Basic Gameplay & Core Mechanics

[Magnøs]

This thread is mainly focused on the basic gameplay and the core mechanics which determine the overall characteristics of the game itself, however, it will also touch upon the visual aspect.

All proposed changes aimed at:

• Eliminating existing systemic breaks.
• Lowering barriers to entry the game, bringing it to the classic concept which is known as "easy to learn and difficult to master".
• Shifting players' attention from mechanical inputs to space of tactical decisions.
• Increasing comfort of perception of game situations.
• Improving gaming experience on the whole.

And based on the fundamental principles:

• Simplicity is about freedom from overcomplexity. Highly likely that a simple solution will be the most satisfactory one.
• Plausibility is about designing systems/mechanics/features that specifically feel appropriate to that particular game world/situation/place.
• Consistency is about organizing the game and its mechanics that it all works seamlessly together as logically as possible.

Movement:

Fix: Clone's/Arc's sprint affects walking/crouching speed while pressed.
Note: Uuuuuuuuur Ahhhhrrrrrr Uhrrrr Ahhhhrrrrrr Aaaarhg...​

Fix: Sporadic unexpected drops in movement speed when changing direction (walking/crouching/scoping).
Note: Affected: Soldier (without CC/if armed), Wookiee (without S3/if armed), Clone/ARC, Hero/BH (when scoping with PR/Disruptor).​

Fix: Backward walking animation.
Note: Unreasonably slow walking animation when moving back. However, if you are holding block as a Jedi/Sith, the animation speed changes to more appropriate.​

Change: Use common (the one that soldiers use) animation for quick-getup for all classes except Jedi/Sith.
Note: That magical flip-getup looks extremely bad for most of the classes. It is only about the visual part.​

Change: Movement speed according to movement methods: Run > Walk > Crouch.
Note: In the current build, if you just crouch, you will move faster than if you walk, and if you crouch+walk, you will move with the same speed as if you just walk. Also, crouching is always noiseless. It just doesn't look right.​

Change: Walk button no longer affects movement speed while crouching/blocking.
Note: As this feature does not have a positive effect on the gameplay, it should go away.​

Change: Slightly increase walking speed for all classes.
Note: In order to make walking faster than crouching.​

Change: Give the oppotunity to perform a roll-getup for all classes (expect SBD).
Note: In order to give players more control over their characters, what will positively affect the gameplay on the whole.​

Change: Jumps no longer drain BP, only FP.
Note: It looks that no BP regeneration and increased damage to BP on hit are fairly enough.​

Knockdown abilities:

Change: Can no longer slap during a swing (by analogy with Force powers).
Note: Such slaps negatively affect the gameplay and just look ridiculous.​

Change: Can no longer block saber swings during slap/slapping-getup (by analogy with Force powers).
Note: In order to make Slap require more skill and shift players' attention to other parts of the gameplay.​

Change: Knockdown abilities cause a knockback/stagger even when hitting someone that is blocking/crouching.
Note: Higher risk, higher reward. Fair enough.​

Sabering:

Change: Swings characteristics:

• Full swing: high damage, slow speed.
• Consecutive swing: low damage, high speed.
• Half swing: medium damage, medium speed.
• PB-Counter (Riposte): low damage, high speed, causes a stagger if not PB'ed.

Note: Interdependence between BP damage and speed. Combo breaking on PB-Counter. As for the ACM mechanic, it looks very well when players have to decide what is more important at the moment: to deal more damage in a single point of time, or to gain ACM faster.​

Change: BP Damage multipliers according to the character's state: Underfoot > Jumping/Flying > Running > Walking/Standing/Crouching.
Note: Previously, we have reduced the presence of knockdowns in the game and here we increase their potency. Knocking an opponent of his feet will be more rewarding than before. As for crouching, it needs no additional penalties such as increased damage to BP on hit, as no BP regeneration and reduced damage on attacks are more than enough.​

Change: Move BP drain for attacks from being based on button inputs to being flat drains based on stance.
Note: BP drains should be adjusted to fix the situation when players drain most of their BP by themselves.​

Change: Maximally reduce the difference in speed between swings within a stance.
Note: In order to make all swings within a stance equally useful.​

Change: Reduce the difference in speed between the stances (speed up Red, Purple; slow down Blue, Cyan, possibly White and Green).
Note: If you want to balance the stances according to each other without systemic breaks, this change is actually inevitable. Let's look briefly at the reasons for this state of affairs. The most skill-demanding and, at the same time, rewarding thing in the game is PB. The success of PB depends directly on the speed of an incoming swing. You can make an incredibly slow stance which would drain 90 BP on body hit, however, it would be the weakest one, simply because you would not achieve a single body hit, as all of your swings would be PB'ed even by a sleepy turtle, not to mention interrupts. You may try again and make a stance that would drain only 0.33 BP on body hit but would also be 12 times faster than current Blue. Probably, you already know which stance would be the strongest one. Thus, we have learned that we cannot balance a stance once the speed of its swings has reached a certain value. It can be either overpowered or underpowered. Now let's see what happens if we apply the proposed change and significantly reduce the difference in speed between the stances, so the fastest stance will be only 1.5 times faster than the slowest one. Some of you might say that it will kill the diversity. Oh, I don't thing so. Especially considering that you can find nothing but Yellow when it comes to competitive duels. Try to guess why. Even if we set Yellow's speed for all the stances, it will affect the gameplay only positively.​

Change: Speed up spin-swings to make them comparable with normal swings.
Note: In order to make them useful.​

Change: No movement speed reduction during spin-swings.
Note: In order to make them useful.​

Change: Add the ability to perform an unlimited number of swings in a chain until the first collision with a saber/body, then use regular limitations.
Note: This change will improve the gameplay without any negative consequences.​

Remove: Perfect Parry.
Note: Performing a PP is absolutely random. Moreover, it is completely useless. Nothing will change after it's gone.​

Remove: Instant Counter on successful MBlock.
Note: Unnecessary overcomplicated mechanic.​

Remove: Penalties on unsuccessful MBlock.
Note: MBlock is a skill-demanding technique and needs no additional statistical balancing.​

Change: Parrying with no BP will cause a stagger.
Note: In the current build, players have restrictions on comboing when reaching/having 0 BP. The proposed change is more elegant solution.​

Change: Reintroduce Semi-Perfect Block: decreases BP damage; works only if blocking (as Perfect Block).
Note: In order to reinforce the difference between players who try to PB and those who do not.​

Change: Slow down MBlock aninations.
Note: To make movements smoother in order to increase comfort of perception of a game situation.​

Change: Forbid to start a new MBlock animation until the previous ends.
Note: To prevent distractive visual spam in order to increase comfort of perception of a game situation.​

Change: Successful disarm resets ACM of the target.
Note: In order to increase the relevance of MBlock and Swingblock.​

Change: Swingblock no longer affects BP damage.
Note: Swingblock is a skill-demanding technique and needs no additional statistical balancing.​

Remove: All the saber perks.
Note: Due to significant changes in the core mechanics. New perks to replace the old. Or no perks at all.​

Other:

Change: Force-Lighting causes Flinch when hitting someone.
Note: Just an additional visual effect for Lightning's stun.​

Change: All successful projectile/saber hits cause Flinch.
Note: In fact, Flinch is nothing more but a pain animation. In accordance with the principle of Consistency, the question arises: why does Flinch appear only in a single special situation? If it is possible to make it appear without preventing players from shooting/using melee, it would be highly recommended. Although, having Flinch preventing from shooting/using melee may be interesting, it also might be an issue without a major rework of weapon accuracy.​

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

Nice and thought out post!

The movement suggestions in particular sound really good.

I would note that it would be cool to keep the coinflip animation in place for mid-air getups. Bringing getup rolls to most classes could be nice. I would probably adjust that rule slightly, so that it only encompasses all single life classes except SBD/Deka. Multilifers exist in part to create a power fantasy for other classes such as Jedi. There needs to be cannon fodder.

Sabering rework tweaks sound like a lot to take in, but perhaps Tempest can find something worthwhile to look into.

Using flinch to indicate damage received without inducing a stun would be very inconsistent. Flinch is a nice mechanic currently as it justifies lower FP drains and HP damage received for jedi/sith. Backing out on this would bring us back to a more binary Saber vs Gun situation, which I am not a fan of. I do get the reasoning behind moving it to either be all-encompassing or just a visual effect, but I think creating a special case rule here is better for overall gameplay. It is there to visualize an interrupt.

 

[hleV]

Non-swingblocks have to deal more BP damage. Otherwise there's no point to not swingblock, and by the time one learns to always swingblock, blocking during attack becomes redundant/nuisance. It should be risk vs reward, not just reward.

Same goes to Mblock. An attempt to perform it should have a penalty because the opponent can't do anything to prevent such attempt.

 

[Gumba]

That magical flip-getup looks extremely bad for most of the classes. It is only about the visual part.

Great change would also remove the super op tiny hitbox that you have during this getup.

 

[SeV]

Change: Jumps no longer drain BP, only FP.
Note: It looks that no BP regeneration and increased damage to BP on hit are fairly enough.​

Knockdown abilities:

Change: Can no longer slap during a swing (by analogy with Force powers).
Note: Such slaps negatively affect the gameplay and just look ridiculous.​

Change: Can no longer block saber swings during slap/slapping-getup (by analogy with Force powers).
Note: In order to make Slap require more skill and shift players' attention to other parts of the gameplay.​

Change: Knockdown abilities cause a knockback/stagger even when hitting someone that is blocking/crouching.
Note: Higher risk, higher reward. Fair enough.​

My change that I am trying to push for with regards to jumping is to make non-force jumps not drain BP. I think fully removing BP drain from jumps is kind of going overboard. The main purpose of jumps in dueling for me is to get a good opener for an exchange and make that opening attack much harder to PB. Having to pay a chunk of BP every time u do a short jump is a bit bad. Though I personally wouldn't mind if this extended to all jumps, making jumps BP free. For me the main thing would be making non-force jumps cost no BP, but I can also dig no BP cost on all jumps to a certain extent even though it will have a few minor and probably neglible effects on gameplay.

As for the slap changes. The first one, not being able to slap during a swing, very interesting change. I'd be interested in seeing how that would affect gameplay. We have feints now to cancel swings. Also I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of utility returning to +use kicks since the input is harder. Perhaps same restriction for them as you suggest for slap + a short stagger upon impact? And keep slap as it is currently? That way you distinguish between use kicks and normal slaps and both have a purpose, I suppose.

Not being able to block during a slap, hell no. Bad change. Taking more BP damage might be an option though.
About the stagger, it should be on +use kicks if they have the 'can't be used in swing' restriction. And it should be more of a flinch than a stagger. It would be interesting to see how that will affect the game. TBH though, only thing so far for me is the BP jump change. The slap change is a question mark, a maybe, for me. A 'let's give it a try in testing' kind of suggestion.

Sabering:

Change: Swings characteristics:

• Full swing: high damage, slow speed.
• Consecutive swing: low damage, high speed.
• Half swing: medium damage, medium speed.
• PB-Counter (Riposte): low damage, high speed, causes a stagger if not PB'ed.

Note: Interdependence between BP damage and speed. Combo breaking on PB-Counter. As for the ACM mechanic, it looks very well when players have to decide what is more important at the moment: to deal more damage in a single point of time, or to gain ACM faster.

​

The idea might seem sensible on the surface. But personally I think that swinging a lightsaber slowly = more damage is an utterly retarded idea. In real life the faster you swing the better that swing is. Gameplay wise it works out better though, but still... Also, having slow starter attacks is very problematic since we still have Mblock combo breaking and fast countering. The first swing needs to be difficult to block, otherwise sabering turns into utter cancer. Nudge was a sort of blanket fix to many issues and this first swing issue is one of them.

I think we should have normal halfswings in all directions, and fast halfswings (old style) in restricted directions, for poking and weaving in through combos for momentum etc, it works extremely well that way, trust me. It's like nudge but without all the annoying things associated with it (in a sense).
​

Change: BP Damage multipliers according to the character's state: Underfoot > Jumping/Flying > Running > Walking/Standing/Crouching.
Note: Previously, we have reduced the presence of knockdowns in the game and here we increase their potency. Knocking an opponent of his feet will be more rewarding than before. As for crouching, it needs no additional penalties such as increased damage to BP on hit, as no BP regeneration and reduced damage on attacks are more than enough.​

Change: Move BP drain for attacks from being based on button inputs to being flat drains based on stance.
Note: BP drains should be adjusted to fix the situation when players drain most of their BP by themselves.​

I agree with the first change, if slapping is harder to accomplish it needs more rewards in the form of increased dmg. I think Jumping and running should be on the same level for simplicity's sake, and walking/standing/crouching aswell.

However, flat drains present problems. The biggest one being this. Flat drains based on stance. Say your stance does 10 BP damage but drains 8 per attack. Not only does attacking become a bad idea, it becomes self defeating. It is also problematic with regards to combos dealing less damage. So comboing = raping your own BP. If it's reduced to 10 BP dmg, 5 BP drain. it is still problematic but less so. There is still too much of a risk to attacking. The system where you just tap vs hold is flat out better due to a few things. Number 1 it rewards mechanical skill, number 2 it does away with the problematic dissincentivization of attacking that comes with noticable flat drains. If flat drains are reduced to a point where they don't matter, then it becomes a worse version of the tap/hold. I don't think its possible to strike a balance that is satisfactory here. I say lets not try to fix what isn't broken. Tap hold worked for over 10 years and a better alternative has yet to be found. Only ppl who don't understand sabering can argue vehemently agaisnt this...

Change: Maximally reduce the difference in speed between swings within a stance.
Note: In order to make all swings within a stance equally useful.​

Change: Reduce the difference in speed between the stances (speed up Red, Purple; slow down Blue, Cyan, possibly White and Green).
Note: If you want to balance the stances according to each other without systemic breaks, this change is actually inevitable. Let's look briefly at the reasons for this state of affairs. The most skill-demanding and, at the same time, rewarding thing in the game is PB. The success of PB depends directly on the speed of an incoming swing. You can make an incredibly slow stance which would drain 90 BP on body hit, however, it would be the weakest one, simply because you would not achieve a single body hit, as all of your swings would be PB'ed even by a sleepy turtle, not to mention interrupts. You may try again and make a stance that would drain only 0.33 BP on body hit but would also be 12 times faster than current Blue. Probably, you already know which stance would be the strongest one. Thus, we have learned that we cannot balance a stance once the speed of its swings has reached a certain value. It can be either overpowered or underpowered. Now let's see what happens if we apply the proposed change and significantly reduce the difference in speed between the stances, so the fastest stance will be only 1.5 times faster than the slowest one. Some of you might say that it will kill the diversity. Oh, I don't thing so. Especially considering that you can find nothing but Yellow when it comes to competitive duels. Try to guess why. Even if we set Yellow's speed for all the stances, it will affect the gameplay only positively.​

Change: Speed up spin-swings to make them comparable with normal swings.
Note: In order to make them useful.​

Change: No movement speed reduction during spin-swings.
Note: In order to make them useful.​

Change: Add the opportunity to perform an unlimited number of swings in a chain until the first collision with a saber/body, then use regular limitations.
Note: This change will improve the gameplay without any negative consequences.​

Agree with the first one. Nothing to add there.
The second one aswell. I have been making similar arguments. I think that stances should be closer to each other in speed and be differentiated by animations, perks, BP dmg vs Defense and so on. Cyan for example would be a million times better at yellow speeds and I have been trying to get ppl to understand this for a long time. But a few ppl want a lightning fast insta hit stance because they have a parrying fetish *Cough* Achilles *Cough* It's totally not cause insta swings are easy to play with and generally OP. It's so I can elegantly parry instead of using mouse aim skill and PB. lul.

Spin swings can gtfo, they look retarded in general.

Chaining. Well... I know a certain chaining system of which I approve. Should be in the game. Your suggestion is a bit off the rails though. It should be more like you're earning extra swings in the chain by weaving in halfswings or something to that effect.

Remove: Perfect Parry.
Note: Performing a PP is absolutely random. Moreover, it is completely useless. Nothing will change after it's gone.​

Remove: Instant Counter on successful MBlock.
Note: Unnecessary overcomplicated mechanic.​

Remove: Penalties on unsuccessful MBlock.
Note: MBlock is a skill-demanding technique and needs no additional statistical balancing.​

I agree that PP is a rather stupid mechanic in general. A parry should just be a parry. Its introduction seems nearly pointless and just floods the game with something unnecessary that has nearly no practical utility.

I like insta counter on Mblock to ensure kills after I mblock someone, esp with heavy stances. Reluctant to remove. However, removing it has merit aswell since it will make first attacks easier cuz less fear of shitty insta counter. I am on the fence. Atm, I wanna keep it for now because its a skill based mechanic.

Also don't mind removing penalties on Mblock. Takes skill to perform, should increase CD from 1 sec to 2 sec maybe, but that's it.

Change: Parrying with no BP will cause a stagger.
Note: In the current build, players have restrictions on comboing when reaching/having 0 BP. The proposed change is more elegant solution.​

Change: Reintroduce Semi-Perfect Block: decreases BP damage; works only if blocking (as Perfect Block).
Note: In order to reinforce the difference between players who try to PB and those who do not.​

Change: Slow down MBlock aninations.
Note: To make movements smoother in order to increase comfort of perception of a game situation.​

Change: Forbid to start a new MBlock animation until the previous ends.
Note: To prevent distractive visual spam in order to increase comfort of perception of a game situation.​

Change: Successful disarm resets ACM of the target.
Note: In order to increase the relevance of MBlock and Swingblock.​

Change: Swingblock no longer affects BP damage.
Note: Swingblock is a skill-demanding technique and needs no additional statistical balancing.​

Remove: All the saber perks.
Note: Due to significant changes in the core mechanics. New perks to replace the old. Or no perks at all.​

No BP parries just combo break. I don't want them to stagger and be auto gg. Semi-PB should be in returns only, not while walking, running etc. Only on returns. So I agree with your change. Aka when holding block u can semi PB.

The thing about Mblock anims and block anims in general is that they lock you out of the game and restrict your inputs. Having them be slow might be good visually, but I question whether it would improve the feeling of the game. Might prove to be fatally crap since you'd be stuck in a slow-ass mblock anim and unable to do anything for its duration. No thanks.

About ACM. I think how it is currently, is atrociously bad. ACM affecting the global AP multiplier leads to inconsistent and unpredictable BP damages and forces the duelists to play a certain way to optimize ACM and not BP drain. ACM is a mechanic that greatly overcomplicates the system in a bad way. I propose to remove it from the global modifier so that all swings deal the same BP damage baseline and aren't constantly affected by an invisible and everchanging modifier nobody can know or guess at really. The way ACM worked originally was that once you reached say +7 bodyhits more than your opponent, you'd get a substantial damage boost. If you dip below +7 to +6, you lose all the damage boost. Go above again and u gain back the huge dmg boost. This was there to enable skilled players to end onesided duels more quickly and worked decently well. Going back to a system like that, where ACM only starts affecting the global AP after reaching a huge difference, is one option. The other is radical and I love the idea. Here it is.

ACM HP drains. Weave it into every aspect of the game. PBs regenerate small HP, bodyhits drain small HP. All dependant on ACM and ACM diff between players, but nothing radical. If HP drain is introduced this way again like it was in old builds, we can put heal back into the game for jedi and make speed a neutral force power. Alternatively, can keep speed as jedi exclusive and give sith side force drain (strictly HP drains). So we get 2 new forcepowers to do with HP, and a HP dependant ACM momentum system where PBs help you regen HP. Potential for much skill and also serves the purpose of momentum. In addition it would have interesting implications for open mode.

If you're less radically inclined, go for the old ACC ACM style idea instead. Or just have ACM be strictly for special attacks such as blue lunge, but the main thing is having it so ACM does NOT affect global AP. Just raise global AP somewhat to compensate, so we can have quicker duels in general esp in open mode. Big problem with 1.4 and builds after it was slow duels vs noobs. It was hard to quickly kill someone. Back in older builds I could destroy someone very quickly with nudged red for example, and move on. Open mode 1v1 could last like 5 sec and I could move on. And I could have 5 min duels with skilled players. A system with such flexibility in dueling speed is preferable to some obscure ACM dependant phantom ever adjusting BP drain math behind the scenes crap that encourages ppl to hit and run and not fight like (wo)men and try to drain BP as quickly as possible. There is beauty in simplicity here. Clean BP drains, higher BP drains. Less obscure ACM crap ++profit.

AND YES. HELL YES. Swingblocks should not deal less dmg than non-swingblocks. I have said it for years. Swingblocking requires much more skill than non-swingblocks. Why the hell should I be punished with lower BP damage? And some m1 holding noob can deal more BP damage than me because he can't play properly? It's retarded. If anything it should be reversed, or atleast evened out.

And yeah, perks need to be looked at aswell.

Other:

Change: Force-Lighting causes Flinch when hitting someone.
Note: Just an additional visual effect for Lightning's stun.​

Change: All successful projectile/saber hits cause Flinch.
Note: In fact, Flinch is nothing more but a pain animation. In accordance with the principle of Consistency, the question arises: why does Flinch appear only in a single special situation? If it is possible to make it appear without preventing players from shooting/using melee, it would be highly recommended. Although, having Flinch preventing from shooting/using melee may be interesting, it also might be an issue without a major rework of weapon accuracy.​

Your suggestions may be interesting. For a flinch rework, I would maybe have flinch only on slower, high damage weapons like pistol 3 and Big bertha (t-21) primary, or e-11 primary and EE-3/Westars/arc pistols etc. But not on smth like CR3 and SBD lazer. Or have things like CR3 take 2 bullets to flinch or smth. In general though I think how flinch works currently is pretty good. My issue is with FP drains and FP regen. (I want higher FP drains and Higher FP regen and removed/adjusted FP debuff on being shot down to 0.5 sec, but pref having it removed)

 

[jango40]

When I see threads like these, I immediately think I will be greeted with tons of shitty changes to fundamental and long-lasting features, e.g removing the Projectile rifle. This is actually a well thought-out thread, with proper explanations why features need changing and how they will improve the game. The thread is very well-structured and easy to read too. I just glossed over the Sabering suggestions as I do not really give a single shit about it anymore due to it being changed all the fucking time and impossible to keep up with, but I agree with everything else 100%. Bravo, sir.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Fix: Sporadic unexpected drops in movement speed when changing direction (walking/crouching/scoping).
Note: Affected: Soldier (without CC/if armed), Wookiee (without S3/if armed), Clone/ARC, Hero/BH (when scoping with PR/Disruptor).​

I do not want a Hero/BH running as fast as they normally do with a sniper rifle, or a Wookiee running as fast as they do with a rifle/pistol. That is absolutely awful. No.​

: Backward walking animation.
Note: Unreasonably slow walking animation when moving back. However, if you are holding block as a Jedi/Sith, the animation speed changes to more appropriate.

Okay.​

: Use common (the one that soldiers use) animation for quick-getup for all classes except Jedi/Sith.
Note: That magical flip-getup looks extremely bad for most of the classes. It is only about the visual part.

Okay.​

: Movement speed according to movement methods: Run > Walk > Crouch.
Note: In the current build, if you just crouch, you will move faster than if you walk, and if you crouch+walk, you will move with the same speed as if you just walk. Also, crouching is always noiseless. It just doesn't look right.

Okay.​

: Walk button no longer affects movement speed while crouching/blocking.
Note: As this feature does not have a positive effect on the gameplay, it should go away.

Okay.​

: Slightly increase walking speed for all classes.
Note: In order to make walking faster than crouching.

Or just slow crouch movement speed.​

: Give the oppotunity to perform a roll-getup for all classes (expect SBD).
Note: In order to give players more control over their characters, what will positively affect the gameplay on the whole.

Only for Mando/Com/ET (With CQ2).​

: Jumps no longer drain BP, only FP.
Note: It looks that no BP regeneration and increased damage to BP on hit are fairly enough.

NO. I do not want to have to fight against someone spamming their jump button in a fight, or trying to escape through jumps. You have no idea how annoying that is. No.​

: Can no longer slap during a swing (by analogy with Force powers).
Note: Such slaps negatively affect the gameplay and just look ridiculous.

You have to be able to slap during a swing to be able to match the opponent's swing timing to knock them down. This change would mean there is absolutely no downside to combo-spamming or counter-swing spamming.​

: Can no longer block saber swings during slap/slapping-getup (by analogy with Force powers).
Note: In order to make Slap require more skill and shift players' attention to other parts of the gameplay.

Okay.​

: Knockdown abilities cause a knockback/stagger even when hitting someone that is blocking/crouching.
Note: Higher risk, higher reward. Fair enough.

No. You want to make SBD even more OP, or Wookiee broken. No, never. Stop it.​

: Swings characteristics:

• Full swing: high damage, slow speed.
• Consecutive swing: low damage, high speed.
• Half swing: medium damage, medium speed.
• PB-Counter (Riposte): low damage, high speed, causes a stagger if not PB'ed.

Note: Interdependence between BP damage and speed. Combo breaking on PB-Counter. As for the ACM mechanic, it looks very well when players have to decide what is more important at the moment: to deal more damage in a single point of time, or to gain ACM faster.

PB counter is not returning, ever. Current system of damages is fine, except Half-Swing should be counted towards a consecutive.​

: BP Damage multipliers according to the character's state: Underfoot > Jumping/Flying > Running > Walking/Standing/Crouching.
Note: Previously, we have reduced the presence of knockdowns in the game and here we increase their potency. Knocking an opponent of his feet will be more rewarding than before. As for crouching, it needs no additional penalties such as increased damage to BP on hit, as no BP regeneration and reduced damage on attacks are more than enough.

How about no? Crouching is the act of an inexperienced saberist, and it should not be any less dangerous than it is. We don't need further BP multipliers on knockdowns, as they can happen way too often in this game.​

: Move BP drain for attacks from being based on button inputs to being flat drains based on stance.
Note: BP drains should be adjusted to fix the situation when players drain most of their BP by themselves.

We've been there before, it didn't work all that well. Though I'm not opposed to tweaking it heavily.​

: Maximally reduce the difference in speed between swings within a stance.
Note: In order to make all swings within a stance equally useful.

Okay.​

: Reduce the difference in speed between the stances (speed up Red, Purple; slow down Blue, Cyan, possibly White and Green).
Note: If you want to balance the stances according to each other without systemic breaks, this change is actually inevitable. Let's look briefly at the reasons for this state of affairs. The most skill-demanding and, at the same time, rewarding thing in the game is PB. The success of PB depends directly on the speed of an incoming swing. You can make an incredibly slow stance which would drain 90 BP on body hit, however, it would be the weakest one, simply because you would not achieve a single body hit, as all of your swings would be PB'ed even by a sleepy turtle, not to mention interrupts. You may try again and make a stance that would drain only 0.33 BP on body hit but would also be 12 times faster than current Blue. Probably, you already know which stance would be the strongest one. Thus, we have learned that we cannot balance a stance once the speed of its swings has reached a certain value. It can be either overpowered or underpowered. Now let's see what happens if we apply the proposed change and significantly reduce the difference in speed between the stances, so the fastest stance will be only 1.5 times faster than the slowest one. Some of you might say that it will kill the diversity. Oh, I don't thing so. Especially considering that you can find nothing but Yellow when it comes to competitive duels. Try to guess why. Even if we set Yellow's speed for all the stances, it will affect the gameplay only positively.

This has already been discussed.​

: Speed up spin-swings to make them comparable with normal swings.
Note: In order to make them useful.

Spin swings were useful in 1.3, and undesirable at the same time. I could use spin swings to parry attacks from behind me. With swing restrictions in place, spins should be a punishment for trying to do same-sided swings.​

: No movement speed reduction during spin-swings.
Note: In order to make them useful.

That would look silly.​

: Add the opportunity to perform an unlimited number of swings in a chain until the first collision with a saber/body, then use regular limitations.
Note: This change will improve the gameplay without any negative consequences.

No. The last thing I want to see is some random swinging at me like a retarded badger having a seizure all the way down a hallway.​

: Perfect Parry.
Note: Performing a PP is absolutely random. Moreover, it is completely useless. Nothing will change after it's gone.

It isn't fully random. From outside of face-hug range you can easily use Cyan to PP on reaction any red/purple/yellow/staff swing. It is a useful tool for fighting 1vX, and with slower swings it will be fine.​

: Instant Counter on successful MBlock.
Note: Unnecessary overcomplicated mechanic.

I agree.​

: Penalties on unsuccessful MBlock.
Note: MBlock is a skill-demanding technique and needs no additional statistical balancing.

I agree, sort of. But it should need some other form of drawback.​

: Parrying with no BP will cause a stagger.
Note: In the current build, players have restrictions on comboing when reaching/having 0 BP. The proposed change is more elegant solution.

That is fine.​

: Reintroduce Semi-Perfect Block: decreases BP damage; works only if blocking (as Perfect Block).
Note: In order to reinforce the difference between players who try to PB and those who do not.

No. Never. Stop it. Semi-PB was atrocious, and only served to keep people that couldn't PB properly alive. It will stay dead forever.​

: Slow down MBlock aninations.
Note: To make movements smoother in order to increase comfort of perception of a game situation.

Okay.​

: Forbid to start a new MBlock animation until the previous ends.
Note: To prevent distractive visual spam in order to increase comfort of perception of a game situation.

Meh.​

: Successful disarm resets ACM of the target.
Note: In order to increase the relevance of MBlock and Swingblock.

No need, that just makes a random-mblock = victory.​

: Swingblock no longer affects BP damage.
Note: Swingblock is a skill-demanding technique and needs no additional statistical balancing.

No. Never. Swingblock is already too prevalent, and should be nerfed. It has become nearly mandatory for most people, and has caused EU players to not understand how to deal with shadow swinging. Swingblock at high level is almost as brainless as spamming without it at low level. If anything, swingblocking should prevent you from continuing a combo. I got tired of seeing the old swingblock-combo purple spam from 1.3, and would like it to never return.​

: All the saber perks.
Note: Due to significant changes in the core mechanics. New perks to replace the old. Or no perks at all.

Or they could just be balanced and interesting, instead of being removed because you can't think of a way to do so.​

: Force-Lighting causes Flinch when hitting someone.
Note: Just an additional visual effect for Lightning's stun.

Okay.​

: All successful projectile/saber hits cause Flinch.
Note: In fact, Flinch is nothing more but a pain animation. In accordance with the principle of Consistency, the question arises: why does Flinch appear only in a single special situation? If it is possible to make it appear without preventing players from shooting/using melee, it would be highly recommended. Although, having Flinch preventing from shooting/using melee may be interesting, it also might be an issue without a major rework of weapon accuracy.

That would require a huge amount of balance, but I am fine with that.​

 

[StarWarsGeek]

Fix: Sporadic unexpected drops in movement speed when changing direction (walking/crouching/scoping).

I do not want a Hero/BH running as fast as they normally do with a sniper rifle, or a Wookiee running as fast as they do with a rifle/pistol. That is absolutely awful. No.

I believe you misread this, this is a bugfix that has nothing to do with intentional changes in speed when changing weapons/scoping. It's about unintentional speed decreases during direction changes (without toggling scope or swapping weapons). The notes are a list of classes/abilities the bug occurs with.

 

[Lessen]

Some of the suggestions are nice and I agree with em (like changing coinflip getup to soldier getup, so long as it was also made as easy to grapple soldier getup as it currently is to grapple coinflip). Other changes seem to be suggested without full regard for how much it would change the balance (like giving everybody a roll getup) although I still find them intriguing just cuz I like seeing how changes affect balance lol.

I have beef with a lotta things but one thing I particularly have beef with that Achilles surprisingly didn't have beef with was the idea of normalizing swing speeds within saber styles. I really like different styles having different properties to different swings, because it means different styles will be weighted towards having certain attack directions in certain contexts, making PB more predictable overall once you get past the learning curve. (For instance, a Red-style first swing is likely to be a WA swing cuz it's so fast)

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

I believe you misread this, this is a bugfix that has nothing to do with intentional changes in speed when changing weapons/scoping. It's about unintentional speed decreases during direction changes (without scoping or swapping weapons). The notes are a list of classes/abilities the bug occurs with.

Ah, I did then. Because I thought he wanted Wookiee to run as fast with a weapon as they do without one, which would be ridiculously overpowered.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

I have beef with a lotta things but one thing I particularly have beef with that Achilles surprisingly didn't have beef with was the idea of normalizing swing speeds within saber styles. I really like different styles having different properties to different swings, because it means different styles will be weighted towards having certain attack directions in certain contexts, making PB more predictable overall once you get past the learning curve. (For instance, a Red-style first swing is likely to be a WA swing cuz it's so fast)

I do have a beef with that, but at the same time it is semi-necessary with cyan/blue against red (purple is fine). But the swing speeds will be changed, so that isn't really a topic to discuss until patches down the road.

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

Some of the suggestions are nice and I agree with em (like changing coinflip getup to soldier getup, so long as it was also made as easy to grapple soldier getup as it currently is to grapple coinflip). Other changes seem to be suggested without full regard for how much it would change the balance (like giving everybody a roll getup) although I still find them intriguing just cuz I like seeing how changes affect balance lol.

I suspect the meta would shift significantly depending on how this is handled. The big advantage would be giving players more movement. This reduces the frustration factor slightly as it reduces the player's lack of control in a knockdown situation. I thinkt it could be a beneficial feature.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Or, another thought, you could reduce the ridiculous quantity of knockdowns in the game and how often they happen.

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

Or, another thought, you could reduce the ridiculous quantity of knockdowns in the game and how often they happen.

They are rare as is if you git gud.

Knockdowns are a nice tool for creating tension. Good gameplay needs low points as much as it needs high points. The joy you get from a game stems from overcoming these low points. Rather than removing them and making the game more bland, I find it to be a more fun option to give options after the knockdown.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

... Right.

Clearly the KOTOR 2 cut content was on purpose so the player would have a low point, so they'd appreciate the high points more. Gotta have the bad with the good, I believe that is the EA Games design standard.

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

... Right.

Clearly the KOTOR 2 cut content was on purpose so the player would have a low point, so they'd appreciate the high points more. Gotta have the bad with the good, I believe that is the EA Games design standard.

And this somehow refutes my points

Good banter.

 

[Damn Polak]

Uuuuuuuuur Ahhhhrrrrrr Uhrrrr Ahhhhrrrrrr Aaaarhg...

dude what

In the current build, if you just crouch, you will move faster than if you walk

for real? holy shit i wasn't aware

I like seeing how changes affect balance lol

THIS
how much effort would it take to implement all this and betatest it properly?

 

[LanceOfLonginus]

Knockdowns are here to stay. Stop taking your duel server experience and trying to apply it to the much larger world of open. You hammer the same points endlessly while people with more and varied experience disagree with you.

PS: holy cow I didn't know crouch was faster. This opens a new era of battle vs jedis

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Knockdowns are here to stay. Stop taking your duel server experience and trying to apply it to the much larger world of open. You hammer the same points endlessly while people with more and varied experience disagree with you.

PS: holy cow I didn't know crouch was faster. This opens a new era of battle vs jedis

Criticizes me for not being experienced, then in the same post states that he didn't know something as basic as that. Okay.

And surely I have never stepped foot into an open mode game, or played any other class. Nay, I am just one of those filthy glowstick users all day every day. Clearly.

They are rare as is if you git gud.

Ah yes, because I have yet to 'git gud'. Clearly.

Knockdowns are a nice tool for creating tension.

The tension of knowing that I'm going to die, and casually minimizing MB2 to watch youtube?

Good gameplay needs low points as much as it needs high points.

You may be confusing emotional investment in story-driven games with gameplay. A game doesn't need engineered bad things to make you appreciate good things more, that's just dumb. Winning or losing is the only 'high' or 'low' points you should need.

The joy you get from a game stems from overcoming these low points.

I don't think I've ever had 'joy' from overcoming an alt-frag/blob knockdown, because 9/10 I'm either dead (if I don't have quick-getup/roll), or I'm put into a position where I'm about to be dead. More a mild annoyance.

Rather than removing them and making the game more bland, I find it to be a more fun option to give options after the knockdown.

Who said anything about removing all knockdowns? I just want knockdowns that are skillful to remain, not stupid knockdowns that have no counter play. Also, the more options you give to people after a knockdown, the less impact that a knockdown has on gameplay, you realize.

 

[Damn Polak]

Winning or losing is the only 'high' or 'low' points you should need.

really makes me think
in the current state of mb2 there is very little difference between winning a round and losing a round
at least on dotf, the republic cruiser is much better (with all these exposions and fade to white sequence for imp victory)
can something be done about this?