Future of Sabering [Part 1]

[Tempest]

Wanting to be more transparent about sabering changes, I decided to try something a bit different. Note, this is not a discussion (that's what Part 2 will be). This is to take in people's thoughts and work out some possibilities for down the road.

I'm going to start with some mechanics, problems people have with them, and some brief thoughts on possible directions to go with them:
1) Nudge
2) Perfect Block
3) Feint
4) Parrying
5) Consecutive swings / "Spamming"
6) Imbalances in offense vs defense
7) Perks / style "flavor"
8) Flinch

1) Nudge
Intention: To help with overcoming the current state of perfect block being able to stop continued swinging.
Issue: Can interfere with controls as well as make things visually cluttering.
My thought(s): Most likely removing it to give feinting a more involved place in the system (nudge basically does what feint is intended to do anyway)

2) Perfect Block
Intention: Reward players for precise blocking.
Issue: Control is taken away (even by accidental perfect block) and the reward "scaling" is skewed (stopping a combo AND allowing for a higher damage/instant counter AND having perks that scale off of it, etc)
My thought(s): Making this consistent by not allowing control to be taken away from players by accident. Taking the ability to stop continued swinging and moving it to Mblock as one possibility. Simply removing stopping combos and changing the reward for perfect blocking is another.

3) Feint
Intention: Sacrifice a swing in order to make it harder to defend
Issue: There isn't really any issue with it from what I've seen but that's most likely because it has a very minimal presence in the face of nudge.
My thought(s): Making it more prevalent/actually able to live up to what it's supposed to be used for is the main goal.

4) Parrying
Intention: Currently lets you stop ACM being built in exchange for variable minor drains
Issue: Not really any from what I've seen but I think that's because it's a more subtle factor in things
My thought(s): Making it a less subtle factor (not to a huge degree) and into more of a tool that can be used (think parrying to 1vX in Open as a possibility)

5) Consecutive swings / "Spamming"
Intention: Sacrifice ACM gain in order to add more pressure
Issue: I'm not really sure there's any inherent problem by itself.
My thought(s): As it stands, I think lowering damage for consecutive swings was the right approach but repeating swings is still an issue (both visually and risk-vs-reward-wise)

6) Imbalances in offense vs defense
With how things stand, offense is almost punished by comparison for what defending does for people. It's a fickle thing to balance but the scaling for offense and defense should be similar rather than one being linear (offense) while the other is definitely not linear (defense and all the factors that mix into it).

7) Perks / style "flavor"
Having each style able to stand out in some way is nice. Having them stand out in ways that are so subtle that you'd never know unless you went and looked it up is not. I believe that's why the perks vs guns got removed. I'd be happy to have them back but having an easier way to identify what's doing what would be important. I'm also looking at tweaking how the current perks are so they'd be in line with the considerations to the other mechanics.

8) Flinch
Intention: Allow for gunners to be able to punish sloppy swinging
Issue: It's very binary in how it works
My thought(s): Adjusting it by RoF/FP drained in a window of time or similar trains of thought

Post your thoughts/suggestions and I'll get part 2 of this rolling when it seems appropriate.

 

[Darth Pujge]

I really think the 1.3 gunner perks should be added back, they really helped to make every lightsaber style useful in open in some way. Right now, everyone just runs around with yellow. The strong styles get flinched all the time because they're slow, the fast styles deal really low damage and so they struggle against the tanky classes, and yellow happens to be the easiest style to learn. I think the reintroduction of the gunner perks would help make the other lightsaber styles more helpful in open.

Also, on the subject of moving the combo stopping to mblocking, I've managed to accidentally mblock more people than intentionally mblock, so I don't think that's going to help much.

 

[SK5]

@Stassin as i said it is possible, but you dont have any real control over it and its more frustrating than it is fun for me at least. You may like more about running and jumping in 1vX sitations or 1v1 situations but to me, it just feels a bit chaotic, unless playing an acro style. Dueling is built around 1v1's and as open is played more (personally i prefer dueling) sabers should have some tools they can use for multiple opponents. No i dont want any external buffs that are triggered in when facing multiple opponents, it should be something thats always there but isnt a game changer in 1v1 situations.

You said that you wouldnt dare to engage 3 or more people if they are not complete newbs, that a is true part of the reason why it should be tweaked imo. Even if you are the most skilled duelist in mb2, you cant win against 3-4 opponents even if they are new, unless playing the chaotic way, jumping etc. Playing like a circus artist shouldnt be the only solution to winning 1vX situations.

You may think that jumping and all that stuff is the best way there can be to 1vX situations. If you ask me, i would make it more calm.

In SW universe 4 padawans wouldnt be able to beat 1 sith lord. They wouldnt stand a chance, unless if the sith was running like a madman, jumping ALL the time, he wouldnt be able to concentrate on the fight that well and could be beaten. This is basically the formula of 1vX situations in mb2 right now which doesnt make sense.

TLDR: Dueling vs multiple opponents is like being a circus artist, you just run and jump around which doesnt feel good to me, nor doest it make that much sense if it was a real duel in the star wars universe. It should be made more calm like the duels actually are in the movies, without that constant barrage of jumping and running. Just my opinion.

Yes i know that the current way to deal with 1vX is kinda like using the ataru saber form but still not actually that.

 

[Stassin]

In SW universe 4 padawans wouldnt be able to beat 1 sith lord.

Of course, which is why we have FA mb2_duel_office.

More generally and without going into extremes though, the main issue in 1vX is still and always has been the backwhacks. Just giving 360° blocking capability changes the whole story, without anything else needed, and suddenly you don't need to run/jump as much (if your class is OP in FA or if your opponents are weak in open mode of course, otherwise you'll still be overpowered 1vX). Obviously, giving 360° blocking capability all the time to jedi/sith is too drastic, and just giving it as a perk in FA wouldn't solve the issue being discussed here in open mode. And backwhacks, definitely need to remain a part of the gameplay. So i dunno what kind of compromise can be found here.

 

[chicknman]

all this talk about how jedi and sith need to be buffed so they can 1vX... kael can do it with ease every time i play against him.. i think the solution is: get gud.

 

[Sammy]

all this talk about how jedi and sith need to be buffed so they can 1vX... kael can do it with ease every time i play against him.. i think the solution is: get gud.

We're talking about when you're of equal skill to your opponent.

 

[Noob]

Oh no I cant 1v2 people while sabering! Too bad I don't rely on teamwork!

 

[Razi.]

I really think the 1.3 gunner perks should be added back, they really helped to make every lightsaber style useful in open in some way. Right now, everyone just runs around with yellow. The strong styles get flinched all the time because they're slow, the fast styles deal really low damage and so they struggle against the tanky classes, and yellow happens to be the easiest style to learn. I think the reintroduction of the gunner perks would help make the other lightsaber styles more helpful in open.

Also, on the subject of moving the combo stopping to mblocking, I've managed to accidentally mblock more people than intentionally mblock, so I don't think that's going to help much.

AMEN ! Flinch is effin bull.....

 

[Liniyka_xddd]

lmao, try to fight against 2 jedi/sith as a gunner

I'm sure you gonna have a great time

 

[MoonmanMoonman]

lmao, try to fight against 2 jedi/sith as a gunner

I'm sure you gonna have a great time

Well, SOMETIMES it works, but you really have to be lucky with the sith/jedi parrying their own attacks and not cooperating.
Rarely ever, should i say.

 

[SomeGuy]

I would just like a system that is more intuitive and looks more fluid. Right now it just seems as if players walk up and bash sabers at each other until one dies. Not really any sword play. I think part of why it looks so odd is because players are touching models while fighting rather than being actual saber swing distance apart. Maybe have an ideal distance for fighting, like real swords. Also, can't remember, were saber locks in base MP? Able to be put here?

 

[Razi.]

lmao, try to fight against 2 jedi/sith as a gunner

I'm sure you gonna have a great time

Don't want to get too deep because this will result in a debate of itself. That statement doesn't really say much, I can respond with saying "What about 2 gunners vs jedi/sith - won't be a great time" Of course there are a lot of different details we're neglecting - the skill levels of both the gunners and the jedi/sith; the type of the gunner, their chosen guns; the saber style chosen by the jedi/sith, the force powers they have etc.
There is a lot of info about flinch and even nudge in the 1.4 sabering feedback thread, and in it a lot of ppl disagreed and said they are either against it or don't like it. I, personally, don't like those features because I have never seen a jedi or sith, be it in the animated series or the movies, flinch or even nudge while deflecting a blaster or dueling. Those two features make a mess of sabering.
I do know that removing flinch would kind of hinder gunners, but being as objective as possible - gunners are deadly long/mid range, jedi/sith are deadly at melee range. Not to mention how badly the flinch hinders jedi/sith who go against wookies/sbds or even dekas, putting the stronger/slower styles to shame.

 

[SK5]

Oh no I cant 1v2 people while sabering! Too bad I don't rely on teamwork!

Yes thats a valid point, you should work as a team and not get into an 1v2 situation if some of your teammates are alive. It would still be fun and offer a new category of custom duels to have some valid tools to use in a 1v2 situation.

 

[StarWarsGeek]

I've talked with Spaghetti as well as deliberated on it with a few others and myself (for those that don't know, I play both gunners and sabers so I understand the perspectives of both sides) and will make sure that it's not skewed horribly as far as some things being too good or becoming useless. SWG, I'd also be interested in why you've never enjoyed dueling at any point. I know dueling just doesn't float some boats but if that's not the case then I'd be open to whatever you have to share.

I think SomeGuy summed up my frustrations with dueling pretty well. It doesn't feel very fluid and much of the system isn't intuitive. Unlike other melee based games like Mount&Blade or Chivalry (which IMO are pretty intuitive), you can't become very proficient at sabering by playing the "main" gamemode, you need to spend quite a bit of time with other people who understand it already on servers dedicated to dueling. (From the perspective of someone who isn't interested in mastering dueling, it's also rather frustrating when the system undergoes fairly major changes every other patch and often renders past skills gained useless, although that's unavoidable when you're trying to fix problems. )

I find nudge invasive and annoying, not just in duels but against guns as well. I've never been a fan of it in the past or now due to how it interrupts player control and allows for swings without windup animations (which IMO, is bad, at least against gunners because it removes much of the risk involved with making a generally lethal attack).

I understand that the PB mechanics were changed to be camera based in order to make it more consistent for all styles and prevent certain swing directions from being significantly harder to block, but the old "put your saber in the way of the enemy saber" mechanic was much more intuitive and looked more fluid IMO. It feels like I should be trying to duel in first person (which looks absolutely atrocious and physically sickens me) in order to PB well with the "point the camera at the PB zones" system. It's not very intuitive in third person and is obviously something that requires a lot of practice in 1v1 scenarios on duel servers. I feel like this current system really only works well in 1v1 situations, which may be part of why people have found 1vXs significantly harder than in the past. I wish there were a way to bring back the old system while preventing certain swings from being too hard to block and certain styles (like duals) making it far too easy to get free PBs.

One of my favorite changes to the system over the past few years has been unlocking combo directions. Only having certain directions be valid for comboing in different styles was really unintuitive and killed fluidity. However this has also been accompanied by an increasingly defensively oriented duel system where long combos are discouraged, which IMO leads to boring duels (both to watch and participate in).

For the past several years, when I'm up against anyone who has even a remote inkling of how dueling works (i.e. anyone who's ever spent any amount of time on a duel server) I find the most efficient way to win is just to spam slap until they forget to or are too slow on the swingblock, after which I can start punching them to death. Or just resort to spamming dual/staff kata, speed lunge, and rollstab.

Also, can't remember, were saber locks in base MP? Able to be put here?

IIRC, there's been several discussions about this on the old forums. Getting into a saber lock would probably get one or both saberists killed by gunners or other saberists due to the team nature of MB2. Also just spamming M1 as fast as possible to win at something is kind of really boring.

I have never seen a jedi or sith, be it in the animated series or the movies, flinch or even nudge while deflecting a blaster or dueling. ...
I do know that removing flinch would kind of hinder gunners, but being as objective as possible - gunners are deadly long/mid range, jedi/sith are deadly at melee range. Not to mention how badly the flinch hinders jedi/sith who go against wookies/sbds or even dekas, putting the stronger/slower styles to shame.

Luke flinches when he gets shot in the hand during the sail barge fight. Flinch confirmed canon. Also, the point is that you get flinched when you fail to deflect the shot. There aren't many instances in the movies/shows where jedi fail to block a shot (and when they do fail, they're usually dead, but this would be very unforgiving gameplay). It's not like jedi/sith are immune to pain.

But gunners certainly are NOT deadly at long/mid range versus jedi/sith. FP drains are too low outside of IDR to do any meaningful damage to a saberist in a 1v1 situation. Gunners have to get up close to kill saberists, and it's not fair if saberists can just tank shots and kill the gunner with HP to spare. Someone mentioned in another thread that high knockback was tried during beta tests before the introduction of flinch and scrapped because it was too unforgiving/frustrating for saberists and looked silly. The only fair "replacement" for flinch I can think of would be getting rid of DR completely and reducing jedi/sith HP to around 50 so 1 or 2 shots during a swing is a kill. Flinch needs to be tweaked, not removed.

Although red/purple being significantly less useful in open due to flinch is definitely an issue (partially due to removal of open mode perks, although red and purple's 1.3 perks were OP). In addition to flinch length being affected by weapon HP/FP dmg, it might also be good to have flinch length be partially determined by what style you're using.

 

[StarWarsGeek]

(Accidentally quoted instead of editted my post, is there no longer a delete button?)

 

[Razi.]

You do bring up some very good points. Indeed it would be cool to modify flinch in some way(REMOVE xD). Only one thing I cant agree on. Where does Luke flinch ? Although it's kind of stupid to try and be movie-accurate - jedi/sith would be insanely op then.

 

[StarWarsGeek]

Where does Luke flinch ?

It's after that clip, he gets shot in the hand while fighting on top of the sail barge shortly before him and Leia swing away on a rope. He sort of flinches for a moment (even though it was his robot hand) and looks at his hand like, "Oh shit, I got shot."

 

[SomeGuy]

You do bring up some very good points. Indeed it would be cool to modify flinch in some way(REMOVE xD). Only one thing I cant agree on. Where does Luke flinch ? Although it's kind of stupid to try and be movie-accurate - jedi/sith would be insanely op then.

Dude... Coleman Trebor... Jango flinches him like a boss.

 

[Razi.]

In the entire video that I posted there is absolutely no flinch, only deflects. Someguy, I am not sure you know what flinch is.

It's after that clip, he gets shot in the hand while fighting on top of the sail barge shortly before him and Leia swing away on a rope. He sort of flinches for a moment (even though it was his robot hand) and looks at his hand like, "Oh shit, I got shot."

Geek, you are going to make me get the full film only because of that scene xD *Sigh* I guess I will... and of course if you are correct, I'll admit it. Anyways this went kind of off-topic. As I said earlier I do agree with the remarks Geek and SomeGuy have made and I don't want to be fueling a meaningless discussion - the topic of this thread is 'Future of Sabering' not 'reviewing scenes from movies'

 

[Razi.]

Getting back to the topic at hand. SomeGuy showed me a scene in which a jedi actually flinches after getting shot, which, I guess makes flinches canon. However in it, it seems like the jedi flinches because he was caught offguard and was not directly facing the shooter or wasn't focused enough. That gave me an aidea - how about if flinch is made to occur only when jedi/sith are low on fp, not when they are swinging next to a gunner. For example when they are lower than 30 or 20 FP and they try to deflect - they get a flinch. That way gunners will be rewarded for accurately/continuously firing at jedi/sith and the force users will be more mindful when trying to deflect, they wont just be standing there on 1 spot, deflecting every shot like a boss.
That way gunners won't have such a big advantage as they do now, and jedi/sith wont be as op as they would be if there was no flinch at all.

 

[StarWarsGeek]

That gave me an aidea - how about if flinch is made to occur only when jedi/sith are low on fp, not when they are swinging next to a gunner. For example when they are lower than 30 or 20 FP and they try to deflect - they get a flinch. That way gunners will be rewarded for accurately/continuously firing at jedi/sith and the force users will be more mindful when trying to deflect, they wont just be standing there on 1 spot, deflecting every shot like a boss.
That way gunners won't have such a big advantage as they do now, and jedi/sith wont be as op as they would be if there was no flinch at all.

You just basically described a really old MB2 feature called stagger (I dont even remember when it was removed, sometime during the early RC builds maybe). It was probably removed due to a combination of it not being useful (outside of concentrated fire from multiple gunners) and giving jedi an advantage through no-windup swings at the end of the stagger. Unless you massively increase inside and outside IDR drains, bringing back stagger won't stop jedi from simply from hiding behind a corner until someone gets close then tanking shots for a free kill. Tanking shots at close range while continuing a swing is the problem that flinch was introduced to solve. As a gunner, there's really no counter to that other than praying for a lucky headshot. It's often unavoidable, especially when playing on the attacking team.