So anyone attacking too close not only has their swings being ineffective but are susceptible to getting knocked down.

 

[SilverHazer]

One big complaint I see a lot is how duels are basically just "hugging" matches. It does pretty much look like a couple of guys bashing light sticks at each other rather than sword fighting. Let's be honest here, the only time in the movies they ever get that close in a duel is when sabers are locked.

Instead of changing slap and kick, why not introduce a minimum effective saber range. That would get rid of the hugging aspect and if proper swinging distance is kept then it is out of reach of the slap/kick. So anyone attacking too close not only has their swings being ineffective but are susceptible to getting knocked down.

I do like that idea! What you say I find it very true! But I also do believe that slaps and kicks need some slight adjustement to be more conform to what it should be really like... I dont like the idea of someone just slapping and kicking at my plasma blade literally constantly with absolutely no risk at all! My ideal would be a combination of both our ideas

Talking of saber lock, where is it gone? That's a feature I pretty liked in JKA! I think we could use it in Outcast too?

Here I've found two 25second short videos that show the animation really well, although i'd like it to be a bit harder than just pressing a single touch.

 

[SomeGuy]

I do like that idea! What you say I find it very true! But I also do believe that slaps and kicks need some slight adjustement to be more conform to what it should be really like... I dont like the idea of someone just slapping and kicking at my plasma blade literally constantly with absolutely no risk at all! My ideal would be a combination of both our ideas

You know, you're right. If slap counts as an opening of defences and if used against someone within the minimum range, then their attack will not hit you. But if you slap too far away then you're likely to get sliced.

 

[SilverHazer]

You know, you're right. If slap counts as an opening of defences and if used against someone within the minimum range, then their attack will not hit you. But if you slap too far away then you're likely to get sliced.

Oh yeah, now I could live with that happily with no complain, I believe!

But if possible, I'd also like it to be pushed abit to the extreme! Coupled with things we both talked about earlier in our posts, i'd like it totally hardcore into which each melee moves have all their specific and unique purposes, assets, high risk and rewards.

Like, frontal kicks, 360 crouch kicks, side kicks and slaps would and or also have to be casted, just like perfect block, on the right angle coresponding to the enemy positon and sword to get the most out of it! And if it's done too wrong, then it literally dismember you.

But I don't think we can quit do that with the current engine or if it would simply and most probably be just too much of a huge headache to script well to make it work properly! Also people would probably complain alot since the whole Jedi/Sith way to fight would literally have to be relearned entirely.

I like my games to be extreme and hard to the max ahahahaha, but I understand not everyone have my kind of tastes.

See, if blasters could 1 or 2 shots me, i'd like it that way instead of taking 4/5 shots before I die.

But yeah, once again we would have to rework the deflect mechanism probably partially or entirely, or it would simply be too overpowered... Maybe some blasters/rifles fire rate too, or perhaps the ammos allowed to them.

Yet I wouldn't mind to learn really hard and practice a kind of perfect deflection which would be based on perfect angles, blade and body position corresponding to the shots and stuff.

I'm french canadian so it's kinda hard for me to explain my ideas the way I see them, hopefully my words make some kind of sense.

I guess we'll stick to what we explained to each others earlier up there! Imma go sleep now, thank you for the conversation man

 

[MoonmanMoonman]

I always thought that AP/ACM represent some sort of Focus/Concentration in the game. The more you hit and more you dodge/PB - the more precise and deadly your strikes become. On my opinion this mechanic should be global - one variable, regardless of the number of opponents. Should fade away smoothly after 5 or so seconds being out of action, 1 ACM every 2 seconds, for example.

this tbh