Feedback/opinions on current Gunner VS Jedi gameplay?

Discussion in 'Feedback & Gameplay' started by Tylenol, Sep 27, 2018.

  1. Crusader

    Crusader

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    Damage isn't what kills Jedi/Sith.

    Interrupting swing-block is what kills Jedi/Sith.

    P3 is the least comfortable gun to use vs Jedi/Sith. If you miss a shot, or they weave, you are going to die. The rate of fire very nearly matches swing-blocking a yellow combo. If you interrupt one slash with P3, the subsequent yellow swing will probably take you. In the worst-case scenario you will be cancelling each other out until one makes a mistake. It is a lot harder to miss with a lightsaber than a gun.

    For a gun with a low rate of fire and high base damage, the FP drain isn't anything spectacular. If you shoot a Jedi/Sith unaware that they have deflect, you will probably do a trivial amount of FP damage, whilst taking a huge chunk of your own health.

    Balancing saber versus gun really lies at the intersection between a class's mobility/Force immunity and the guns it is allowed to select from.

    If I am to consider the gun in isolation, then yes, against a gunner P3 is exceptional, but against a saber it is inadequate.
     
  2. Liniyka_xddd

    Liniyka_xddd EU Official Server Admin

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    Saberists often get cocky and stand in front of everyone, looking for an opportunity. So all it takes is for you to conc them, and if you have even a single teammate with you, you should be able to kill the saberist.

    If you don't have a friendly with you, it's still good. A direct hit deals a lot of damage, so if they do roll getup you should be able to just kill them straight away. If they do the quick getup, you should still be able to land 1 primary shot during the vulnerability window. After that, everything depends on your skill with E11.

    You should also know when to conc. Ideally you should conc saberists who are distracted by your teammates, or are preoccupied with something else. These are the easiest targets by far.
    Now, if they see you and know you want to conc them, it's better to fake them out - start the fuse to bait them into pushing and switch to E11 at the last moment. It's not gonna work every time and you have to be very unpredictable, but it's still a good option.

    1 more thing - sometimes you can use loud sounds or area portals to mask the sound of your conc primer. Keep that in mind.
     
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  3. FRANK LAMPART

    FRANK LAMPART

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    Disagree. The increased velocity speed change has made P3 very strong vs saberists. I always see P3 users managing to land their shots at medium to close range despite the saberist strafing around and more often than not, they'll run out of fp when they get to you. But if you're talking gunner vs Jedi in general, then you can always switch weapon? If you feel P3 is not good against Jedi.
     
  4. Liniyka_xddd

    Liniyka_xddd EU Official Server Admin

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    Here are a few conc examples at 0:20 and 5:00, it's me playing sold. Not the best ones of course, but still can be used for reference. Conc's biggest strength is its psychological effect, rather than the direct knockdown effect.
     
  5. foggy

    foggy

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    take e-11 lvl 1, 2 cocns, combat training for extra sick melee rektage and absolutely every jedi will hate you
    and you need zero skill for throwing concs, just remmeber timing and throw them into a closest moving target. Team up with a SBD for e x t r e e me r e k t e l
     
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  6. Gargos

    Gargos EU Official Server Admin

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    @Tylenol
    You dont get just 3 mistakes. Everytime you get shot and take dmg and survive is a mistake. Even 1 hp soldier is dangerous especially if this sold is defending. Pop up and couple blasts do wonders. Every time jedi makes a mistake it loses hp. Of course low hp jedi is also dangerous, low hp jedi are also easy to take down. 1-2melee punches is faster than a yellow swing and youll usually get in even more if the jedi isnt prepared. There are so many ways to trick a jedi.

    @MaceMadunusus
    Still for some reason I am still way more scared of primary fire users. Why is this? Is it because pro ppl still use primary thus they hit more than ”noobs” with secondary but if the pro players used secondary, would they do even better? Maybe, but honestly I dont think that would be the case. I think this is because you actually focus on aiming and click the primary instead of holding the button down. This means you wont click until you have taken aim. With secondary you hold the button constantly while taking aim. This means youll be less likely to hit if the jedi is strafing because the moment your gun fires is unlikely matching your aim. You dont have this problem with primary shot. This of course doesnt affect clone rifle 3 where the rof is so ridiculously high that none of that matters anymore.

    @Blazer
    It doesnt take too many shots to drain a running jedi out of fp with primary. Even p1 now makes enough fp dmg for me to care to try to dodge it. If jedi walks then by all means spam secondary for even more fp dmg.

    About conc nades, Lini quite well explained it. The scariest nade users are those who can make you doubt if they use the nade or not. It is the psychological part of this game that makes everything so much more fun. I like to take this a notch further and go 2 nades and t21 lvl1. It is total badass jedi killer once you get the hang of it. It is only bad when youre being surrounded but even then you are able to do smth if you happen to still have both nades.

    About soldier
    I do understand that a reb soldier is usually not as strong as imp sold. There are scarier classes to deal with as reb sold (gg if you meet a deka) compared to as imp sold. + imp sold is usually on defense which soldier excels at compared to attacking. In this sense it is easier to be a class that works well against gunners and saberists as imp compared to as reb at least imo
     
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  7. Jeob

    Jeob

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    As a player who plays everything, or I could say I "mained" every class for at least 3-6 months already, here's my opinion on current gunner vs jedi.
    My general feelings about playing jedi: comfortable, can be successful while being totally brainless and without making any effort
    My general feelings about playing gunner: requires you to make effort (mostly because of aiming), takes much more discipline and thought to succeed

    However the matchup is as close to being balanced as it can be imo. 2 entirely different classes will never be "balanced". Jedi has regenerating (infinite) resources, meanwhile gunners don't, jedi is melee class, gunners are mainly range class. So with two entirely different skill-set and playstyle just what can you call balance? If both side can win with 50% chance? Well I don't know about the exact chances, but you can win on both sides easily, mainly because a big part of the fight is the rock-paper-scissor like mind game of run/walk vs push/swing, so if you guess well you are likely to win both as a jedi and a gunner. And I think the issue of this thread is that gunners aren't guaranteed to win if the jedi makes a bad push, but if the jedi makes a good push, he's almost guaranteed to win.
    That's why I say gunner needs to make effort, cause it's not enough to withstand a push with walk, you need to make it count with good shooting and even then you have to follow up well to secure your win, and sometimes you have to accept that you can't chase down the jedi, that depends on many factors, the most important thing is where the fight takes place. Generally multi-level areas favor jedi heavily, I mean where the jedi can use 10-40 fp to jump up to a place where the gunner can't follow and open areas with 0 cover favor gunners (there's no corner or cover which the jedi can use to regen fp even for a second).

    Now the fight can go thousands of ways and I could get lost in many details, but I'd like to focus on the most crucial thing, aiming. From my experience a big factor how the matchup will feel to you is how much the gunner can hit the jedi/sith. Basically if the gunner's not hitting the jedi then ye the jedi will be able to make 2-3 bad swings, a bad push but then still win the fight. However when the gunner has a good hit rate, then it can often feel like the jedi can't do anything. He has a death timer on his head, if he makes a swing or push, he'll just die sooner, the only option is to retreat (while he can) and wait for a better opportunity (in lets say a multiple vs multiple situation). So my statistical experience is that if your aim is on point, then 1-2 bad push/swing is enough to get the kill. Getting a good aim sucks though, especially to do so consistently in this game. My personal experience is that sometimes I can get a headache and my hitrate is still poor, but sometimes I'm not even trying and I'm hitting almost everything. For example in my best moments I kill a jedi with only p1 by flinching 4 swings in a row, but sometimes I won't even flinch the 1st swing.

    Now you don't need to be an aimgod to succeed and land all your shots. Aiming at the right time can be enough to win. To illustrate, imagine these 2 scenarios, both of them happen like every day in the game.
    Scenario 1
    Jedi is at mid-long range closing in on you. You're shooting pretty well (let's say with e-11), by the time the jedi reaches you, he's down to 40-50 fp, but when he makes the swing, you fail to shoot well in that moment and lose.
    Scenario 2
    Same situation but you're shooting terribly, jedi gets in swing range with 90-100 fp. He makes the swing and in that moment you shoot him perfectly in the head with a few shots and win.

    Discipline: as a gunner it will happen with you in almost every round, that a jedi reaches swing range on you. At this point it's very easy to get confused/mentally totally shut down (and thus your aim reduces to 0) while you're deciding between holding walk or trying to run cause you don't know whether the jedi will do a yolo push or a swing, and more importantly WHEN he will do it. To combat this doubt, you need discipline and mental composure to keep your aim up while you decide whether you're gonna run or not. This situation from a jedi perspective is much more relaxed, depending on how many FP you managed to close the distance with. If I'm practically at full FP then I can just wait for a good opportunity, feel out the movement pattern of the gunner, most weapons can't drain FP that quickly and also assuming I managed to close the distance with full FP, the gunner is most likely unable to drain me, so I can just wait until they run out of ammo. Many gunner just give up and go for a melee fly kick, which is easy to deal with too (in this case, you only need to hurry if there are other enemies you have to worry about). If I'm at 30-60 FP and the gunner keeps firing at me quite well then I actually feel like I'm forced to take action, but it's still a relaxed situation, depending on the area, it may still be very easy to retreat.

    "Brainless" jedi: So as a jedi you can often win with a strategy that you set your mind on before the battle. For example when you reach a certain distance, you're gonna do a push cause the gunner might just start running. If it pays off, you won without thinking or putting in any effort. Other popular approaches: jump swing, jump push, double pull, pull+swing, swing spam, and keep mixing up these options round after round depending on the result. These can all work and require way less mental effort to do than aiming in this game. Now you can decide on pushing based on the movement of the gunner, but you don't have to, and you risk getting baited by the gunner.
    I believe the more brainless you can play as a jedi the better your chances. If you're too rational you can be read like a book and a good gunner has easier time aiming at you.

    Jedi is also comfortable, cause you don't have to worry about things that you should worry as a gunner. Entering a door with 0 information. Let's say you find 3 gunners and a jedi in push range. This sucks if you're a gunner, you can immediately die with push+shots, or you might manage to escape but that's not very likely. As a sith you can flee easily, you eat some shots which only took some fp, which regens back. Not to mention, as jedi you can scout the next room/corridor with sense, which again makes the game much easier. So gunner has to take precaution and think more about trivial actions like opening a door or going around a corner than a jedi has to.

    Choosing the setting/place of a fight: I've said a few things about this earlier, but now I'll focus a little more on it, as it's also really important and impacts the matchup greatly. Some examples. As jedi, having a cover next to you is very useful, like a box. You throw out a push, then hide behind the box, this way only prefires can damage you. Very cheap, very effective, requires good effort from the gunner to deal with it. As gunner, you should try to position yourself before the engagement so that the jedi won't be able to have advantages like this (if possible). Other thing to look out for is try not to have a wall behind you (you have to look out for this even during the fight, as it depends on the jedi's position too), it reduces your evasive options and also you won't gain any distance from a bad push. In my experience if both players are ignorant to factors like this, then usually the fight will go down in a place, where the jedi has some kind of advantage. Also I have to add, that gunners often can't escape a disadvantageous situation which jedi can and have to accept to fight in it, but even a slight difference in position in a room can have a big impact.

    Distraction: making distractions is also much easier to do as jedi, you can very easily troll clueless enemies and feed them to your teammates. An example I have in my mind: I jumped over the enemies in dotf main/hangar and took 4 jedi for a tour in the hangar. They blindly followed me and they didn't care that by following me their back ended up being exposed to my sniper teammates. So I saw my snipers shoot them down from the main/hangar door one by one. What's really funny is that even after 2 died the remaining 2 still followed me. Btw I also paid attention to move in a straight line without changing directions, so they followed me with a straight line too which easy to aim at. Point is, pulling shit like this is very easy with jedi/sith (effortless, doesn't require much thought) and if you try to do similiar distraction with gunners, there's a good chance you're gonna get raped by the distracted opponents even if your team benefits from your distraction unless you planned it out really well.

    Overall it's a tough topic, I see complaints from both sides in game, and I can often sympathize with both sides' complaints to a degree as I play evertyhing. But on the forums there are always exaggerated complaints. I remember a few years back there were complaints on the forums that gunners "only have to spam shots". And now there are some exaggerated complaints too, like a knock down doesn't matter on jedi, cause they can just quick rise (sorry if I didn't quote it properly).
    I feel like jedi have easier time, but if the gunner puts in the work and you can't bullshit him with random push/pulls, then jedi feels very limited and useless. I wouldn't change much about the current system, after 1.4 I'm pretty satisfied with 1.5. I really disliked 1.4's hold block forever jedi, in 1.5 it became better.
    The thing is that many gunners are clueless about fightning jedi, and those who can deal with jedi well are often obstructed by their clueless teammates (block their fireline, block their movement etc.), so you can pretty much always have an easy time with jedi if you're an experienced player. I think of jedi almost the same way as I think about deka. Very good to bully a weak team, but can't do anything to a good team on it's own because of it's regenerating resources which tries to be "balanced" for both 1v1 and 1vMultiple.
    Also in win team it's very easy to use jedi, if you have problem just retreat/hold block for a few seconds, you'll be backed up by your teammates. However as a gunner in win team, you will still pay the price for screwing up.

    One more thing, is that it's bad to talk about gunners generally. SBD, deka, wook (godcaster or fury makes many difference too) have a really different match up vs jedi/sith. BH and hero with their high speed plays very differently too. Dex 3 ARC, tricksters like nade whores are an entirely different story. So as a clarification I mainly talked about ETs with e-11/a280/t-21, soldiers, clones vs jedi/sith in this post, and to some degree it's true for bh, hero, arc without dex 3 and mando.
    Different guns make a difference. I could talk alot about the imbalances between guns, why I think M5 is one of the best weapon to fight sith right now, or how p3 got messed up with 1.4's block forever meta, but that's another topic. Or how good dlt's burst fire became after the 2 shot speed increases (now burst is one of the things with what you only need 1 mistake (bad swing/push) from the jedi to win hahaha). But since this post is already a long mess, I'll just end it for now.

    EDIT: also the best tip, which you can read in the game too. If you have trouble dealing with something, use it yourself. So just play jedi if you can't handle them as a gunner.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2018
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  8. Tylenol

    Tylenol Internal Beta Team

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    We need more Jeob on the forums
     
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  9. SomeGuy

    SomeGuy Donator

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    This is exactly how I feel it is, too. I would really like for them to both take thought and effort. (Hopefully that would reduce saber spam as well and bring more variety to games!)
     
  10. Gargos

    Gargos EU Official Server Admin

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    Jeob does pretty good job at explaining a thing that is quite hard to put on words at least without really sitting down and writing it down for an hour or two
     
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  11. Jeob

    Jeob

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    Well it took my whole afternoon to write the post with several breaks, often rephrasing many paragraphs and in the end I still wasn't satisfied with many parts. :D
     
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  12. Unamused Kanye

    Unamused Kanye

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    My only issue with Jedi V Gunner is the fact that fp drain favors the Jedi way too much. And I agree with OP that P3 vs a jedi that knows how to swingblock is much more difficult than before because they can swing deflect a bunch of hits consecutively with little penalty (cause FP drains arent fair). Along with the fact that some swings chain way to quickly out of flinching, jedi just get way too much of an advantage when fighting. Also deflect is another huge advantage with little risk involved that i feel gives too much of a crutch, especially in conjunction with everything else stated above.

    Then the whole knockdown mechanic is a whole 'nother topic of discussion, but i feel like if the above can be balanced enough, knockdown can still remain an essential part of their gameplay. Because i remember a time when Jedi was not only still an effective class to play, but still manageable and relatively fair when fighting against.
     
  13. Blazer

    Blazer

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    Here's the problem:
    Saberists are far more superior, and in a 1v1 situation, they are easily advantaged and have a greater chance at winning. There's no denying this becaus, well everyone (mostly) can agree.
    Also if you pitted two exactly equally skilled players against eachother, one gunner vs one saberist, I would put a lot of money down that the saberist would win. Over 50 rounds, I would bet that the saberist would win over 35. This is not a good sign in terms of balancing.

    In my opinion, this game needs far less mechanics, so my offer to fix it would probably be:
    -Damage reduction
    -Flinch
    +More knockback to Saberists
    -Reduce damage on pistol

    That may seem overwhelming, but doing some testing the devs could decide whether to keep reduction on or off.
     
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  14. cannonfodder

    cannonfodder

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    Right now a Jedi/sith has very little options against a hero/bh in a 1v1 situation. The DLT + poison darts that BH gets can shred a jedi's fp almost instantly if they aim it correctly. P3 with either of the classes can render the jedi/sith useless if the fight wasnt started in saber distance. both of the sith exclusive force powers do nothing to a hero, lightning with no stun lag and locking you out of force for 2 seconds, grip with the 2 second aim time + 70 fp requirement. P3 has a faster bullet speed than other guns, and can 2-3 shot a jedi/sith if you hit the chest and up. P3 also does 15 fp on a standing target, and 25 on a moving one (if the sith/jedi needs to approach, it takes 4 p3 shots to drain them completely, 1 less shot if they choose to use any force, and takes 2 shots max to render grip useless) A jedi/sith cant jump against a hero/bh because its a free p3 shot where they land. With how high the fp drains are with p3, whatever fp you started the battle with, is the max amount of fp you get for that fight. Both hero and BH can straight up outrun a jedi/sith, and then hero gets the try again button with dash. The only reliable way i've killed a BH in a 1v1 is by using speed or MT, and i've never been able to beat a hero with a sith consistantly. tracking darts render MT useless, and poison just makes a jedi an easy pick.

    And all this is in a 1v1, the hero/bh has teamates, it makes it way harder for the jedi/bh to do anything at all. having a sith teamate for a BH renders both speed and MT useless. and a jedi teamate for hero just gives them something to run/dash behind whenever you try to approach

    i'm thinking of a few things to make this less one sided,
    nerf the p3 damage/fp drain (doing 50+ hp on a damage reduc jedi/sith is rediculous, that'd 2-3 shot most other gunner classes)
    make the bullet speed slower, or just less firerate
    make the gun work like an ee3 - accurate on the first shot, inaccurate on the rest without breaks from shooting.
    make hero/bh run speed slower
    raise the dash cooldown
    or make fp regen faster

    Note: i'm not saying all these changes need to be added, just 1 or 2 of them that would make the fight less one sided.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
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  15. SomeGuy

    SomeGuy Donator

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    The problem is that P3 is just too good. It isn't OP vs just sabers, it's OP everywhere. IMO all it needs is the removal of perfect accuracy (applied to all pistols) Pretty big change after all these years but that's what I really feel it needs. (EE3 type degrading accuracy for all guns would be ideal)

    That would stop those mid swing headshots that do crazy high damage, which is really not that hard to do with P3.

    The other things you talk about with darts and dash or QT are pretty much designed to counter Jedi/Sith so I think they should stay as is. There are other strengths that saberists can use to mitigate these counters. Except grip, that needs a buff somewhere.
     
  16. Liniyka_xddd

    Liniyka_xddd EU Official Server Admin

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    Removing established mechanics is a sure way to ruin the gameplay for everyone. Prior to the shot speed increase p3 was perfectly fine. All it needs is a few tweaks, that's it.

    P1 and P2 are only relevant because they are always accurate. Remove that, and they will become close to useless.
     
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  17. Blazer

    Blazer

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    If you're good with it. I admit, it can be TOO good if you're good with it, but it has its deficiencies.
    Yikes, I hope I don't live to see that. That mechanic is the main reason why people use pistol, and why it's so efficient. Also what @Liniyka_xddd says "Removing established mechanics is a sure way to ruin gameplay" Not only is this a well-known very well established mechanic, but it's the root of the pistol.
     
  18. cannonfodder

    cannonfodder

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    We could just lower the accuracy on level 3 (a small pistol is shooting a t21 primary shot, should have some big knock back) or just make it work like ee3, its accurate on the first shot, but starts to get inaccurate after that unless you let take small breaks from shooting
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
  19. Tylenol

    Tylenol Internal Beta Team

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    Since when is Pistol a problem? I haven't heard any complaints about it ever since I started playing. It's in good spot right now and I don't see the point in moving it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
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  20. Blazer

    Blazer

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    This.
    I like pistol because it's been the only reliable and consistent weapon in terms of skill and usage. There's no change needed here unless some dramatic changes are to occur, depending on what happens to damage reduction for saberists.
     
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