Future of Sabering [Part 1]

[Tempest]

Wanting to be more transparent about sabering changes, I decided to try something a bit different. Note, this is not a discussion (that's what Part 2 will be). This is to take in people's thoughts and work out some possibilities for down the road.

I'm going to start with some mechanics, problems people have with them, and some brief thoughts on possible directions to go with them:
1) Nudge
2) Perfect Block
3) Feint
4) Parrying
5) Consecutive swings / "Spamming"
6) Imbalances in offense vs defense
7) Perks / style "flavor"
8) Flinch

1) Nudge
Intention: To help with overcoming the current state of perfect block being able to stop continued swinging.
Issue: Can interfere with controls as well as make things visually cluttering.
My thought(s): Most likely removing it to give feinting a more involved place in the system (nudge basically does what feint is intended to do anyway)

2) Perfect Block
Intention: Reward players for precise blocking.
Issue: Control is taken away (even by accidental perfect block) and the reward "scaling" is skewed (stopping a combo AND allowing for a higher damage/instant counter AND having perks that scale off of it, etc)
My thought(s): Making this consistent by not allowing control to be taken away from players by accident. Taking the ability to stop continued swinging and moving it to Mblock as one possibility. Simply removing stopping combos and changing the reward for perfect blocking is another.

3) Feint
Intention: Sacrifice a swing in order to make it harder to defend
Issue: There isn't really any issue with it from what I've seen but that's most likely because it has a very minimal presence in the face of nudge.
My thought(s): Making it more prevalent/actually able to live up to what it's supposed to be used for is the main goal.

4) Parrying
Intention: Currently lets you stop ACM being built in exchange for variable minor drains
Issue: Not really any from what I've seen but I think that's because it's a more subtle factor in things
My thought(s): Making it a less subtle factor (not to a huge degree) and into more of a tool that can be used (think parrying to 1vX in Open as a possibility)

5) Consecutive swings / "Spamming"
Intention: Sacrifice ACM gain in order to add more pressure
Issue: I'm not really sure there's any inherent problem by itself.
My thought(s): As it stands, I think lowering damage for consecutive swings was the right approach but repeating swings is still an issue (both visually and risk-vs-reward-wise)

6) Imbalances in offense vs defense
With how things stand, offense is almost punished by comparison for what defending does for people. It's a fickle thing to balance but the scaling for offense and defense should be similar rather than one being linear (offense) while the other is definitely not linear (defense and all the factors that mix into it).

7) Perks / style "flavor"
Having each style able to stand out in some way is nice. Having them stand out in ways that are so subtle that you'd never know unless you went and looked it up is not. I believe that's why the perks vs guns got removed. I'd be happy to have them back but having an easier way to identify what's doing what would be important. I'm also looking at tweaking how the current perks are so they'd be in line with the considerations to the other mechanics.

8) Flinch
Intention: Allow for gunners to be able to punish sloppy swinging
Issue: It's very binary in how it works
My thought(s): Adjusting it by RoF/FP drained in a window of time or similar trains of thought

Post your thoughts/suggestions and I'll get part 2 of this rolling when it seems appropriate.

 

[kvinto]

I like most of the ideas and it's cool that we're being told what's going on with saber system.

2) Perfect Block
Intention: Reward players for precise blocking.
Issue: Control is taken away (even by accidental perfect block) and the reward "scaling" is skewed (stopping a combo AND allowing for a higher damage/instant counter AND having perks that scale off of it, etc)
My thought(s): Making this consistent by not allowing control to be taken away from players by accident. Taking the ability to stop continued swinging and moving it to Mblock as one possibility. Simply removing stopping combos and changing the reward for perfect blocking is another.

I don't really like the idea of giving it to mblock. I guess mblock will stay the same and it stops your combo when you swingblock. Why? You can't do anything more to stop mblock so punishing someone for doing what he is supposed to do is not cool for me(same for dual perk with slap, it drains your bp even if you swingblock).

 

[MoonmanMoonman]

Just a suggestion that has been brought up many times, make parries create a blue "glow" on the crosshair like pblocks with green/yellow and bodyhits with red.

 

[Sammy]

@MoonmanMoonman Nice idea, I like it.


Maybe make it so an unsuccessful (successful but they swing blocked) mblock stops the combo? I don't know, I feel like if pblock won't stop combos then the locked combos will need to return so players can memorise directions. I also like all your ideas.

But maybe as moon said show a blue circle for parries & make it more rewarding (I.e no bp drain no matter the style, etc perks for certain styles to make 1VX viable) for all styles.

Not going to make this a discussion -- that's part 2!

 

[StarWarsGeek]

1) Nudge
Intention: To help with overcoming the current state of perfect block being able to stop continued swinging.
Issue: Can interfere with controls as well as make things visually cluttering.
My thought(s): Most likely removing it to give feinting a more involved place in the system (nudge basically does what feint is intended to do anyway)
7) Perks / style "flavor"
Having each style able to stand out in some way is nice. Having them stand out in ways that are so subtle that you'd never know unless you went and looked it up is not. I believe that's why the perks vs guns got removed. I'd be happy to have them back but having an easier way to identify what's doing what would be important. I'm also looking at tweaking how the current perks are so they'd be in line with the considerations to the other mechanics.
8) Flinch
Intention: Allow for gunners to be able to punish sloppy swinging
Issue: It's very binary in how it works
My thought(s): Adjusting it by RoF/FP drained in a window of time or similar trains of thought

I don't particularly care much about dueling as I've never found the system enjoyable, but I like the direction you want to take the system in a lot. These 3 points in particular sound really good to me.
I never liked nudge in the past and don't like it now. It feels clunky and looks silly too.
I enjoyed the 1.3 perks, even if some weren't very balanced. The variety was nice, but 1.4 seems to have returned to yellow reigning supreme in open mode. Having unique walk/run animations for each style would allow people to identify which style an opponent is using and would make bringing back saber vs gun perks a reasonable option.
Flinch is very good and only needs minor tweaking. I liked the idea of timing based on ROF/dmg before but FP drains might be better. It fits thematically too because the FP drain sort of represents how hard that shot would have been for the jedi to block. Tying to FP drain instead of ROF also prevents double edged swords for gunners such as buying a higher level clone rifle leading to shorter flinches. All levels of CR would have a short flinch because they all have the same low FP drain.

 

[Szunti]

About flinch: please don't nerf CR to be worse than P3 to kill siths. Don't make P3 the best weapon for everything. And the same with blaster. I really like that blaster is better at flinching. There is at last a reason to use it.

 

[Noob]

5) Consecutive swings / "Spamming"
If you mean the system we have now where you can combo D,D,D then I think we should keep it. It is a good tool for throwing off your opponents PBs, and it looks as if your saber is hitting the other so hard it bounces off and back on. Seems like a lightsabery thing to do.

7) Perks / style "flavor"
Does Staff not have a flinch perk? I'd like more variety in perks, like how cyan had/has 0fp drain for acrobatic abilities. (IIRC, I don't play with cyan lol )

8) Flinch
I honestly wouldn't mind if flinch was toned down, but I absolutely hate the Jedi/Sith Damage reduction. Remove pls.

 

[Stassin]

I wouldn't mind combo-breaking requiring to mblock a swingblock, but only if full PBs get a sufficient reward or rather a sufficient penalty for the one who's PBed, and it can't be weak. Although i'm pretty sure this would still result in spam becoming more prevalent once again. But it might be only slightly which wouldn't hurt too much.

Feint, i'm pretty confident that it isn't overshadowed by nudge, it's just inherently weak and useless for duel gameplay right now, and i don't see how one would change that in a reasonable way.

I'd rather we keep nudge, for a number of reasons that i'm not going to explain here because i'm curious as to how the other people who like it would defend it.

 

[Aizencin]

2) Perfect Block
Intention: Reward players for precise blocking.
Issue: Control is taken away (even by accidental perfect block) and the reward "scaling" is skewed (stopping a combo AND allowing for a higher damage/instant counter AND having perks that scale off of it, etc)
My thought(s): Making this consistent by not allowing control to be taken away from players by accident. Taking the ability to stop continued swinging and moving it to Mblock as one possibility. Simply removing stopping combos and changing the reward for perfect blocking is another.

Nothing bad at all with this feature, as long as making an MBlock drains 8 BP or so, MBlock is pretty spamable, i dont want it to be even more spammy

 

[Jediknight Fou]

A personal wish of mine is to remove the stagger at the third swing of red, im reduser myself but it irritates me somehow.
Perfectblock is fine how it is for me.
About flinch i hope it will be removed completely but this will not happen i guess *sigh*
I mentioned, that it would be good if red and purple are immune to flinch, would give these styles a purpose in open.
All classes with extralife shouldnt be allowed to flinch, soldiers have 3 extralifes and can easy kill jedi they only need to spam, not really fair.
The other way i mentioned was make flinch buyable, so the gunners have to decide if they want blaster lvl3/nade/whatever or noobflinch.
I still think flinch is the wrong way, yes jedi/sith were strong, but flinch isnt the solution, now we have noobgunners which just need to spam with there blasters.

 

[SK5]

1v2 situations should be made much more easier/viable in some way. Currently they are mostly about jumping, running, trying to get sidehits on the enemy and stopping for a moment and hope for a mblock. Some sort of parrying tweak as you suggested could be nice.

This would result in many more interesting/fun duels where you can actually have some sort of control, even when you are outnumbered.

 

[Tempest]

As a continuation/clarification:
I'm always up for discussing stuff about the saber system (or anything really), so feel free to add me if you want to throw random thoughts out.
1) For moving the combo stopping to mblock, that was mostly just the first thing that came to mind ( these are all just potential changes, nothing set in stone; the whole point of being transparent!).
2) I'm intending to bring back aspects that made previous builds shine (I.e. being able to 1vX if you're good). Rewarding skill in general where currently it's almost impossible to actually do much besides out-gimmick people (if you see me on Open as Sith in dotf, you'll probably see me make a circus of dancing around the panel if I'm last against a Jedi and additional people. Down stab is my friend <3).
3) For the consecutive swings @Noob when it comes to differentiating between them and spam, it's usually a matter of DDDD instead of D, D, D, D if that makes sense.
4) @Szunti , @StarWarsGeek , I've talked with Spaghetti as well as deliberated on it with a few others and myself (for those that don't know, I play both gunners and sabers so I understand the perspectives of both sides) and will make sure that it's not skewed horribly as far as some things being too good or becoming useless. SWG, I'd also be interested in why you've never enjoyed dueling at any point. I know dueling just doesn't float some boats but if that's not the case then I'd be open to whatever you have to share.
5) @Aizenchin , not sure if you know but Mblock actually does have timers for its use so that spamming it doesn't help much .

In general, I'm hoping for more comments about nudge (@Firestrike come out and talk with us!) before I open up the floodgates of Part 2. I'm also still figuring out if/what changes to make to a few perks as well as writing up a few options for perfect block. @Spaghetti please use your FSM powers to make an open beta type thing possible again for everyone pleaaaase!

 

[kvinto]

You could check the 1.4 Open Beta Dueling Feedback. Maybe something will be useful out of 13 pages.

 

[Sammy]

I agree with you tempest, there should be a more viable way to 1vX people.

 

[Stassin]

I can 1vX people, i don't see where the problem is.

 

[AaronAaron]

I can 1vX people, i don't see where the problem is.

That's because it's you.

 

[Stassin]

That's not what i mean, anyone can 1vX with any class as long as they are sufficiently better than the X. What, are you supposed to be able to play evenly when outnumbered by people of similar skill ? Is that the case for mb2 gunning ? How would the X feel, not being able to kill a single player who isn't any better than them even though they use teamwork ? That makes no sense and goes completely against mb2's core focus which remains teamwork...

 

[Revanic]

I'm glad you're thinking about the X, because it should be fair for them as well, but don't forget about the one, for they still matter.

Team work should, ultimately, win over a mere one person if that person's skill level is not high enough. They aren't always using team work; however, rather just abusing the fact that the saber system is designed around 1 v 1. Often the one can feel they were forced to die just because someone else showed up, and that the system really could care less about it. Nothing they could do.

We don't need any sort of thing that suddenly makes that one person play evenly with no effort, we just need something to give them a small edge so they don't feel so helpless, and can possibly retreat to their team or hold off long enough for a teammate to come help them. Nothing more, not a win button.

( Following statements are not entirely based on 1vX, because that would be too over-dramatic. )
Not everyone is so skillful, and honestly, that's not always because their new or just never learned the system. Sometimes they just couldn't learn it, as the ever changing and ranging in complexity saber system alienated them.

 

[SK5]

That's not what i mean, anyone can 1vX with any class as long as they are sufficiently better than the X. What, are you supposed to be able to play evenly when outnumbered by people of similar skill ? Is that the case for mb2 gunning ? How would the X feel, not being able to kill a single player who isn't any better than them even though they use teamwork ? That makes no sense and goes completely against mb2's core focus which remains teamwork...

You didnt seem to understand the point of making 1vX easier. When you do it against players of your skill level, of course it shouldnt be even then but when you do them against lower skill players it should be much more easy/viable. Currently it stands at the stage where you just run around, jump, try to get sides and mblock, no matter the skill of the X.

Yes you can win 1vX situations but it doesnt feel like you have any control or power over the situation at the current stage.

 

[Stassin]

Yes you can win 1vX situations but it doesnt feel like you have any control or power over the situation at the current stage.

And what, are you saying you should ? Have control over the situation when you're 1v2, really ?

Currently, 1v2 is very doable already if the 2 players are weaker than you. Mostly you just face one of them, avoiding the other, until you kill him or he backs away because he's low on BP, and then you face the other and repeat, except your ACM against both is only going to increase so eventually you'll win. Sure, when facing one you can't avoid the other 100% but still a good amount if the 2 really are weaker, by mostly running around the one you face. If somehow they won't let you do that, you can still fight both at the same time provided you run away enough to prevent the "one in front, one in the back" situation which isn't manageable. Of course, for that to work you need to be faster, more accurate than them, that only makes sense. MBlocking is also alot more likely in 1v2 than 1v1 because you'll be running alot, so they have to run to catch you aswell, which means non-swingblocks; since you're the one running, you can bait those and mblock, and on the other hand, you can do swingblocks because they aren't running away from you, on the contrary they are running into you.

Abuse the map and your force powers too. Hell, this is what movie-like duels should be about. Not some forever walking standoff with only saber swings all the time.

Sure, if you're actually going to win a 1v2, the 2 need to be really much weaker, if they are just slightly weaker they'll support each other and prevent you from ever killing one (well, unless you consistently gain ACM until you're full, in that case they'll have a tough time). 1v3 or more ? Unless i know all of them are complete newbies, i don't dare to engage that. In open mode of course. mb2_duel_office in FA with monster Palpatine ? Sure, anyone can fight evenly 1v4 in that case. And that's how it should be... play FA if that's what you are looking for, but don't break open mode for it.

There is nothing wrong with 1vX at the moment. I don't mind much if you make it a little bit easier somehow without breaking other things, but absolutely nothing drastic is required. And please avoid artificial features that come in play only in 1vX situations.

Actually, what about the current build makes 1vX harder than old builds ? Surely there is the fact that wild 0 BP spam is no longer viable, and that's a major factor (yeah surely you could feel like you had control over the situation even when you had 0 BP, since all you had to do was avoid being hit and eventually by spamming with 0 BP your opponents would get 0 BP aswell), but besides that, maybe the fact that dueling is more technical and less of a random hopeful gamble ? i.e. you actually have to do more than just swing around with better timing, so of course it's harder. Timing alone is alot easier to control when running away in 1vX than swing directions and PB aim, so in older builds 1vX was easier because timing was basically the only thing you needed in duels, the rest being much less important.