Force Sense: FA-Only ?

[Stassin]

Just throwing in a poll to see what at least ppl lurking on forums think about it.

Ideas like making sense be just a warning sign on radar when an enemy is closeby, not giving precise locations, have been discussed recently, but ultimately just knowing about an enemy's presence is still a big advantage. And that's as little an advantage as it's going to get, really, that's pretty much as weak as we could make force sense.

So what about removing force sense from open mode completely ? Only FA classes would still freely have its powerful current version, and it's fine for jedi/sith to be uber-good-at-surviving/ambushing/teamworking/killing 1v1/pretty much everything apart from killing enemies at a distance characters in FA.

Not adding a 3rd possible response in the form of "keep it in open mode but a weaker version", that kind of opinion should go in the "No." option because ultimately it's keeping Sense in open mode.

 

[T r i s t a n]

Alright, here's another "you can't be this dense."

I said that CR3 Clones are very capable of mowing down Sith.

A CR3 Clone is a gunner.

This DOES NOT IMPLY THAT ALL GUNNERS ARE CR3 CLONES.

this is basic logic.

Then people should use the CR3 Clone to work to their strengths... They want to take advantage of Flinch right?
If not, then git gud as the other "slower shooting" classes.
What you are saying is:
"I wanna play as a Pistol user and mow down Sith/Jedi like flies! But I can't... I don't shoot fast enough... Hmm it can't be me... Must be them, NERF THE JEDI/SITH!"

 

[Lessen]

Not every engagement is lone-gunner vs lone-saberist, so even if CR3 clone is fantastic in that one context, there's tons of reasons to use other gunner classes instead, for the sake of other contexts. In particular, I see CR3 clone as being not great for big long range fights, and arguably being punished the hardest by grenades.

Besides, Lightning Hops mean Sith can win that context too, I think.

What you are saying is:
"I wanna play as a Pistol user and mow down Sith/Jedi like flies! But I can't... I don't shoot fast enough... Hmm it can't be me... Must be them, NERF THE JEDI/SITH!"

... I don't have any problem with the fact that a basic gunner (without any special tools aside from a gun) tends to lose against a saberist of equal skill. Or that even competent gunners with special tools tend to lose consistently against good saberists. Nerfing Sense 3 doesn't do anything about that, in an arena 1v1 kind of context. It just makes it so lone saberists are more vulnerable to ambushes and can't just charge around the map gung-ho at full speed.

We can let saberists have their excellence in honorable duels, just let us have some dishonorable stuff too. Keep your power fantasy but give us the ol' Order 66 shot-to-the-spine.

 

[T r i s t a n]

People like you.
Will kill MBII.

 

[Lessen]

Your argument's been reduced back to "MB2 shouldn't change, so fuck off." If you just want MB2 to stay the way it is, because you like the current state of things, then say that. I like the way MB2 is, too.

I'm just curious about other routes it can take. Following those other routes presents a risk of alienating existing players, but it also presents a possibility of making the game even cooler, better balanced, more intuitive, more synergistic (teamplay-oriented), less frustrating, etc.

Given that MB2 is still alive after 13 years, I think the devs and community are at least smart enough to recognize when a change has had legitimately disastrous results, so I don't think we'll do anything that kills the game.

 

[Jediknight Fou]

I don't have any problem with the fact that a basic gunner (without any special tools aside from a gun) tends to lose against a saberist of equal skill. Or that even competent gunners with special tools tend to lose consistently against good saberists. Nerfing Sense 3 doesn't do anything about that, in an arena 1v1 kind of context. It just makes it so lone saberists are more vulnerable to ambushes and can't just charge around the map gung-ho at full speed.

Great, if they cant see where enemies are and get ambushed they are dead right away.
FP drains to fast for this kind of crap.
If you play dotf (because it will 80% of the week) you can then completly ignore side as a jedi, because you cant nothing do if a bunch of flinchnoobs hide at the end of the corridor.
Cant swing and after a few seconds fp is empty and you are death.
End of the joke.

 

[Stassin]

Great, if they cant see where enemies are and get ambushed they are dead right away.

Just like gunners.

 

[Lessen]

Great, if they cant see where enemies are and get ambushed they are dead right away.

Yes, please! You know how you would survive that ambush instead? Move with your team so you can fall back behind them at a moment's notice. When moving into a dangerous place, have your guard up and be evasive. Send an expendable Soldier in to test the waters. Be on high alert. ANYTHING except being an imperturbable psychic god.

Outright removing Sense 3 (or even just doing Hexodius's danger-detection nerf) would probably put the defending team at a decisive advantage on every map..? But then again, all maps have multiple routes, and the attacking team gains the ability to hide where and how they're attacking, making it easier to fake an attack on Main while really pressuring Side, or to try to sneak towards obj.

..which might develop in to the defending team learning to just play extremely conservatively. Maybe that wouldn't be a problem. I don't know either way, I just want to see.

 

[Jediknight Fou]

Just like gunners.

Most of them have extralife and are flinchprotected so...

Yes, please! You know how you would survive that ambush instead? Move with your team so you can fall back behind them at a moment's notice. When moving into a dangerous place, have your guard up and be evasive. Send an expendable Soldier in to test the waters. Be on high alert. ANYTHING except being an imperturbable psychic god.

Yeah thats the problem, if sense get this hard nerfed like stassin mentioned in the nerf thread i wouldnt move at all and many could do the same.
Most jedi/sith i met on server are still pissed because of flinch and i dont believe they would help more when they cant see.
I just would call a small defendable place my new home.

 

[Lessen]

Removing Sense would totally slow down gameplay, I agree. But if you just sit forever when you're the attacking team, you'll lose, so you'd adjust. Saying that "saberists are still mad about other changes" is just observing the fact that there will always be someone mad about any change to something they were familiar with.

 

[swagmaster]

what about sense only being able to be useable when meditating? what about making sense non-saberist force whore only?

 

[Jediknight Fou]

Removing Sense would totally slow down gameplay, I agree. But if you just sit forever when you're the attacking team, you'll lose, so you'd adjust. Saying that "saberists are still mad about other changes" is just observing the fact that there will always be someone mad about any change to something they were familiar with.

Well i wouldnt stay as attacker, thats timewasting and annoying, but as defender i would just sit out and wait to ambush them.
As attacker i would stay then behind my team, not a very useful position hm but if you cant see where enemy is it would be one.

 

[Lessen]

what about sense only being able to be useable when meditating? what about making sense non-saberist force whore only?

for what it's worth, both of those have already been suggested earlier in the thread. Not that they're not worth debating! They've just already been mentioned so the devs maybe already have them on some kind of (mental) list of possibilities.

My thoughts: I like FW-only Sense because it legitimizes FW a bit, and makes the "team radar" into a very vulnerable target. There's some problems with making Sense meditation-only, such as that you could easily do quick scans by just meditating for a moment. To counter that, I already suggested making it so you can only sense while meditating, AND the radius starts out small and expands over time.

Well i wouldnt stay as attacker, thats timewasting and annoying, but as defender i would just sit out and wait to ambush them.
As attacker i would stay then behind my team, not a very useful position hm but if you cant see where enemy is it would be one.

that might sound boring to you(?), but it's the kind of cautious, weighty dynamic I'm personally interested in. There would be a lot of ambushes. The Third Person camera already gives a pretty advantage to ambushers, so maybe without Sense the game would actually become tedious because of so many impossible-to-anticipate ambushes. Maybe! I dunno. I want to see.

 

[swagmaster]

the 2 i suggested and were already suggested are what i think can nerf sense enough,

 

[Jediknight Fou]

for what it's worth, both of those have already been suggested earlier in the thread. Not that they're not worth debating! They've just already been mentioned so the devs maybe already have them on some kind of (mental) list of possibilities.

My thoughts: I like FW-only Sense because it legitimizes FW a bit, and makes the "team radar" into a very vulnerable target. There's some problems with making Sense meditation-only, such as that you could easily do quick scans by just meditating for a moment. To counter that, I already suggested making it so you can only sense while meditating, AND the radius starts out small and expands over time.



that might sound boring to you(?), but it's the kind of cautious, weighty dynamic I'm personally interested in. There would be a lot of ambushes. The Third Person camera already gives a pretty advantage to ambushers, so maybe without Sense the game would actually become tedious because of so many impossible-to-anticipate ambushes. Maybe! I dunno. I want to see.

Didnt say its boring and maybe this could work what the devs plan, but i will not change my opinion, because as saberist i think we got nerfed enough and should instead get some buffs again.
I for once wait for the next update, before i even start to think about changing my opinion and get gunnerfriendlier.

 

[Szunti]

Removing Sense would totally slow down gameplay, I agree.

How? I don't get this. People usually open doors and use 3rd person to look inside, then get inside and optionally check if their is a saberist hiding behind. It takes at most a couple seconds. Teams with only gunners are as fast as jedi with sense. What slows them down is if they meet the enemy but that is the same with sense. There are campers too but that has nothing to do with sense either.

 

[Lessen]

How?

Because at every possible danger spot, everyone (including saberists) will have to be wary of an ambush from any possible position. Whereas at this point, roamer Sense saberists exist who sprint freely through any spot that doesn't have any enemies. And the existence of sense deters a lot of potential ambush strategies. It would slow down gameplay to some miserable degree, I don't think, but it would certainly check the pace of it...

 

[----Kas----]

You know what? If you don't have good ideas how to develope this mod (and you ideas are not good) maybe you should create some special team that will do a brainstorm and invent new cool, features that can be implemented. You could introduce them later as developer. If you think that you can invent everything yourself you are heading toward disaster Stassin. Instead of nerfing jedi/sith (and you said that on the server one night cit:" (...) this class is going to be nerfed badly" ) maybe think of adding some diversity to the game?
Why Mandos can no longer shoot rockets while flying? Why can't they use e-11 anymore? Why don't they have an acces to the disruptor or other type of sniper rifle? I'ts just an example. It's the same for other classes.
The game is getting boring. I mean really boring. Once you can use most weapons, once you can duel well, there is nothing that can surprise you in open mode. I'm not even mentioning duel mode, where noone actually duels anymore. You introduced new saber system, cool, it made me very good as I can play defensively, but it's BOOOOOOOORING. <-------------- read it again. Most people will tell you that. And it's not damn LEARN TO PLAY issue. I know new system, I learned it, I am good at it, and I am bored with it.
Future of sabering etc. etc. changing styles, adding perks... Future of force etc etc ---> some other nonsense. Simple situation, (I will use mando because I used to like this class) I stand against jedi. So what are my options? Ee-3, westars, flame, rocket, melee. Wrist blaster is still useless and we all know that. So first two options I can shoot and pray for flinch, or snipe in close range to lower jedi's force points then flee with jetpack. Repeat. I can burn him, but if he has brain and some hp he will just run through and cut me in half. I can rocket him, he pushes im dead. I can YOLO melee him and die. With such a slow getup being pushed/pulled usually ends with death. What I want to say, it's not jedi/sith who are OP, it's lack of diversity of gunner classes what makes jedi so strong as gunners don't have many options. Why don't you give mandos a vibrosword (similar to the one used by Vizla in the fight against reborned Maul) and saber defend level 1 for example so they can at least slow the jedi down? Mandalorians are all in all the great warriors. It would be a cool feature and would add more diversity. What's more, people who are really good in dueling could stand against noob jedi's in this situation.
Over the years developers removed many cool features. The game may be more transparent now, but it doesn't mean it's better and more enjoyable. What happened to grip? Why is it so useless now? I mean it's very powerful but you can't really choke to death a solider even if you have 100% FP. It's not very Star Wars like. On the other hand, why did you make a game where 1 good solider can win vs. 3 jedi? Why are wookies so strong? (and don't tell me to counter them with red style - I already know that). I just feel that I don't have many options to choose from which is really bad.
The whole pool about removing force sense... I have an impression that you want to remove everything to have less work. Maybe add something? Add force drain to the open mode? Add some other force powers. Most people play open mode now, add something from FA so they can have FUN <---- read it again as it's the second key word of this post. Add some weapons, skills, so gunners will be able to surprise jedi/sith. There is your balance. Give people chance to be less predictable. You don't know what skills? What weapons? Maybe your job should be implementing others ideas, not inventing? Deal with it, you can't do everything yourself and as you want and expect people to be meat for your pro dueling skills. In b18 I used to have more fun with this mod, even though it was not perfect...
You may agree, you may disagree, but one thing I know. After seeing this pool I am 100% sure that you don't have good ideas and strategy on how to develop this mod. I suggest you make small frequent public updates, add things and check how they work, and what people think. Let MB2 community be your source of ideas. Because now, noone wants to share their ideas. People know that you will ignore them anyway. Yes, the purpose of this post is criticism of the things you did and things you are going to do. Stop doing what you are doing and listen to people. At least once.


P.S. 100% sure that chaos the chaotic will come up with some trololo comment that will undermine my post, good luck.

 

[Stassin]

I played some FA where a jedi class had no Force Sense and it was great fun because i went and focused sharply on the actual game instead of relying on some omniscient power that removes my fun of trying to anticipate where the enemies are based on game sense and being surprised. Just because there is this poll doesn't mean sense is going to be removed (like hell that would be possible, some among the dev team would oppose it and anyways even if it was up to me alone it still wouldn't happen), but it's to see how many people know that this kind of experience is possible; like Oddlewad is desperately trying to explain, removing this ability would open up a large avenue of gameplay factors which can be amazingly fun to take into account as a player. There is also fun in seeing all enemy positions and planning your next moves accordingly, of course. But what if you couldn't do that and jedi received some buffs in other areas ?

 

[Lessen]

tl;dr add more mechanics so there's more mixup options

I didn't expect much of this fucking wall of text but it actually had some depth of analysis and original thoughts. That being said, it seemed to boil down to "can we have more options so we can pull off more surprising mixups." This game already has more mixup/mindgame options than almost any other game out there, as far as I can tell. Hmm... I agree on your analysis of Mando vs Jedi and agree that it's kind of boring, but I think where the game really shines is interactions between larger squads. It's fine if 1v1 isn't tremendously interesting, because this isn't actually a fighting game. It's a blend of fighting game and tactical shooter. :0

Also, this

, why did you make a game where 1 good solider can win vs. 3 jedi?

is just wildly nonsensical. A good soldier can't win against 3 GOOD Jedi, they'll get around him easily. And you can't complain about a good soldier killing three idiot padawans, because that just makes sense.

Oddlewad is desperately trying to explain

oh somebody noticed.

Oh so Stassin, even though Sense absolutely won't be removed, is there any plausible chance of, I dunno, a No-Sense (... "Nonsense") alternative mode showing up sooner rather than later, as an experiment? Is it possible to make a custom Open mode like that? Or would the nearest approximation be a custom FA with a bunch of built-in classes based on common Open mode builds... which would be fun too.

 

[Hexodious]

I like the doom and gloom of flinch and no sense.

I played some FA where a jedi class had no Force Sense and it was great fun because i went and focused sharply on the actual game instead of relying on some omniscient power that removes my fun of trying to anticipate where the enemies are based on game sense and being surprised.

This, I never play wallhack(sense) and always do well as Jedi.

Just because there is this poll doesn't mean sense is going to be removed (like hell that would be possible, some among the dev team would oppose it and anyways even if it was up to me alone it still wouldn't happen), but it's to see how many people know that this kind of experience is possible; like Oddlewad is desperately trying to explain, removing this ability would open up a large avenue of gameplay factors which can be amazingly fun to take into account as a player. There is also fun in seeing all enemy positions and planning your next moves accordingly, of course. But what if you couldn't do that and jedi received some buffs in other areas ?

My thoughts in a nutshell.