Favoritism

[Falsetto]

You know the absolute best way to sum up not only a bad patch, but the people who are making these horrid changes? When the official feedback thread is locked NINE FUCKING DAYS after it launches. I've been playing this mod for around three years now and I've never had to actually sign up and say something before. But here I am, under an alias, so I can play in peace if I decide to go back. Before I start, I'd like to state a few observations I've made upon actually playing the game (something I don't believe the current devs actually do anymore)

- Many people state they are unsatisfied with the game post 1.3
- Many veteran players come back, asking if 1.4 is over yet, and then promptly leave when they see the same cancerous garbage (flinch namely) is still in effect
- Nearly everyone is a Bounty Hunter or a Hero

Let's talk about that last bit, shall we? I'll focus on Bounty Hunter. Let's state those advantages over the average class.

- Faster run speed. Free
- Unblockable poison and tracking darts
- The easy to use E-11
- The harder to use but just as effective DLT-20a
- One shot pistol if maxed that you can ALSO take with a one-shot sniper rifle that fires a projectile that takes off more FP than the wrist laser, a weapon DESIGNED for FP draining that many to consider to be a joke weapon due to how bad it is in average gameplay
- A super grenade that can vaporize anything or anyone
- A melee (also jumping if you want) kick that can be used while a weapon is out. Free
- They can roll if they're downed. Free

So that's two instakill guns, multiple knockdown methods, faster default run speed than the entire roster, and physical feats along to go with it. Fair! I have some questions.

- Why are they faster than everyone else if they're supposed to be snipers? Snipers aren't traditionally fast classes, that gives them an insane amount of unjustifiable survivability against Jedi which they already have an entire armory to use against them anyway. If a Jedi gets close to you as a long ranged specialist, you should be dead or at least at a huge disadvantage because you're then in the ring of the close range specialist.

- Why are the poison darts needed anymore? Before it made sense to lower down or halt a Jedi's FP regen through the darts, but now they have such absurdly low FP regeneration that it makes absolutely no sense to have these unless you want to guarantee the BH a free kill. Especially when the Jedi has no way of avoiding it other than jumping which is very easy to wait for them to stop doing. It has perfect accuracy across an entire hallway, can't be blocked, and is (from what I can tell) hitscan? Even Dash for Hero was nerfed because of how impossible it was for Sith to counter with a pistol combo.

- WHY CAN YOU TAKE THE ONESHOT PISTOL AND THE SNIPERS IN THE SAME BUILD? This guarantees you will be a powerhouse not only from long range but from up close, and more often than not I have BHs shoot at me with the proj rifle whilst I'm blocking then just switch to their gay little pistol and walk at me firing until I run out of FP. I can't run or jump away because I'll get shot in the back or I'll just empty my FP by jumping. Before I could attempt to engage them with a lucky jump kick or even a deflect because my FP wasn't laughably bad and there wasn't flinch but now there is almost no way to take them on if they're even remotely decent. You shouldn't be able to have a one shot kill from long range AND a one (or two) shot kill from up close, that's fucking retarded.

- Why can they kick with a weapon out? Simiarly, why can a Bounty Hunter/Hero roll if they get pushed over but not a Mandalorian who are trained warriors and as such are trained in acrobatics?

So let's see what that chalks up to - an extremely squirmy, unreasonably powerful class that does not have particularly hard to use weaponry and functions as a better counter to Jedi than fucking SBDs do. But not only that, their weapons tear through almost every gunner, their speed allows them to escape every single class, and should they run out of darts or heaven forbid ammo they can just switch to a different gun and spam at the Jedi down until they either run out of FP or trigger flinch. And devs refuse to touch it because they're too busy butchering Jedi with flinch, unreasonably low FP regen, no saber perks and now they're even going after push, one of the few things we have left.

Revert Jedi and Sith (better yet the entire game) back to 1.3, please. Maybe even further back. And then take a fucking look at how broken some of the gunner classes are. I didn't have a problem with BHs and Heroes until you slaughtered sabers, now I have no chance against them as a saberist or a gunner unless -- you guessed it -- go Hero or BH myself and get into a gay little sniper war. Fuck that. This kind of blatant gunner (rather, sniper) favoritism is killing the game.

 

[LanceOfLonginus]

itt: a jedi cries

i wish my grenades and ammo regenerated like forcepoints and that i could enjoy my 120 degrees of invulnerability so long as i have my regenerating resource.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Projectile rifle is stupid, but clone and SBD are dumber.

T-21 is also pretty dumb. As are alt-frag nades. Lightning/Grip are also pretty dumb.

 

[Falsetto]

itt: a jedi cries

i wish my grenades and ammo regenerated like forcepoints and that i could enjoy my 120 degrees of invulnerability so long as i have my regenerating resource.

Nice non arguement, wish I could dig up all the instances of gunners screeching about push or cyan's deflect. Also, even if you did have regenerating ammo and grenades, if you shared the same rate our shit regenerates you'd probably still only be able to throw one or two grenades out.

Projectile rifle is stupid, but clone and SBD are dumber.

T-21 is also pretty dumb. As are alt-frag nades. Lightning/Grip are also pretty dumb.

I've never had a problem fighting a SBD. Maybe when they had Cort 2, sure, but now? They're not that hard to take down unless you're new at sabering.

The rest I agree with.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

I am one of the top saberists in NA. You will never kill a good SBD in a 1v1 as Jedi.

 

[LanceOfLonginus]

being a good duelist doesn't mean you're a good open player, as these threads indicate.

back to gunners: BHs have more tools than most classes to deal with jedi, that's part of their kit and it comes primarily in their unique equipment (darts, arguably melee with weapon) EZ-11 still needs to be reloaded and you can't drain a forcepool with one clip of it. P3 requires instant moments of landing precise shots when the opponent is open, or whittling down their force (their problem).

Any jedi/sith who complains about gunner vs saberists fights is honestly hilarious to me, considering the amount of mistakes a jedi/sith can make in any given fight and still coming out on top (or retreating novel option to those immune to push) vs making a single mistake as a gunner and dying.

 

[Falsetto]

I am one of the top saberists in NA. You will never kill a good SBD in a 1v1 as Jedi.

1v1, no, you're not meant to. A good SBD will always win especially with the current system, especially since they were designed (if you pick Cortosis) to be anti-Jedi. However, in other instances of 1v1 against other classes, the SBD can be at a huge disadvantage. Unlike Heroes and BHs who can meet any threat perfectly.

being a good duelist doesn't mean you're a good open player, as these threads indicate.

back to gunners: BHs have more tools than most classes to deal with jedi, that's part of their kit and it comes primarily in their unique equipment (darts, arguably melee with weapon) EZ-11 still needs to be reloaded and you can't drain a forcepool with one clip of it. P3 requires instant moments of landing precise shots when the opponent is open, or whittling down their force (their problem).

Any jedi/sith who complains about gunner vs saberists fights is honestly hilarious to me, considering the amount of mistakes a jedi/sith can make in any given fight and still coming out on top (or retreating novel option to those immune to push) vs making a single mistake as a gunner and dying.

Making a mistake as a gunner versus a saberist has been retard proofed to the point where gunners should just be able to shoot through block. The reload time is so fast on E-11 and the pistol it cannot even be logically considered to be a downside to using the weapon. If you are being hit by heavy FP-drain weapons such as P3 or proj, you have two options: deflect it (hard to do because of how shitty deflect is to use ontop of how easy it is to read) or run away, which will cause you to lose fp due to the INSANE amount of FP you lose when running. Even if you manage to get behind a pillar or something, you regen FP so slowly and the BH moves so quickly it does not take that much effort for them to get close to you again for more FP draining.

Just for fun I fought against rather good saberists as a soldier with E-11, usually only using the MB1 fire. I killed them very consistently and they were unable to 1v1 me since I was walking and thus immune to their force, they had no way of interrupting me due to flinch and ultimately it boiled down to either trying to deflect my shots (to which I'd switch to mb2 and crouch/strafe) or just jump-blocking away from me. In earlier patches, they'd be able to soak a shot or two to jump kick me and interrupt it (and the counter to that would be to crouch before the kick connects), but now they can't even do that.

 

[LanceOfLonginus]

>good saberist
>jump kick gunners

i rest my case.

 

[Falsetto]

>good saberist
>jump kick gunners

i rest my case.

You don't have a case. That's like me saying this
>good gunner
>gunkicks sabers

Many of my complaints would be fixed if flinch was removed, but casuals won't allow that to happen. So what am I supposed to do, move at a snails pace to swingblock?

 

[LanceOfLonginus]

Flinch is a poor fix to a problem implemented farther back:
Damage reduction, pseudo Q3, removal of defensive tools(knockback)

It's a mechanic in gunner favor, coupled with drains I can see a case for saberist whinging, however outright removal of it without adding in complementary tools would be disastrous.

Complaints against flinch are valid, it feels unfair, no one likes their attacks negated so summarily as with flinch. If I die midswing from getting my head blown off fine, whatever. But if I get 3 (previously) solid swings staggered by flinch I'd be mad too.

PS: the case is that good saberists don't jump kick gunners.

 

[Falsetto]

Flinch is a poor fix to a problem implemented farther back:
Damage reduction, pseudo Q3, removal of defensive tools(knockback)

It's a mechanic in gunner favor, coupled with drains I can see a case for saberist whinging, however outright removal of it without adding in complementary tools would be disastrous.

Complaints against flinch are valid, it feels unfair, no one likes their attacks negated so summarily as with flinch. If I die midswing from getting my head blown off fine, whatever. But if I get 3 (previously) solid swings staggered by flinch I'd be mad too.

PS: the case is that good saberists don't jump kick gunners.

How is legitimate complaints about imbalance "whining"? And yes, I'm aware of what flinch was supposed to fix. That's my issue with it. Knockback worked completely fine and didn't screw me over when I was playing either gunner or saberist. I knew how to work with it, and I knew how to plan for it. But the issue with flinch is how unreliable it is almost half of the time, and how easy it is to abuse. This makes fighting shit like BHs a nightmare because back then even if they fucked you over with a dart you can at least try to take them head on instead of hiding behind a pillar feeling powerless for like five seconds until they reach you with sonic speed and drain all your FP with a pistol that can split mountains in half.

Swingblocking to prevent flinch only works on paper, you are moving so slowly when you swingblock you will miss your swing almost always. With a lack of Q3 , you have no way of even catching yourself if you mess up a swing.

And why don't good saberitsts jump kick gunners? Unless you mean now, which is valid, because jump kicking a gunner in a post-flinch patch is retarded. But prior to flinch, it was a very effective way to get a kill in a pinch. And many good gunners saw it coming, and countered it with a crouch. There was literally nothing wrong with it, and you were arguably a bad saberist if you didn't jump kick when you saw an opportunity. Now you don't even have the option at all because flinch cucks you out of even attempting it.

 

[Noob]

how about before you start getting in a bitch fit over opinions you take off your alias mask. i agree with your points about sniper and flinch. i personally just want knockbacks to be a thing again and ditch flinch

 

[Falsetto]

how about before you start getting in a bitch fit over opinions you take off your alias mask. i agree with your points about sniper and flinch. i personally just want knockbacks to be a thing again and ditch flinch

I'd rather not have faggots pestering me ingame over opinions I hold on a forum I don't even want to be posting on, so no. But clearly enough isn't being said about the imbalance gunners have over saberists so I'll be the one to do it.

I think a slightly larger knockback from being shot would help baby the casuals, but other than that I strongly believe there was no issue with the knockback as it existed previously. I'd even be okay with Hero and BH's busted arsenal if we just had old Jedi/Sith back to properly fight against it other than just picking a sniper and having a boring hallway camping fuckfest.

EDIT: Additionally, I also think that simply having the option to turn flinch off serverside would help a lot. That way if people want it, they can host their own server with it enabled instead of being forced to deal with it.

 

[Noob]

I'd rather not have faggots pestering me ingame

If you don't get this already im not sure we're playing the same game

 

[eezstreet]

BH as a class has a higher skill ceiling than Hero but if played well it has pretty much no counter, which makes it way stronger than Hero. At long ranges they are always superior than other classes (even debatably Hero since they have ruptor) and at close ranges they're only outmatched by Wooks and maybe clones...best to try to swarm them at close range with soldiers but even this has issues if you can't get close in the first place.

I think getting rid of darts and rolling would be a pretty strong nerf but not a bad idea.

 

[k4far]

Getting rid of darts and rolling would be a pretty strong nerf but not a bad idea.

I think it is quite bad idea. You can strip them of E-11 or just make it cost more.
Not sure why would be nerf BH/Hero before SBD or Deka slightly.

 

[LanceOfLonginus]

i don't really like this idea of removing mechanics from classes, especially when it's something only they get and is honestly really cool.

Darts fit the theme of bounty hunters really well. Rolling idk about changing, indifferent really anyone on the ground is meat for the grinder really. As previously stated I don't think the issue is with BH itself, so much as it is flinch and projectile rifle (of which hero also has)

 

[Gumba]

a jedi cries

/thread

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

Flinch feels like a nice mechanic. It's not as punishing as high damage, full stagger or heavy knockback. It's a very nice middle ground. In most situations where you run the risk of getting flinched, you can give swingblocking a chance and it will increase your survivability, slow you down, but guarantees a kill if the target fails to evade.

A large amount of the power behind Bounty Hunters and Heroes stems largely from map design. Lunarbase, DOTF, Deathstar, Commtower and almost every other map except for Smuggler and Alderaan is very very very sniper biased. This is the larger issue than the class design itself. This is what skews the playerbase to favour these classes. On Smuggler/Alderaan this skews more-so towards multilife and tanky classes.

It is also worth noting that every single-lifer class ought to have a survival mechanic. For BH/Hero this is fast movement speed. They are supposed to be slippery.

Perhaps the only avenue I would explore is restricting build variety just slightly by making Ammo 3 a near-necessity for a dedicated sniper.

 

[Tempest]

Fun fact: it's more effective to use pistol 1 than pistol 3 to drain FP from a blocking saberist (4 FP and 6 FP respectively but basically same RoF while the ammo drain difference is obvious).

Also, if you've been paying attention, you'd know there's plans for adjusting the various issues from the gunner perspective (bowcaster cough cough).

Edit:
Baseline saberist has been faceroll for a long time. All of the changes that have happened to it have been attempts to make it less easy mode. We're actually finally getting to a point where that's the case (more or less).