While I agree the sense should be kept, in it is current form there is no doubt it is a wall-hack, which is bad for the depth of the game and limiting the possible approaches for map design.
Currently, in competetive (what there is left of it) a jedi/sith is a must on both sides and most maps simply due to the two abilities he adds to the team: pushing nades and looking at enemies through walls. While the first one usually leads to an interesting strife between the teams on who can throw a nade better, push it, re-push it back, etc, the sense as an ability completely shutdowns any possible sneaky and stealthy options for the attacking team. What is the sense of trying any diversions and distractions if the jedi will call you out on it long before you get into position to get anything done? This is very bad for competitive.
So far I see zero actual properly argumented opinions in support of keeping sense the same as it is.
The arguments of Tristan are not realistic and sometimes completely illogical.
Think about it, in order for a Jedi/Sith to be effective they need to close the gap and go for the melee kill, but sometimes it is very unwise because you sense too many enemies so you hang back and wait for your moment. Without sense, you would rush in and die instantly from the gun fire.
Or you could just use your brains and knowledge of the map as well as the sounds inside the game and positional awareness of you and your teammates to know that right now you do not need to rush into the particular position. What is wrong with game sense as a skill of the player? Would you like to keep it completely out of the game as well?
Removing sense will promote a silly playstyle for Sith/Jedi where they are forced to hide behind walls and wait for people to come across to maaaaybe sneak attack kill them.
This is straight up wrong and illogical. The fact you don't see your opponent through walls does not mean you don't know where they are. And it definitely does not mean all forceusers will become too careful all of a sudden. In fact, in the current live build the force users have extreme amounts of options in terms of ways of closing the distance. The the fact any map has cover allows for a skill-based use of this cover to regen FP if needed and close up the distance, the fact there is IDR in the game and the way it currently works further enchances these options. And I'm not even mentioning the fact you can run around any gunner (except SBD and Wook because of their melee) indefinitely and your FP does not get lower than 75%! Which is crazy that you can do this when you think about it! And at any point you can just make a swing for a kill. The deflect arc is wide enough to defend from most angles up to the moment when you get into reach, which helps in larger teamfights. FP regen rates and HP damage reduction (if used correctly) also adds a significant amount of survivability. At least to the person, that knows how these mechanics work and think on finding ways to use them in a fight. With such options in play sense is not necessary to be able to get kills.
Jedi/Sith will then be a patient players class ... as their gameplay would be slowed down greatly by being forced to act far more cautiously, they would also become useless as a Support class, you simply wouldn't be able to have the sense of awareness to spot and protect for your team.
They would not become a support class, and as to slowdown of the gameplay, that would be true only up to the moment of the actual engagement. Besides that, isn't it close to the spirit of movies?
I literally see no argumentation in all of these, all I see is a more civilized modification on this: "But it is too hard, I just want to run around, press one button and kill people! I can't do it anymore! Don't nerf my jedi, pls!!!!1111oneoneone"... It actually becomes silly by this point. Why do I stay a top fragger when I pick jedi in current live builds? Even if the opponent's team has a lot of gunners? Why isn't flinch an issue for me, but it is for the horde of noobs that don't care to think on the way they play the game?
Puppytine made somewhat more sense, but still not a single solid argument.
Even though there are 12 gunner classes, they all basically belong to one proto class, gunners. They all have similar game model, similar abilities, that's why we use word "gunner" so often.
This is straight up wrong. Each of these "samy" classes have significant differences in the ways they deal with the same threats. Hero will dodge your saber due to faster movement speed and then quick-throw a nade to knock you down, for example, or he will snipe you from proj at close range if he fees lucky. SBD or wook can't do it, but they are immune to push almost always - all other classes need to walk until you will start your swing, just to not get knocked down. Deka can't move at all so it has to rely on its aim and discharge/quick deply. Clone will use blobs to try and kill you instantly, BH will use poison to whither you down, etc... All of which are completely different approaches to handling the same threats, which you should play against in different ways. How are these "the same class"?! And this is me just barely scratching the surface. The only reason for "gunner" word to exist is due to the fact they have higher "reach" than forceusers, and therefore more significant impact at long ranges. Which the jedi is well defended against by IDR only, not to mention other factors, like cover, regen, bullet travel time, etc.
And ratio of jedi/gunners in a team isn't related at all to this topic.
If people like to play saberists, they should be allowed to play them without any penalties.
It may be true it is not related, but it is an indirect indicator of some of the most important aspects of the game.
No, nonsensical is thinking that nerfing some class won't make a consequences for team balance.
Force of team is basically just sum of forces of all its members, anything else is just rhetorical exercise.
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Your statements about roles, support and that stuff are sounds like some politician bs to me.
Except one word: teamwork. And it is far from being a simple "rhetorical exercise". In fact, what you are doing right now is exactly a "rhetorical exercise", because you are not talking about game in terms of its mechanics and ways to use them, you are trying to tell your opponent "no, you are wrong" while barely backing it with any argumentation for your opinion in terms of gameplay mechanics. Your own words are so much closer to politics.
You can call it whatever you want, but it's still a nerf.
Yay, lets ignore the opponent's argument completely, without any basis. Again.
Now, in order for me not to be unfounded I will try to provide some additional details on the reasons for my opinion on the matter, all in terms of gameplay mechanics that actually exist in the game, and the possible ways to use them.
Interesting gameplay occurs when there are two or more players trying to achieve certain goals (like, killing opponent) by applying their skills to some in-game mechanic. The most important skill of a gunner lies in his aim, which is quite a hard thing to master, especially if you take the bullet travel time into account. Since jedi can't utilize aim to win, there need to be other ways to apply skill: game and map knowledge, positioning, timing, etc. All of these affect the gameplay of the gunner as well, but to lesser extent. For jedi, there must be ways to enchance the importance of the skilled usage of these other aspects to compensate for absense of aiming. This means, any changes should enchance the impact of a skilled usage of these mechanics against unskilled usage of the same aspects. Since the "win" for the jedi in any encounter involves getting close enough to hit the opponent, this means all of the mechanics should be centered around providing ways for jedi to use these aspects to close distance, and for gunner to have options to capitalize on incorrect unskilled usage of these mechanics.
If you remove sense it will drastically change the importance of game feel and map knowledge, as well as importance of watching your allies, communication between teammates. At the same time, jedi still has enough ways to retreat if he suddenly gets out of position: wide blaster block range, agility (running fast, jumping high), current incredibly high FP drains, IDR mechanic. It will not break open, the only thing that will be harder to do is to kill somebody when they are about to open a closed door - you can't really see them through it either, so you will need to react. I think removing such bullshit possibilities is good. You can still just check corners briefly instead of running blindly past them. At the same time it will help fixing the worst parts it brought to competetive MB2.
And as a light version of the change it may be simply reworked to be less wallhacky. The reason it should be kept in some form is that these are jedi after all, it would be weird if they didn't have any form of sensing threats with Force.
Just FYI, I voted "no" on the poll.
