Feedback/opinions on current Gunner VS Jedi gameplay?

[Tylenol]

Was considering making a longer post but leaving the discussion as open as possible would probably be a better move.

FP drains seem to be way off to me, while observing/fighting Saberists and playing as one. I've seen Jedi live through being pummeled by 3 troops at once and have personally managed to get out of situations where I made so many mistakes that I should have died but didn't.

Frag and Conc lost their FP Drains on hit. Why? If general FP drains had been sorted out I wouldn't mind, but they're really not and it's not like nades have been some dangerous weapon against Jedi/Sith. Any knockdowns from them are instantly resolved with a jump or crouch recovery, so there's basically no danger in being hit unless you have 3+ guys training their aim at you.

Thoughts on Push? I've seen a fair bit about 'push spam' and curious about your experiences. Feel like it could do with some rounding off, just to knock down its effectiveness like increasing FP cost when using it mid air maybe. Just something that would make it a tad more closer to its intended uses.

 

[Blazer]

1. FP drains seem to be way off to me, while observing/fighting Saberists and playing as one. I've seen Jedi live through being pummeled by 3 troops at once and have personally managed to get out of situations where I made so many mistakes that I should have died but didn't.

2. Frag and Conc grenades.... crouch/spacebar recovery... so there's basically no danger in being hit unless you have 3+ guys training their aim at you.

3.Thoughts on Push? I've seen a fair bit about 'push spam' and curious about your experiences. Feel like it could do with some rounding off, just to knock down its effectiveness like increasing FP cost when using it mid air maybe. Just something that would make it a tad more closer to its intended uses.

Good points. I can agree on these completely.

1. I personally hate(d) being a gunner in this patch because it seems like I could literally put a full E-11 clip into a jedi just standing and blocking, and he'd still have 30ish fp left. I never had more than 10 times in the 30+ hours I put into this patch where I actually killed a jedi that RAN out of fp from me just shooting it. The only times I did is when 3 other guys were barraging him with everything they had.

2. Connected to the first point, the only ways I ever killed jedi or sith was either melee+shoot combo, kata meleeing them, or like you said, the grenades. But even the grenades had hardly any use because the cooldown to switch back to your weapon you had literally a max of 3 shots you could get in if the jedi was using quick-getup.

My biggest problem with gunner v jedi, is that gunner requires 3x as much of skill, and it's STILL extremely punishing toward the gunner. I saw in another thread where someone brought up the thing where "Jedi can go literally into a group of three gunners, strafe a bit, tank 100 shots, and still throw a few saber swings, kill 1-2 or even all of them, and still get away either unharmed, or with a few shots into his chest with 40-60 hp."
And adding on to the above, my biggest issue is that if a Jedi or Sith is in trouble, they can just hop+strafe away into a corner and regen ALL of the gunners work down to nothing.
Oh? You shot me until I got 20 fp? No worries, let me just hop around the corner, where you can't charge me because I'll come out the corner and push/slash you, and let me go from 20-100fp in just a few seconds.

As a gunner, it's either you kill the damn jedi, or you're dead in 1 slash. No mistakes, No flinch, nothing. You mess up once? It's over. The Jedi messes up 4 times in a row? Slap on the wrist and still has 20-30 hp.


3. Lastly, I don't really mind push that much, in fact I like when Jedi spam push because it makes my fp-draining job easier.
But I hate the range of push. It's frustrating when a jedi pushes you from like 30 feet away and proceeds to slash you before you even stand up. And for what? 20 fp that he can just hide and regenerate?
I wish pushes range was nerfed by just a few meters or at least made you AIM at you're opponent, for gods sake you can look at the roof and push and still knockdown the whole enemy team.

People are always like "THEN JUST WALK PUSH IS EZ"
Uh, no I'm not walking when there's a jedi with 80 fp, and 100 hp pushing me and If I manage to miss one shot he instantly kills me, but if I hit him 3 times in a row he's still got 10-40 hp for some bullshit reason. I can walk time to time just to simply counter push, but how do I decide between walking slowly while a jedi is about to slash my intestines, or run and get pushed because It's required and there was no way of telling?

 

[SomeGuy]

I really dislike it at the moment. It's much too skewed towards the Jedi. It just isn't punishing enough when mistakes are made.

Changes I'd like to see are FP drain on damage brought back, swingblock disabled versus blasters, flinch removed, and knockback on blaster hit again. The nerfs to darts and grenades reversed would be nice too.

Push is a whole other monster considering it is the single most versatile, powerful, and easiest to use ability in the game. I'd love to see some changes to it to make it actually take skill and thought but that would take a complete overhaul of the power.

Addition here: I'm not against the Jedi class but rather that pretty much every Jedi uses practically the same build, centered around Push 3. I would love to see buffs or incentives for Force only or Saber only builds.

 

[Tempest]

I really dislike it at the moment. It's much too skewed towards the Jedi. It just isn't punishing enough when mistakes are made.

A lot of what you suggested below was tried in some form in the gunner open betas a ways back and most of what was done was met with positive feedback. There's been more discussions internally about what exactly we want to take/derive from that.

Changes I'd like to see are FP drain on damage brought back

Pretty sure this is still a thing so I'm not sure what you mean.

swingblock disabled versus blasters

This is something I've been looking at in some rework ideas for the general way that saberists work in open mode.

flinch removed, and knockback on blaster hit again.

These are both heavily agreed on and should be what gets pushed through in the next set of adjustments for saber v gunner.

The nerfs to darts and grenades reversed would be nice too.

Heavily disagree. Darts take about the same amount as effort as Push does and it's unavoidable damage. I've been doing some brainstorming on how to make it less obnoxious while still accomplishing its goal (help vs Jedi spam, prevent Jedi from being stationary objects, help create openings against them). Grenades draining FP was mostly a leftover from long ago when Jedi could literally hold mouse1 and lawnmower gunners. Just a prelude to other changes to make things more fair for both sides.

Push is a whole other monster considering it is the single most versatile, powerful, and easiest to use ability in the game. I'd love to see some changes to it to make it actually take skill and thought but that would take a complete overhaul of the power.

Its power level (aside from being instant) is actually (mostly) fair. The main issue is that there's no trade-offs to getting that level of power and it's able to be used en-mass. Changing that is, again, one of the things I've tried examining heavily with possible changes to saberists in open mode.

Addition here: I'm not against the Jedi class but rather that pretty much every Jedi uses practically the same build, centered around Push 3. I would love to see buffs or incentives for Force only or Saber only builds.

 

[FrenzY]

We have a list in drains per weapon if you’d like to take a peak. A 10% increase on p1/2, e11, arc weapons and a few others would be justified and a good start imo

 

[Blazer]

I really dislike it at the moment. It's much too skewed towards the Jedi. It just isn't punishing enough when mistakes are made.

You make some good points, but this is my deepest concern. As I've said before, Jedi can make at LEAST 3 mistakes before taking in consideration of actually dying. Unless you're dealing with a really good pistol3 player, saberists have too many mistakes to be mostly unpunished. The only reason i EVER ran gunner, was to use pistol3, simply because It was the only weapon I could pretty much 2-shot a saberist with, and not have to worry about dealing like 16 damage with an e-11, like 15 times.
Either he slices me, or I p3 him in the face, duel over.

 

[Torlo50]

You make some good points, but this is my deepest concern. As I've said before, Jedi can make at LEAST 3 mistakes before taking in consideration of actually dying. Unless you're dealing with a really good pistol3 player, saberists have too many mistakes to be mostly unpunished. The only reason i EVER ran gunner, was to use pistol3, simply because It was the only weapon I could pretty much 2-shot a saberist with, and not have to worry about dealing like 16 damage with an e-11, like 15 times.
Either he slices me, or I p3 him in the face, duel over.

@Tempest @Stassin This is why I mentioned I am personally in favor of ripping off passive jedi/sith damage reduction. At least if they have any saber style picked. They are many powers and abilities, with little skill needed to use them vs. gunners, compared to the gunner's need to aim at momentum-less targets. While I think jedi/sith's sheer versatility will still make them the best class in the game, team's would be far more varied, when they make a mistake, miss a flanker even though they have the capability to literally see through walls, then they should pay for that. Most Jedi/Sith use Sense 3 as a crutch, not listening to audio cues and such-like. (Actually, just a thought on the side, what if sense 3 actually enhanced audio of other targets, depending on which way you were facing. Could hear foosteps from things farther away? Hearing is, after all, a sense. Random idea though.) Even when they do get shot in the back, they survive the ambush almost every time (snipers being the exception). This entire thread, so far at least, show cases my point(s) I talked about in the more closed area. I know you both have your opinion's on how dmg reduct should be implemented. I stand by mine.

 

[SomeGuy]

You make some good points, but this is my deepest concern. As I've said before, Jedi can make at LEAST 3 mistakes before taking in consideration of actually dying. Unless you're dealing with a really good pistol3 player, saberists have too many mistakes to be mostly unpunished. The only reason i EVER ran gunner, was to use pistol3, simply because It was the only weapon I could pretty much 2-shot a saberist with, and not have to worry about dealing like 16 damage with an e-11, like 15 times.
Either he slices me, or I p3 him in the face, duel over.

And the only reason P3 works so well is because it, too, needs fixing. But that's for another thread lol.

Unrelated to Blazer, but I had a thought from this thread. What if Jedi/Sith took different FP damage from deflecting shots based on where they hit their defense? Such as the higher the degree off center it deflects, the more FP it takes. That would make being outnumbered and flanked much deadlier and punishing.

 

[Tylenol]

What if Jedi/Sith took different FP damage from deflecting shots based on where they hit their defense?

I believe that would just become an needlessly complex mechanic. It's a fine idea, but it wouldn't exactly give any more depth to gameplay and would be a nightmare explaining it to new players

 

[Liniyka_xddd]

And the only reason P3 works so well is because it, too, needs fixing. But that's for another thread lol.

Unrelated to Blazer, but I had a thought from this thread. What if Jedi/Sith took different FP damage from deflecting shots based on where they hit their defense? Such as the higher the degree off center it deflects, the more FP it takes. That would make being outnumbered and flanked much deadlier and punishing.

Devs tried that in one of the betas and it was fucking terrible

 

[Stassin]

@Tempest @Stassin This is why I mentioned I am personally in favor of ripping off passive jedi/sith damage reduction. At least if they have any saber style picked. They are many powers and abilities, with little skill needed to use them vs. gunners, compared to the gunner's need to aim at momentum-less targets. While I think jedi/sith's sheer versatility will still make them the best class in the game, team's would be far more varied, when they make a mistake, miss a flanker even though they have the capability to literally see through walls, then they should pay for that. Most Jedi/Sith use Sense 3 as a crutch, not listening to audio cues and such-like. (Actually, just a thought on the side, what if sense 3 actually enhanced audio of other targets, depending on which way you were facing. Could hear foosteps from things farther away? Hearing is, after all, a sense. Random idea though.) Even when they do get shot in the back, they survive the ambush almost every time (snipers being the exception). This entire thread, so far at least, show cases my point(s) I talked about in the more closed area. I know you both have your opinion's on how dmg reduct should be implemented. I stand by mine.

Jed/sith need 1.25x FP drain increase, removed passive dmg reduction (but not removed dmg reduction when blocking), flinch replaced with doubled knockback for all gunshots with dmg < 30 (capped at 60 for shots between 30 and 60 dmg, unchanged for higher dmg shots). Potentially along with some proper saber vs gun style perks.

 

[Crusader]

P3 is worthless vs Jedi/Sith.

Edit: I will say very bad versus Jedi/Sith in case I gave the impression it is not doable.

 

[Torlo50]

P3 is worthless vs Jedi/Sith.

Edit: I will say very bad versus Jedi/Sith in case I gave the impression it is not doable.

P-3's dmg, in combination with BH/Hero class abilities is a huge advantage over other guns fighting Saberists.

 

[Gargos]

I never ger this diss with e11 vs saber. If I srsly wanna rape jedi, I take a soldier. E11 and a conc is my fav combo. People keep saying that as a gunner youre not allowed to make mistakes but as sold you get to have at least two. And one conc nade becomes three. Also I am still wondering why 90 percent of e11 users still use secondary fire instead of primary against a saberist. Primary eats more force, youre more focused on aiming with lower rof, and it even does more dmg per shot.

 

[Tylenol]

People keep saying that as a gunner youre not allowed to make mistakes but as sold you get to have at least two. And one conc nade becomes three.

Oh three mistakes. How very generous considering the fact that Jedi still get at least 5.

Also I am still wondering why 90 percent of e11 users still use secondary fire instead of primary against a saberist. Primary eats more force, youre more focused on aiming with lower rof, and it even does more dmg per shot.

I use primary often as well however one of the patches (can't remember which one) rounded up sec. damage up to be a lot closer to primary making the difference between them about 2 points and secondary is still more preferable to use in close combat with Jedi just due to the high RoF. FP drain is simply too low this patch and as a Jedi main you should have probably noticed that

 

[MaceMadunusus]

Also I am still wondering why 90 percent of e11 users still use secondary fire instead of primary against a saberist. Primary eats more force, youre more focused on aiming with lower rof, and it even does more dmg per shot.

This is actually a pretty big misconception. Unless you really cannot aim with secondary at longer ranges due to bloom if not walking, or projectile speed reduction. Secondary WILL drain slightly faster. It requires more shots to do so yes, but the fire rate compensates enough to make it faster than primary in terms of time. About 0.8-2 seconds faster depending on your accuracy, blocking status, and distance distance. Though this is based on numbers before the most recent FP changes, but I don't believe those changed this aspect.

If you're walking and can maintain a consistent accuracy then secondary wins.

 

[Blazer]

I never ger this diss with e11 vs saber.

Because it sucks, and the damage output sucks. You're only hope is to drain their fp to 0, because jedi/sith can get shot by an e-11 like... what? 9 times? before they die?

If I srsly wanna rape jedi, I take a soldier. E11 and a conc is my fav combo. People keep saying that as a gunner youre not allowed to make mistakes but as sold you get to have at least two.

Not everyone wants to play soldier. Also, conc grenades suck. They are predictable, and do minimal damage, and all the jedi has to do it quick get-up to counter it. \
Also you're talking like you can kill a Jedi IF you specifically targeted him with all 3 lives. This isn't reliable, and doesn't make sense.

People keep saying that as a gunner youre not allowed to make mistakes but as sold you get to have at least two.

Great. One class grants you three chances to kill a jedi, but even with all those chances consider what @Tylenol says:

Oh three mistakes. How very generous considering the fact that Jedi still get at least 5.

Pistol3 is the only reliable way to kill a jedi, and that's if you're really good with it. Grenades suck and all they have to do is spacebar to get up.

 

[Blazer]

P3 is worthless vs Jedi/Sith.

And where do you base that conclusion off of?
That e-11's damage isn't so minimal and low that it can't kill a womp rat in 3 shots?
That the A-250's burst isn't easily avoidable and really bad due to reload time?
Or what?
Because from the years i've played, the pistol was my go-to move to take out a pesky saberist who doesn't die. Especially in this patch, where pistol3 two shots a saberist, which only grants the saberist 2-3 mistakes, unlike the e-11 which grants the saberist at least 4-5.

In this patch, I specifically avoid going against pistol3 as a saberist, because I know I could swing at 4-5 E-11 users before I died, instead of getting pounded by a one guy good with p3.

 

[Liniyka_xddd]

I haven't played in a while, but trust me, a sold with a conc is probably one of the safest and most reliable ways of killing a saberist. If your conc game is good and your aim on point, you don't even need extra lives to take them down.

The real problem solds face is the fact that they get demolished by other gunner classes due to sold's incredibly shitty movespeed, but that's a whole another topic....

 

[Blazer]

I haven't played in a while, but trust me, a sold with a conc is probably one of the safest and most reliable ways of killing a saberist. If your conc game is good and your aim on point, you don't even need extra lives to take them down.

The real problem solds face is the fact that they get demolished by other gunner classes due to sold's incredibly shitty movespeed, but that's a whole another topic....

I've played conc soldier many times, and all I've gotten out of it was 10-20 damage if I was lucky because the jedi either just jumps and dodges it or pushes it away or just quick get-ups. Any good jedi makes conc grenades absolutely useless.
Am I missing something here?