Force Sense: FA-Only ?

[Stassin]

Just throwing in a poll to see what at least ppl lurking on forums think about it.

Ideas like making sense be just a warning sign on radar when an enemy is closeby, not giving precise locations, have been discussed recently, but ultimately just knowing about an enemy's presence is still a big advantage. And that's as little an advantage as it's going to get, really, that's pretty much as weak as we could make force sense.

So what about removing force sense from open mode completely ? Only FA classes would still freely have its powerful current version, and it's fine for jedi/sith to be uber-good-at-surviving/ambushing/teamworking/killing 1v1/pretty much everything apart from killing enemies at a distance characters in FA.

Not adding a 3rd possible response in the form of "keep it in open mode but a weaker version", that kind of opinion should go in the "No." option because ultimately it's keeping Sense in open mode.

 

[Starushka]

I really hope one day we will have a class limit and build game balance from there.

 

[Damn Polak]

saber spam is... if not "too strong" it's at least "too mindless," because saberists can get away with so much less teamplay

THIS THIS THIS

class limit

lol classtealing in open

imo sense won't be just removed; the cost could be greatly increased, maybe make the jedi dodge a separate ability

 

[Lessen]

DOTF gen would be way more dangerous for red team without Sense, as it would become much harder to know if a sniper is watching the door panels or not. And, as a Mando on the run from a Jedi in gen, you know that they know where you are, because of course they have Sense. But if they didn't have sense, you gain the ability to actually sneak away from them, which would be... a fun element. I'm definitely real intrigued by the idea of removing sense. The game would definitely shift more towards stealth. ...Plus people would probably play at higher gamma settings so they could spot snipers in the dark in gen.

 

[Apex]

Add a cool down between uses, maybe increase the force drain on each use. Either of these changes will promote conservative use and will require more skilled timing in order to use it effectively. Sense is a lot closer to being balanced than it ever was before, removing it entirely from open mode is an awful idea. Increase the force drain if they're shot while sensing, force sense level 1 can only be used with your saber off, etc. There are plenty of ways to balance sense without just saying "hey let's remove it"

 

[andrew]

i really have no idea why this is even considered

its such a silly and convoluted way of achieving the scattered goals listed in this topic such as:
~ making jedi/sith harder to play
~ balancing jedi/sith
~ lowering the number of jedi/sith in the game

it really feels like many of you havent even put a second of thought into what should actually be done, and are instead thinking along the lines of "what can we do to lower the number of jedi players?"

why is nerfing sense the route you are discussing for making jedi harder to play? for others, why do you think nerfing sense is the route that should be taken to lower their playerbase?

instead of nerfing jedi and sith, instead direct them further along the way into the support role, away from assassins. make them weaker without a gunner partner, but allow the jedi to greatly increase the effectiveness of their team. its mind blowing that people would even consider nerfing the support aspects of the class, when thats the area that is least abused by players in open and would have the least impact on making them hard to play/thinning out their numbers.

also, theres a lot of short sighted and stunted thinking in this topic. why are saberists half the team? why so many jedi when there are 2 jedi classes and 12 gunner? because its not jedi vs et vs sold vs hero etc. its jedi vs gunner. jedi are a melee alternative to gunners with a number of directed strengths and weaknesses. nerfing sense does literally nothing to lower the playerbase of jedi for players that are seeking out such an alternative.

 

[Lessen]

@andrew , do MY replies honestly sound like that? I disagree heavily with the notion that "jedi are a melee alternative to gunners with a number of directed strengths and weaknesses." I see Jedi as just one important part of a balanced breakfast. I mean team. But certainly not an "alternative" to any other class, because this isn't some kind of 1v1-balanced fighting game wherein all characters are more or less interchangeable. It's a team game where each player has a different important role. Or at least, I believe it is...?

My main interest in removing sense is that it would make the strategies used more interesting and stealth-oriented, and less linear. I suppose I'm for "making Jedi harder to play" but specifically in the sense that I want Jedi to not be generally exempt from having to work as a team.

Which... is kind of the gist of your second-to-last paragraph. But I disagree that removing Sense would push Jedi away from a supporting role. As I said, I figure Sense is a major element in Jedi being able to just roam around on their own. Without Sense, they'd become way more nervous about ambushes while on their own, and be more likely to stick with their team and be cautious. (I imagine.)

 

[andrew]

i cant help but feel thats incredibly short sighted. removing sense to prevent roaming assassin gameplay is about as silly as it gets

why would you not address the areas that actually cause those issues? also, you seem to think that jedi being simply ~near~ gunners is a supporting role, as opposed to them actually acting as support through the active use of their abilities, and quick decision making/thinking

 

[Lessen]

removing Sense doesn't prevent saberists from supporting gunners by:
- blocking/engaging enemy saberists
- forcing enemy gunners to walk or be pushed/pulled
- deflecting explosives
- being a mobile piece of cover

it just removes their ability to completely call out enemy positions for free, which turns scouting and enemy-spotting into more of a team effort, while allowing for way more Keikaku and Activation of Trap Cards.

and I consider sense 3 an "area" that "actually causes" "roaming assassin gameplay."

edit - one interesting strategic tidbit would be: no longer would everyone operate under the assumption that enemy saberists already know their whole position. No longer would a saberist be able to spot a large scale flank by running halfway down the hall in DOTF and sensing that nobody is around the corner at the end of the hall. There would be an increased capacity for fakeouts and distractions. keikaku
means
plan

 

[andrew]

i really don't see the point in discussing the issue if you consider sense to be the most appropriate target for a nerf to remove assassin gameplay at the cost of support gameplay

playing support jedi in scrim/match settings is incredibly satisfying and itd be really sad to see it that style of gameplay removed because people are worried about assassins

 

[Lessen]

being both vague and condescending is a good way to avoid having to actually explain your position, I guess? But what if whatever other point you're implying about assassin gameplay is something I already know? What if, man? You'll never know if you settle with being vague and condescending.

besides, I already said that I don't see it as reducing support gameplay. YES, it removes a big "SUPPORT" element, but in doing so it also creates a considerably greater need for better support, because traps are best dealt with as a team.

i'm not so much "worried about assassins" as i'm just kind of personally bothered by the fact that pub servers are too often dominated by facerolling solo saberists. I'm interested in private matches but have never actually played one and keep forgetting that they happen at all, so I'm basically just talking about balancing pubs in a way that promotes more teamplay.

anyway I do respect the tactical overview command kind of dealio that Sense affords, and it's real neat, and encourages teamplay in it's (obvious, major) way, all'm saying is I'm also Mighty Intrigued by the possibilities created by removing it. And I think it makes the overall strategy very "linear" since you can see the enemy's cards.

 

[T r i s t a n]

Jedi and Sith use Sense to guide and protect their team, and themselves. When used correctly it is an amazing asset. They are a melee based class, they need to be able to at times watch their back when being forced to fight off multiple enemies.
You are trying to remove a fundamental ability all canon force users have.

My god...

 

[Lessen]

ok actually, @swagmaster 's middle ground of restricting Sense to Def 0 force users (lords. whores. whatever.) could be a good... middle ground. Gives the same tactical radar role, but at least it makes the radar/commander is a big super vulnerable target, which would make Sense roamer assassins generally less viable, and encourage targeting def0 guys to "blind" the enemy. And it legitimizes def0 instead of that being entirely a troll strategy.

(of course, repulse ambushes would, if anything, become considerably more prevalent with this change. I don't mind.)

in my opinion, though, it wouldn't go far enough in limiting sense to make it interesting. Early in the round, Sensors would still probably get a good look at the enemy position and report on it, so really nutty mixup strategies would still be seen through.

So maybe Sense would need an additional nerf. Something that lets you keep the "radar" role but makes you have to work for it a bit. First thing that springs to mind is: you can only Sense while meditating, and the radius starts out small but expands (with some kind of visual indicator) over time. Meaning you can't insta-scan a huge area and you HAVE to make yourself vulnerable to scan at all, but you still end up with full radar capabilities.

leading a battle while meditating would also give it kind of a cool "battle meditation" (KOTOR) vibe

 

[Vongs]

I agree with Tristan, sense is one of the pillar of teamplay in MBII as well as an almost necessary tool to stay alive.

Even if the saberists don't communicate the enemy's location directly, they can still prevent ambushes and force campers to retreat by attacking them or at least going in defensive mode, informing their teamates that something is up. They futher provide feedback on how the round is going, most notably flanking. The result in futher nerfing sense in my opinion would be that the rythm of MBII would be much slower, you have to very carefully inspect every room, make sure there's not going to be a sniper hiding waiting for you to have your back turned or a hanging saberist waiting to flank. Snipers (heroes-bh-mandos) would benefit from this tremendously due to their firepower (especially the more hardcore snipers like heroes and bh, which, in my opinion, are already too much of a pain in the ass for saberists with the steroid fueled heroes that can outrun Usain Bolt, the BH that straight up stop your sense regen forcing you to retreat, and of course their portable Death star that is P3). It would especially benefit the defenders as they get much more of an advantage as they know where the enemy will be coming from and can very easily set up ambushes (not thinking just of snipers but of rockets as well).

On an individual level saberists almost completely lose their ability to wander off by themselves (whether it's positive or negative obviously depends of who you're asking but at least it reduces the possibilities of playing as a saberist gameplay wise). Sense allows saberists to close the distance, something they absolutely imo need when going on their own or charging in a new room when they're backed up by their team.

Teamplay so far imo is based on (at least most of the time), saberists acting as wall, preventing the enemy from advancing while their gunners force the enemy to retreat. Removing sense would force saberists to check every angle to make sure they don't get jumped by a sniper at close range with their shotgun, I mean sniper rifles, a wook that can knock them down or kill them within a sec or a SBD knocking them down and blasting them.

And I didn't state what is to me the most obvious change but it's the fact that saberists become almost inaccessible for new players. I mean MBII by default is tough for saberists to learn the game, and with 1.4 having all those nerfs and flinch for absolutely every gun, I can only imagine that only the most hardcore bdsm practitioners would try to learn how to play as a saberist now. Removing sense would essentially be making them blind in my opinion: they don't know where the hiding spots are on every map, where the ambush spots are and so on.

Removing sense would very effectively imo almost completely remove saberists from MBII overtime. I really don't get why you'd want to make saberists harder to play, most saberists that I see tend to have a K/D below 1, only the experienced ones get one above 1 and it rarely goes beyong 1.5-2 (apart from the few master saberists we have).

And I don't truly see how you could make sense weaker. Sense 1 costs 20, prevents regen of FPs for about 2 secs (because Sense 1 only lasts that long) and only updates your minimap at short-medium range. It's not really something you use in combat except if you're protecting your teamates during a firefight. Definitely not something you use in 1vs1 against gunners either. Sense 2 costs the same I believe but highlights the enemies, telling you their Z coordinate and giving you a hint at what class they're using and sense 2 lasts longer. Sense 3 lasts a really long time and work at longe range but against blocks your force regen (apart from when you're meditating, which I think is a smart idea). Sense 3 is really more for teamplayers, to inform your team of where enemies are, where they are going. Now that's in theory because in practice sense messes up a lot imo, a LOT of doors and walls block sense.

I feel nerfing/removing sense wouldn't just make saberists far weaker but also slower the pace of the game as well as advantaging the defending side and finally buffing snipers (which, quite frankly, I could really do without given how they currently are).

Now of course this is a very biased opinion, since I mostly play saberist.

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

level 3 remains the same, level 2 is just a blob through walls, level 1 is radar but all players show up as white - if im stuck in openjk, u lot should suffer as well.

 

[Szunti]

Another possibility is to sense only force users. Wasn't something about Luke being worried that if he stays with the group he gives away their location to Vader?

Something like:

• level 1: can sense force users on the map only while they use the force (with some fading time, so push pull would appear for a little time)
  Could be useful to time your attacks. Eg. You want to attack on main and alternative route simultaneously. You lead the main attack, so you wait until force use on the alternate (either your jedi mate or a sith trying to defend) before charging.
  Or to sense the ones hanging on walls.
  
• level 2: can sense force users all the time on the map, and through walls while they use the force
  
• level 3: can sense force users through walls

 

[Liniyka_xddd]

You mean Force Whore only? Although I don't like that term and do want it to be replaced, "force-user" reads as a reference to Jedi/Sith in general, to me.

What about "Force Lord"

"Force Overlord Master General"

 

[Hexodious]

For me I like the idea of force sense as FA only (in its current form).

We should not have on-demand locational tools available. There should be ways to trick/dodge or avoid detection in all cases. I would have the current sense used in FA (a lot of classes are actually designed to have built in wallhacks). For Open I'd re-design sense to be a passive aura of awareness that a Jedi posses.

I assume everyone has played COD4, when someone shoots they momentarily flash up on the Radar, if you aren't doing anything threatening you are all clear:

Rank 0 - Detects Enemies on the Radar for 1.5-2.0s if they are Primary Firing/Alt Firing(including scoped/holding a grenade)/Using the Force(including mt)/Using a Class Special.

This solves gameplay issues of a built in wall-hack while still giving Jedi that special awareness of their surroundings, most notibably active danger. This also removes control over the ability from the Jedi and instead places this control in the other players. As a gunner I would know as long as I don't use any abilities I can effectively re-position myself and avoid detection, setup an ambush or flank. If I want to be truely deceptive I could shoot then move so that the Jedi senses me in the wrong place. There is a lot of play/counter play available with a simple setup like this.

Of course I'd also make it so that Droid classes with advanced Radar capabilities also use this method.

 

[Lessen]

ooh that's neat. Keeps the whole "I sense danger!!" idea, since you'd be able to detect scoping, or detect someone priming a grenade. My one observation is that it would be kind of a pain in the ass to have to glance up at the radar during a combat situation, so you should uhh, add a slider for the minimapalpha cvar (that makes the full-size map overlay translucent) so everyone has easy access to huge translucent full map overlays and the easier radar awareness that provides.

It would also nerf Clones/ARCs a little since every stamina sprint would completely show their position...

Droids having the exact same capability doesn't make a ton of sense as far as "realism," how would they detect someone scoping? Plus, maaaaybe the SBD's full-radar-when-in-recharge-mode would still be balanced out by how slow SBD is and how vulnerable it is when using radar. If it walks near a trap spot and then switches on its radar, that gives the trappers a free couple seconds to pop out suddenly and blast it.

 

[Bombad General]

I like sense because of the teamplay element. I don't understand the recent change to Sense 3, with no cost while meditating. All force users do now is retreat for a second, meditate/activate, and they are off and running again with no force cost. This change needs to be reverted.

Maybe change Sense 2 and 3 to blink periodically similar to tracking dart or Advanced Logic. The blink interval could then be adjusted for balance.

 

[Tempest]

ITT: Lots of people that missed the "Not adding a 3rd possible response in the form of "keep it in open mode but a weaker version", that kind of opinion should go in the "No." option because ultimately it's keeping Sense in open mode."

Probably would have been better to word it as "Move current Sense to FA and have a reworked version for Open".