Basic Gameplay & Core Mechanics

[Magnøs]

This thread is mainly focused on the basic gameplay and the core mechanics which determine the overall characteristics of the game itself, however, it will also touch upon the visual aspect.

All proposed changes aimed at:

• Eliminating existing systemic breaks.
• Lowering barriers to entry the game, bringing it to the classic concept which is known as "easy to learn and difficult to master".
• Shifting players' attention from mechanical inputs to space of tactical decisions.
• Increasing comfort of perception of game situations.
• Improving gaming experience on the whole.

And based on the fundamental principles:

• Simplicity is about freedom from overcomplexity. Highly likely that a simple solution will be the most satisfactory one.
• Plausibility is about designing systems/mechanics/features that specifically feel appropriate to that particular game world/situation/place.
• Consistency is about organizing the game and its mechanics that it all works seamlessly together as logically as possible.

Movement:

Fix: Clone's/Arc's sprint affects walking/crouching speed while pressed.
Note: Uuuuuuuuur Ahhhhrrrrrr Uhrrrr Ahhhhrrrrrr Aaaarhg...​

Fix: Sporadic unexpected drops in movement speed when changing direction (walking/crouching/scoping).
Note: Affected: Soldier (without CC/if armed), Wookiee (without S3/if armed), Clone/ARC, Hero/BH (when scoping with PR/Disruptor).​

Fix: Backward walking animation.
Note: Unreasonably slow walking animation when moving back. However, if you are holding block as a Jedi/Sith, the animation speed changes to more appropriate.​

Change: Use common (the one that soldiers use) animation for quick-getup for all classes except Jedi/Sith.
Note: That magical flip-getup looks extremely bad for most of the classes. It is only about the visual part.​

Change: Movement speed according to movement methods: Run > Walk > Crouch.
Note: In the current build, if you just crouch, you will move faster than if you walk, and if you crouch+walk, you will move with the same speed as if you just walk. Also, crouching is always noiseless. It just doesn't look right.​

Change: Walk button no longer affects movement speed while crouching/blocking.
Note: As this feature does not have a positive effect on the gameplay, it should go away.​

Change: Slightly increase walking speed for all classes.
Note: In order to make walking faster than crouching.​

Change: Give the oppotunity to perform a roll-getup for all classes (expect SBD).
Note: In order to give players more control over their characters, what will positively affect the gameplay on the whole.​

Change: Jumps no longer drain BP, only FP.
Note: It looks that no BP regeneration and increased damage to BP on hit are fairly enough.​

Knockdown abilities:

Change: Can no longer slap during a swing (by analogy with Force powers).
Note: Such slaps negatively affect the gameplay and just look ridiculous.​

Change: Can no longer block saber swings during slap/slapping-getup (by analogy with Force powers).
Note: In order to make Slap require more skill and shift players' attention to other parts of the gameplay.​

Change: Knockdown abilities cause a knockback/stagger even when hitting someone that is blocking/crouching.
Note: Higher risk, higher reward. Fair enough.​

Sabering:

Change: Swings characteristics:

• Full swing: high damage, slow speed.
• Consecutive swing: low damage, high speed.
• Half swing: medium damage, medium speed.
• PB-Counter (Riposte): low damage, high speed, causes a stagger if not PB'ed.

Note: Interdependence between BP damage and speed. Combo breaking on PB-Counter. As for the ACM mechanic, it looks very well when players have to decide what is more important at the moment: to deal more damage in a single point of time, or to gain ACM faster.​

Change: BP Damage multipliers according to the character's state: Underfoot > Jumping/Flying > Running > Walking/Standing/Crouching.
Note: Previously, we have reduced the presence of knockdowns in the game and here we increase their potency. Knocking an opponent of his feet will be more rewarding than before. As for crouching, it needs no additional penalties such as increased damage to BP on hit, as no BP regeneration and reduced damage on attacks are more than enough.​

Change: Move BP drain for attacks from being based on button inputs to being flat drains based on stance.
Note: BP drains should be adjusted to fix the situation when players drain most of their BP by themselves.​

Change: Maximally reduce the difference in speed between swings within a stance.
Note: In order to make all swings within a stance equally useful.​

Change: Reduce the difference in speed between the stances (speed up Red, Purple; slow down Blue, Cyan, possibly White and Green).
Note: If you want to balance the stances according to each other without systemic breaks, this change is actually inevitable. Let's look briefly at the reasons for this state of affairs. The most skill-demanding and, at the same time, rewarding thing in the game is PB. The success of PB depends directly on the speed of an incoming swing. You can make an incredibly slow stance which would drain 90 BP on body hit, however, it would be the weakest one, simply because you would not achieve a single body hit, as all of your swings would be PB'ed even by a sleepy turtle, not to mention interrupts. You may try again and make a stance that would drain only 0.33 BP on body hit but would also be 12 times faster than current Blue. Probably, you already know which stance would be the strongest one. Thus, we have learned that we cannot balance a stance once the speed of its swings has reached a certain value. It can be either overpowered or underpowered. Now let's see what happens if we apply the proposed change and significantly reduce the difference in speed between the stances, so the fastest stance will be only 1.5 times faster than the slowest one. Some of you might say that it will kill the diversity. Oh, I don't thing so. Especially considering that you can find nothing but Yellow when it comes to competitive duels. Try to guess why. Even if we set Yellow's speed for all the stances, it will affect the gameplay only positively.​

Change: Speed up spin-swings to make them comparable with normal swings.
Note: In order to make them useful.​

Change: No movement speed reduction during spin-swings.
Note: In order to make them useful.​

Change: Add the ability to perform an unlimited number of swings in a chain until the first collision with a saber/body, then use regular limitations.
Note: This change will improve the gameplay without any negative consequences.​

Remove: Perfect Parry.
Note: Performing a PP is absolutely random. Moreover, it is completely useless. Nothing will change after it's gone.​

Remove: Instant Counter on successful MBlock.
Note: Unnecessary overcomplicated mechanic.​

Remove: Penalties on unsuccessful MBlock.
Note: MBlock is a skill-demanding technique and needs no additional statistical balancing.​

Change: Parrying with no BP will cause a stagger.
Note: In the current build, players have restrictions on comboing when reaching/having 0 BP. The proposed change is more elegant solution.​

Change: Reintroduce Semi-Perfect Block: decreases BP damage; works only if blocking (as Perfect Block).
Note: In order to reinforce the difference between players who try to PB and those who do not.​

Change: Slow down MBlock aninations.
Note: To make movements smoother in order to increase comfort of perception of a game situation.​

Change: Forbid to start a new MBlock animation until the previous ends.
Note: To prevent distractive visual spam in order to increase comfort of perception of a game situation.​

Change: Successful disarm resets ACM of the target.
Note: In order to increase the relevance of MBlock and Swingblock.​

Change: Swingblock no longer affects BP damage.
Note: Swingblock is a skill-demanding technique and needs no additional statistical balancing.​

Remove: All the saber perks.
Note: Due to significant changes in the core mechanics. New perks to replace the old. Or no perks at all.​

Other:

Change: Force-Lighting causes Flinch when hitting someone.
Note: Just an additional visual effect for Lightning's stun.​

Change: All successful projectile/saber hits cause Flinch.
Note: In fact, Flinch is nothing more but a pain animation. In accordance with the principle of Consistency, the question arises: why does Flinch appear only in a single special situation? If it is possible to make it appear without preventing players from shooting/using melee, it would be highly recommended. Although, having Flinch preventing from shooting/using melee may be interesting, it also might be an issue without a major rework of weapon accuracy.​

 

[Magnøs]

Aren't there methods for making the first swing more difficult to block? "Shadow swinging" or something?

Yes, there are. Nevertheless, some swings are still easier to PB than the others, so the problem still exists.

And except mandalorians. I can't imagine what nightmare of an opponent a rolling mando would be. Sounds questionable for multilife classes especially clonetroopers.

The counterargument is

I would say that the ability to perform a roll-getup should encompass multilifers as well, as there are other ways to achieve the desired effect. For example, we can adjust the time before the ability becomes available and also forbid to perform mid-air getups for certain classes.

This change will not affect the gameplay as much as it seems at first sight.

I agree with Achilles, jumping opponents are already a pain to catch and finish. And in general we should not return to base JA game mechanics.

Change: Jumps no longer drain BP, only FP.
Note: It looks that no BP regeneration and increased damage to BP on hit are fairly enough.

Why? It costs ya some BP, but not so much. It prevents spammy chickens like in classic JK multiplayer. For now it works how it should works: allows you to do acrobatics and doesn't allows to be spammy chicken.

Disagree. I remember we had such thing in previous patches, didn't work so well. It just gives more benefits to runners without any punishment. DO NOT WANT!

We have 2 types of jumps in the game: force jumps and non-force jumps, and there are some inconsistencies.
Referring to the definition, force jump is an ability of the Force that allows its user to leap huge distances. However, for an unknown reason, in the game Jedi/Sith are able to perform, in fact, force jumps without any FP cost by a short press of the jump button.
The point is to add FP cost for such jumps as well. It will improve plausibility, reestablish consistency. We just replace BP cost with FP cost.
Yes, it will affect the gameplay (mostly gunners vs jedi/sith aspect) but definitely not negatively.

Red style extremely OP against damage-based objectives.

Simple solution: add the ability to perform an unlimited number of swings in a chain until the first collision with a saber/body/anything that can be damaged by a saber, then use regular limitations.

IMO it's a very nice concept of combo-breaker. Cyan's perk should be shared among other styles.

Meaning that when two swings Perfect Parry each other, both players should always be combo-broken?

the first one who initiated the swing should be affected by stagger, the opponent - should not

Even with such changes, the main issue with Perfect Parry is still the same — it can be performed randomly on the phase of attack, which is bad for the gameplay for obvious reasons. Considering that PP is not an unique feature but a functional analog of PB, it is unreasonable to keep it up. It creates problems and brings nothing fundamentally new.

I personally disliked counters on PBlocks, they could be easily abused by defensive players. They staggered gameplay and made duels dull. The current counter on MBlock serves to finish off people after a successful disarm.

Agree except for pb-counter stagger. It sounds very dangerous and unbalanced. Also, it can drastically change gameplay, with this thing you basically encouraging everyone to stay still and wait until opponent lands a hit on you so that you could pb-counter it with stagger and start your own combo-wombo.

It is quite difficult to perform a PB, so you can barely abuse anything associated with it.
Currently it's possible to perform a counter even without a PB, which, as the tests have shown, has a negative effect on the gameplay.
Yes, there were some issues with instant PB-counters in the past but mostly because of their increased damage. Definitely not because of the combo breaking.
The current counter on successful MBlock is just unnessessary overcomplicated variant of PB-counter.
It is intended that a combo started with a PB-counter will deal less damage than a combo started with a normal full swing.
A stagger is a necessary visual effect. Nothing more.

Usual swings should have a reward for a substantial risk they have.

I agree with Hlev. Non-swingblock swings must deal more damage, either way everyone will be just spamming swingblocks, because there will be no point in using regular swings. It also killing the mblock system. Let the spammers risk more and whine about being disarmed later.

The counterargument is

The benefits of Swingblock are counterbalanced by the difficulty of its performing.
The benefits of MBlock (disarm) are counterbalanced by the difficulty of its performing and Swingblock.
Also, it makes sense to not swingblock in order to achieve better mobility.
However, if this sounds unconvincing, I would just note that there's no point to not PB, and by the time one learns to always PB, he becomes invulnerable to saber attacks. Should we buff common non-PB blocks on this point?

Is it not enough?

Disagree. Slap is unique and underrated skill only because it can immediately interrupt your swings. For me it definitely gives a positive affect on gameplay, because I like the idea, that if you're quick enough to realize that something went wrong and you made horrible mistake there is a chance for you to undo what shouldn't be done. Moreover with that feature you can trick your opponent and it can turn into a mind games, or SLAP GAMES. DO NOT WANT!

The counterargument is

You cannot block during Push, Pull, Lighting, Grip, Mind Trick, Speed, why should you be able to block during Slap?

We already have an abillity to cancel a swing with the reload button.
Slap games. Exactly. Does it look appropriate that in the game about lightsabers the most dangerous thing is a slap? Well, the answer is obvious. It is ridiculous.

Didn't get that. Are you implying that slap must cause knockback/stagger? If so what's that for? There is no risk at all in using slap with such feature.

In combination with other proposed changes to Slap it would work good. Higher risk, higher reward.

Disagree. This feature will kill comeback idea at all. The parrying is the only thing that gives hope on surviving being low on BP. Why would you want give more benefits to the winning side if he already has THE HIGH GROUND?

It will change nothing, as you already cannot parry with a combo when your BP is ≤ 0. It will affect only the visual part.

 

[Tempest]

I almost forgot I had this thread open. So much to catch up on....will edit in some thoughts and a mini-update on the state of things that I've worked on.

1) Instant counter on (just) PB
I think that the damage was the largest factor of why this was a problem. Another major part is how easily it could shift a duel via accidentally hitting a PB (see why PB combo breaking was removed for basically identical cause/effect).

2) Perfect Parry
While I think this does have some merits, its current incarnation allows for a lot of random behavior (especially in regards to Cyan's perk). I've refactored it a bit so that it will only trigger if you haven't scored a body hit yet within a chain.

3) Semi-pb
While the complete ripping out of semi-pb (amongst the other things) was warranted, I do acknowledge that all of the adjustments over-nerfed defensive play(styles). IMO, the in-return part of this was the only actually fitting/logical circumstance this should be happening and thus have reworked it to only trigger in that scenario (while holding block).

4) PB counter & parrying interaction
This is partially related to point #1 but PB counter doesn't need extreme speed to be a useful/valuable tool. The main issue its had with the speed loss is how bad parrying is designed in that you can put the skill into getting the PB and earning the extra damage and then having that completely nullified but someone just randomly flailing about (this is also a huge issue in low BP parrying and how difficult it is to keep it as a tool to be utilized without making it a get out of jail free card by jumping/spamming when in danger).

That said, I did a lot of discussing/examining different options and decided on simply making parries a small percentage of damage that's calculated in the same manner as body hit damage is (this means that ACM is factored into the damage; see my upcoming point about some adjustments to ACM before feeling the triggering of the 1.4.3 parrying). It's currently at 5% for all styles except Red, which does 15%.

5) Adjusting swing speeds within a style
This is something I've considered (pretty much solely for Red) but haven't gotten around to experimenting with yet. It's definitely on the table for down the road.

6) Disarm resetting ACM
While I see the reasoning for this, I don't think it's really necessary/nor will be needed in the future (at least as a baseline mechanic).

7) Slap
I personally think that Slap is in a weird place. It's either basically useless or extremely strong. I've thought of a couple ideas (like increasing the cooldown, making it have further knockback vs someone that's blocking) but have been focused on other things. However, I have made it so that slapping = you don't get to do damage/cause parries/etc. That's one of the most annoying buggy behaviors of sabering so I didn't want to let it persist any longer than it has.

8) ACM
ACM. Of the various binary mechanics, this has probably been the least broken of them. Meant to be a measure of gaining momentum/winning a duel, it does actually function how it's meant to (for the most part). The problems come in when you realize that it's an arbitrary damage boost that can remain in play even in the case of something like no longer fighting someone, going off to the other side of the map and doing random stuff, and then coming back while still having X amount of additional damage. To rectify this, I've made it so that both saberists' ACM plays a factor into the damage modifier. There's also very minor weighting based on the styles involved (similar to how the current parrying tier base damage is designed) to assist in fine tuning the balance for fast vs slower styles.

9) Mblock/combo breaking
I don't think there's much to be said about this although due to some technicalities I've unearthed in my digging through the abyss of saber code, it's likely that only Red will actually have a full on stagger in regards to any combo breaking mechanics. Others will play the block animations (currently the way that combo breaking is done in a majority of cases basically just involves setting the swing count higher than any of the styles are allowed but it's a bit inconsistent). This'll make it a bit more fluid both in terms of visuals as well as feel (getting staggered is just all sorts of clunkiness).

10) Forced block animations
This is something I've only recently been looking at in-depth but have concluded is part of both some weird visual issues as well as actually significant impacts on gameplay. In a nutshell (for those that I haven't explained/shown this to before), when you're hit at any point, unless the hit is from a parry, you play a blocking animation. Seems harmless, right? WRONG. This is what is making Blue (and pretty much everything when it comes to using Red) such a nightmare (also the whole swing drain stuff not working quite as it should). This is what's breaking the ability to rollstab when you're hit. This is what throws everything off when you get hit while rolling/slapping and are trying to do an attack right afterward. The list goes on. I've adjusted when these blocking animations occur to only be playing in ready states (i.e. when you're sitting and blocking), when you truly get interrupted, and when you're not in a slap or have the PB counter damage increase while in an attack (so that you can still do counters off of being hit after you've hit someone). Probably will do some further tuning but that's how it is currently.

11) Freedom of swings/directional restrictions
This is something that I've been on the fence about (both in general as well as in regards to a handful of variations of design). While I like the ability to freely chain from any direction, I do believe/have observed that there's some cases where it's basically impossible to defend in. That said, I don't think slowing down the chaining speeds will be healthy for sabering. However, I am leaning towards making some chains non-instant (probably the combos that we weren't able to before but now can). With that done, I think things would be in a pretty good spot.

 

[S o l d i e r]

5) Adjusting swing speeds within a style
This is something I've considered (pretty much solely for Red) but haven't gotten around to experimenting with yet. It's definitely on the table for down the road.

Don't make it faster. We need a slower, different saber style that plays differently, and not another purple or something that's like all other styles and plays like everything else. That would be damaging to the diversity. The balancing of it can be done through other means.

 

[Stassin]

10) Forced block animations
This is something I've only recently been looking at in-depth but have concluded is part of both some weird visual issues as well as actually significant impacts on gameplay. In a nutshell (for those that I haven't explained/shown this to before), when you're hit at any point, unless the hit is from a parry, you play a blocking animation. Seems harmless, right? WRONG. This is what is making Blue (and pretty much everything when it comes to using Red) such a nightmare (also the whole swing drain stuff not working quite as it should). This is what's breaking the ability to rollstab when you're hit. This is what throws everything off when you get hit while rolling/slapping and are trying to do an attack right afterward. The list goes on. I've adjusted when these blocking animations occur to only be playing in ready states (i.e. when you're sitting and blocking), when you truly get interrupted, and when you're not in a slap or have the PB counter damage increase while in an attack (so that you can still do counters off of being hit after you've hit someone). Probably will do some further tuning but that's how it is currently.

Seems like a big case of bug which you are getting around by removing the feature in problematic cases, rather than fixing the bugs themselves. I thought your priority was precisely not to use work arounds, and actually fix bugs. So please do, and don't remove the blocks. In the past in v0, no blocking animations were ever played (just the nudging animation...), i'm pretty sure it is a plain improvement for them to be. In terms of gameplay, it also meant a swing wasn't even interrupted in the past, while now it is and you can do a counter off of it, just like you could in RC1. Plain improvement, given all the feedback urging to bring interruptions back in pre-v1.4.

8) ACM
ACM. Of the various binary mechanics, this has probably been the least broken of them. Meant to be a measure of gaining momentum/winning a duel, it does actually function how it's meant to (for the most part). The problems come in when you realize that it's an arbitrary damage boost that can remain in play even in the case of something like no longer fighting someone, going off to the other side of the map and doing random stuff, and then coming back while still having X amount of additional damage. To rectify this, I've made it so that both saberists' ACM plays a factor into the damage modifier. There's also very minor weighting based on the styles involved (similar to how the current parrying tier base damage is designed) to assist in fine tuning the balance for fast vs slower styles.

It's not very clear what you mean with "both saberists' ACM plays a factor" but if the main goal was to prevent keeping ACM against a given enemy player forever, then i'm pretty sure you've done the appropriate thing a long time ago, just making it decrease after 30s of inactivity against that player.

1) Instant counter on (just) PB
I think that the damage was the largest factor of why this was a problem. Another major part is how easily it could shift a duel via accidentally hitting a PB (see why PB combo breaking was removed for basically identical cause/effect).

Yes, the damage was a problem, the stacking with yellow's old ACM perk on PB as well. So it just needs to be a faster swing on full PB, no additional damage. And not just on mblocking swingblocks, that barely ever happens. This feature on every full PB is amazing for changing pace in a duel and quickly making it dynamic, it just needed to be nerfed not removed.

2) Perfect Parry
While I think this does have some merits, its current incarnation allows for a lot of random behavior (especially in regards to Cyan's perk). I've refactored it a bit so that it will only trigger if you haven't scored a body hit yet within a chain.

Like you say, its occurrence is completely random as it's literally impossible to consistently do on purpose even with cyan's first swings, so instead of adding more complicated requirements for it which will make it appear like it occurs even more completely arbitrarily, you should just go ahead and remove that feature.

3) Semi-pb
While the complete ripping out of semi-pb (amongst the other things) was warranted, I do acknowledge that all of the adjustments over-nerfed defensive play(styles). IMO, the in-return part of this was the only actually fitting/logical circumstance this should be happening and thus have reworked it to only trigger in that scenario (while holding block).

Semi-PB is completely necessary to reduce the power of waiting for the opponent to attack first to try and interrupt him or get the last swing, and thus help with attacking first, and in particular with using halfswings and swings in the air to start an engagement. Without semi-PB, you are completely vulnerable whenever you start attacking first, and also whenever you use halfswings. The issue was that it negated all BP drain like full-PB, it just needs to be weaker.

4) PB counter & parrying interaction
This is partially related to point #1 but PB counter doesn't need extreme speed to be a useful/valuable tool. The main issue its had with the speed loss is how bad parrying is designed in that you can put the skill into getting the PB and earning the extra damage and then having that completely nullified but someone just randomly flailing about (this is also a huge issue in low BP parrying and how difficult it is to keep it as a tool to be utilized without making it a get out of jail free card by jumping/spamming when in danger).

That said, I did a lot of discussing/examining different options and decided on simply making parries a small percentage of damage that's calculated in the same manner as body hit damage is (this means that ACM is factored into the damage; see my upcoming point about some adjustments to ACM before feeling the triggering of the 1.4.3 parrying). It's currently at 5% for all styles except Red, which does 15%.

That's nice to hear. So you are making it like 1.4.3 but with reduced damage which was what it needed (supposing that parries as a mechanic remain the same as now, as opposed to v0). But i know you hate parry spam so you should really try more like 20% and reduce it if it's too large. 5% means basically 1BP drain for pretty much all styles when you have zero or small ACM, that's a little ridiculous.

5) Adjusting swing speeds within a style
This is something I've considered (pretty much solely for Red) but haven't gotten around to experimenting with yet. It's definitely on the table for down the road.

I'll be okay with it if it's basically just for Red, and maybe Staff too.

6) Disarm resetting ACM
While I see the reasoning for this, I don't think it's really necessary/nor will be needed in the future (at least as a baseline mechanic).

It isn't needed nor any good, it's just some reminiscing from old players because before, all ACM was lost as soon as the saber was turned off, even manually.

7) Slap
I personally think that Slap is in a weird place. It's either basically useless or extremely strong. I've thought of a couple ideas (like increasing the cooldown, making it have further knockback vs someone that's blocking) but have been focused on other things. However, I have made it so that slapping = you don't get to do damage/cause parries/etc. That's one of the most annoying buggy behaviors of sabering so I didn't want to let it persist any longer than it has.

Don't think that is necessary at all. You already have jumpkicks for further knockback. Not sure what you mean about slap being buggy with parries.

9) Mblock/combo breaking
I don't think there's much to be said about this although due to some technicalities I've unearthed in my digging through the abyss of saber code, it's likely that only Red will actually have a full on stagger in regards to any combo breaking mechanics. Others will play the block animations (currently the way that combo breaking is done in a majority of cases basically just involves setting the swing count higher than any of the styles are allowed but it's a bit inconsistent). This'll make it a bit more fluid both in terms of visuals as well as feel (getting staggered is just all sorts of clunkiness).

Again not sure what you mean with it being inconsistent (probably has to do with you wanting to remove limited chains, so in that case it may cause problems... but you shouldn't do that anyways, limited chains are great to give rhythm to sabering and you have more than enough freedom with 3+ max swings in a chain - 2 is pretty limited though, but you removed that). No styles combo-break anymore apart from red stagger, since PB combo-breaking was removed in 1.4.3, so i can only assume you mean to remove combo-breaking when people have 0 BP, which you absolutely shouldn't. And if you think about it, with sufficient parry damage based on bodyhit damage, maybe red wouldn't even need a combo-break anymore, yes ?

11) Freedom of swings/directional restrictions
This is something that I've been on the fence about (both in general as well as in regards to a handful of variations of design). While I like the ability to freely chain from any direction, I do believe/have observed that there's some cases where it's basically impossible to defend in. That said, I don't think slowing down the chaining speeds will be healthy for sabering. However, I am leaning towards making some chains non-instant (probably the combos that we weren't able to before but now can). With that done, I think things would be in a pretty good spot.

You could go the simple way and just reintroduce directional chaining restrictions for all styles, with a few exceptions. For example, make all styles able to chain within 2 quadrants instead of the current 1 quadrant, with the exception of red (3 quadrants, like in the past), and maybe some others. Cyan - 3 quadrants to make its chaining weaker since its main strength is its first swings anyways; Purple - 1 quadrant to make it harder to PB; Duals - 1 quadrant too, as it's supposed to be a chaotic, offensive style.

 

[Tempest]

Don't make it faster. We need a slower, different saber style that plays differently, and not another purple or something that's like all other styles and plays like everything else. That would be damaging to the diversity. The balancing of it can be done through other means.

I wasn't meaning to imply I was thinking of speeding up all of its swings or anything.

Seems like a big case of bug which you are getting around by removing the feature in problematic cases, rather than fixing the bugs themselves. I thought your priority was precisely not to use work arounds, and actually fix bugs. So please do, and don't remove the blocks. In the past in v0, no blocking animations were ever played (just the nudging animation...), i'm pretty sure it is a plain improvement for them to be. In terms of gameplay, it also meant a swing wasn't even interrupted in the past, while now it is and you can do a counter off of it, just like you could in RC1. Plain improvement, given all the feedback urging to bring interruptions back in pre-v1.4.

I believe it's something to do with having the block animation played not actually canceling/resetting your actions at the time of it triggering. So if you get hit while you're in a swing, it pauses the swing, plays the block, then resumes/tries to pick a sabermove from that point and whatnot. That's what it seems like based on observation anyway. I'm also not planning to remove the blocks entirely and didn't mean for it to come off that way (that's why I listed out when they would(n't) be played).

It's not very clear what you mean with "both saberists' ACM plays a factor" but if the main goal was to prevent keeping ACM against a given enemy player forever, then i'm pretty sure you've done the appropriate thing a long time ago, just making it decrease after 30s of inactivity against that player.

The ACM reduction timer was something that I threw together a long time ago but it was poorly written and caused server crashing. I can explain more about the ACM stuff on here if requested or we can discuss it in dev chat.

Yes, the damage was a problem, the stacking with yellow's old ACM perk on PB as well. So it just needs to be a faster swing on full PB, no additional damage. And not just on mblocking swingblocks, that barely ever happens. This feature on every full PB is amazing for changing pace in a duel and quickly making it dynamic, it just needed to be nerfed not removed.

If it was a speed between the instant attack and current counter then that would be worth considering (if keeping extra damage). Might try some variations with the fast swing with no extra damage though just to see how it plays out.

Like you say, its occurrence is completely random as it's literally impossible to consistently do on purpose even with cyan's first swings, so instead of adding more complicated requirements for it which will make it appear like it occurs even more completely arbitrarily, you should just go ahead and remove that feature.

It's definitely possible to do it intentionally on the first swing (at least if you are good at reading your opponent). During actual combos it's almost completely unrealistic outside of a scenario where your opponent isn't extremely repetitive.

Semi-PB is completely necessary to reduce the power of waiting for the opponent to attack first to try and interrupt him or get the last swing, and thus help with attacking first, and in particular with using halfswings and swings in the air to start an engagement. Without semi-PB, you are completely vulnerable whenever you start attacking first, and also whenever you use halfswings. The issue was that it negated all BP drain like full-PB, it just needs to be weaker.

This is more of an issue with knowing the limitations/strengths of the styles involved. If you're using Red vs Blue, you're very likely going to be getting interrupted if you're trying to constantly facehug. There shouldn't be some arbitrary mechanic to remove that.

That's nice to hear. So you are making it like 1.4.3 but with reduced damage which was what it needed (supposing that parries as a mechanic remain the same as now, as opposed to v0). But i know you hate parry spam so you should really try more like 20% and reduce it if it's too large. 5% means basically 1BP drain for pretty much all styles when you have zero or small ACM, that's a little ridiculous.

It's definitely more than 1 BP. I already tested it a bit and Red vs Yellow was 5 BP on a parry without any ACM being involved (given that was with a slightly higher damage multiplier but still).

I'll be okay with it if it's basically just for Red, and maybe Staff too.

I'm not 100% sure on how I'd go about doing this for Red but I may have already gotten this handled for Staff with the unused chaining transition stuff that's on the shelf currently.

Don't think that is necessary at all. You already have jumpkicks for further knockback. Not sure what you mean about slap being buggy with parries.

Swing -> slap right as you start/hit the swing -> you'll get a hit + get the slap effects + generally get another hit before the slap finishes.

Again not sure what you mean with it being inconsistent (probably has to do with you wanting to remove limited chains, so in that case it may cause problems... but you shouldn't do that anyways, limited chains are great to give rhythm to sabering and you have more than enough freedom with 3+ max swings in a chain - 2 is pretty limited though, but you removed that). No styles combo-break anymore apart from red stagger, since PB combo-breaking was removed in 1.4.3, so i can only assume you mean to remove combo-breaking when people have 0 BP, which you absolutely shouldn't. And if you think about it, with sufficient parry damage based on bodyhit damage, maybe red wouldn't even need a combo-break anymore, yes ?

See what I mentioned before about the blocking. Also I've never said I wanted to remove limited chains (unless you mean that you can only ever do X amount of swings in a row at any given time from your first swing then yes, that is something I've talked about). Also not sure where you got that I was intending to remove combo breaking. I said that I was going to have it so only Red cause a stagger among anything that caused combo breaking (i.e. Mblock).

You could go the simple way and just reintroduce directional chaining restrictions for all styles, with a few exceptions. For example, make all styles able to chain within 2 quadrants instead of the current 1 quadrant, with the exception of red (3 quadrants, like in the past), and maybe some others. Cyan - 3 quadrants to make its chaining weaker since its main strength is its first swings anyways; Purple - 1 quadrant to make it harder to PB; Duals - 1 quadrant too, as it's supposed to be a chaotic, offensive style.

I'm not quite sure I understood what you meant by "within _ quadrants". To clarify on what I was trying to explain though:
We used to have instant chaining between limited directions. This behavior would come back in regards to which directions can have instant chaining between them. On the other hand, if you were trying to chain from one move to another that didn't fall into that criteria, you'd get normal/slower transitions (that way you can still chain whatever way you want but there'd be choices for what timing you had available as an attacker as well as a reasonable expectation of what was coming as a defender).

 

[norad]

@Tempest

when can we expect to see a formal update (similar to the 1.4.5 beta notes) on what youre working on and further direction for sabering?

I am just interested to see where we're going

 

[Hexodious]

With slap, I would like for the slap user took increased damage (or further increased damage if its already there) during the animation so it had a bit more thought in its use.

Granted its already better to already think about it if you are min-maxing, but I don't think there is enough of a gap between just throwing a 'maybe' slap into the middle of your combo. It just doesn't hurt enough when you mess up.

Edit: Agreed with what Tempest said about slaps mid combo still causing a full hits worth of saber damage. Make it cancel the damage of that swing when you slap.

Apart from slap, here are some very general things I'd like to see:
- Heavier damages across the board, similar to the open beta. Especially from an open mode perspective.
- Cyan perfect parry counter only working on the first swing (which I guess you already addressed with perfect parry only working on first hit in combo).

 

[noel]

My change that I am trying to push for with regards to jumping is to make non-force jumps not drain BP. I think fully removing BP drain from jumps is kind of going overboard. The main purpose of jumps in dueling for me is to get a good opener for an exchange and make that opening attack much harder to PB. Having to pay a chunk of BP every time u do a short jump is a bit bad. Though I personally wouldn't mind if this extended to all jumps, making jumps BP free. For me the main thing would be making non-force jumps cost no BP, but I can also dig no BP cost on all jumps to a certain extent even though it will have a few minor and probably neglible effects on gameplay.

As for the slap changes. The first one, not being able to slap during a swing, very interesting change. I'd be interested in seeing how that would affect gameplay. We have feints now to cancel swings. Also I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of utility returning to +use kicks since the input is harder. Perhaps same restriction for them as you suggest for slap + a short stagger upon impact? And keep slap as it is currently? That way you distinguish between use kicks and normal slaps and both have a purpose, I suppose.

Not being able to block during a slap, hell no. Bad change. Taking more BP damage might be an option though.
About the stagger, it should be on +use kicks if they have the 'can't be used in swing' restriction. And it should be more of a flinch than a stagger. It would be interesting to see how that will affect the game. TBH though, only thing so far for me is the BP jump change. The slap change is a question mark, a maybe, for me. A 'let's give it a try in testing' kind of suggestion.

The idea might seem sensible on the surface. But personally I think that swinging a lightsaber slowly = more damage is an utterly retarded idea. In real life the faster you swing the better that swing is. Gameplay wise it works out better though, but still... Also, having slow starter attacks is very problematic since we still have Mblock combo breaking and fast countering. The first swing needs to be difficult to block, otherwise sabering turns into utter cancer. Nudge was a sort of blanket fix to many issues and this first swing issue is one of them.

I think we should have normal halfswings in all directions, and fast halfswings (old style) in restricted directions, for poking and weaving in through combos for momentum etc, it works extremely well that way, trust me. It's like nudge but without all the annoying things associated with it (in a sense).
​

I agree with the first change, if slapping is harder to accomplish it needs more rewards in the form of increased dmg. I think Jumping and running should be on the same level for simplicity's sake, and walking/standing/crouching aswell.

However, flat drains present problems. The biggest one being this. Flat drains based on stance. Say your stance does 10 BP damage but drains 8 per attack. Not only does attacking become a bad idea, it becomes self defeating. It is also problematic with regards to combos dealing less damage. So comboing = raping your own BP. If it's reduced to 10 BP dmg, 5 BP drain. it is still problematic but less so. There is still too much of a risk to attacking. The system where you just tap vs hold is flat out better due to a few things. Number 1 it rewards mechanical skill, number 2 it does away with the problematic dissincentivization of attacking that comes with noticable flat drains. If flat drains are reduced to a point where they don't matter, then it becomes a worse version of the tap/hold. I don't think its possible to strike a balance that is satisfactory here. I say lets not try to fix what isn't broken. Tap hold worked for over 10 years and a better alternative has yet to be found. Only ppl who don't understand sabering can argue vehemently agaisnt this...



Agree with the first one. Nothing to add there.
The second one aswell. I have been making similar arguments. I think that stances should be closer to each other in speed and be differentiated by animations, perks, BP dmg vs Defense and so on. Cyan for example would be a million times better at yellow speeds and I have been trying to get ppl to understand this for a long time. But a few ppl want a lightning fast insta hit stance because they have a parrying fetish *Cough* Achilles *Cough* It's totally not cause insta swings are easy to play with and generally OP. It's so I can elegantly parry instead of using mouse aim skill and PB. lul.

Spin swings can gtfo, they look retarded in general.

Chaining. Well... I know a certain chaining system of which I approve. Should be in the game. Your suggestion is a bit off the rails though. It should be more like you're earning extra swings in the chain by weaving in halfswings or something to that effect.



I agree that PP is a rather stupid mechanic in general. A parry should just be a parry. Its introduction seems nearly pointless and just floods the game with something unnecessary that has nearly no practical utility.

I like insta counter on Mblock to ensure kills after I mblock someone, esp with heavy stances. Reluctant to remove. However, removing it has merit aswell since it will make first attacks easier cuz less fear of shitty insta counter. I am on the fence. Atm, I wanna keep it for now because its a skill based mechanic.

Also don't mind removing penalties on Mblock. Takes skill to perform, should increase CD from 1 sec to 2 sec maybe, but that's it.



No BP parries just combo break. I don't want them to stagger and be auto gg. Semi-PB should be in returns only, not while walking, running etc. Only on returns. So I agree with your change. Aka when holding block u can semi PB.

The thing about Mblock anims and block anims in general is that they lock you out of the game and restrict your inputs. Having them be slow might be good visually, but I question whether it would improve the feeling of the game. Might prove to be fatally crap since you'd be stuck in a slow-ass mblock anim and unable to do anything for its duration. No thanks.

About ACM. I think how it is currently, is atrociously bad. ACM affecting the global AP multiplier leads to inconsistent and unpredictable BP damages and forces the duelists to play a certain way to optimize ACM and not BP drain. ACM is a mechanic that greatly overcomplicates the system in a bad way. I propose to remove it from the global modifier so that all swings deal the same BP damage baseline and aren't constantly affected by an invisible and everchanging modifier nobody can know or guess at really. The way ACM worked originally was that once you reached say +7 bodyhits more than your opponent, you'd get a substantial damage boost. If you dip below +7 to +6, you lose all the damage boost. Go above again and u gain back the huge dmg boost. This was there to enable skilled players to end onesided duels more quickly and worked decently well. Going back to a system like that, where ACM only starts affecting the global AP after reaching a huge difference, is one option. The other is radical and I love the idea. Here it is.

ACM HP drains. Weave it into every aspect of the game. PBs regenerate small HP, bodyhits drain small HP. All dependant on ACM and ACM diff between players, but nothing radical. If HP drain is introduced this way again like it was in old builds, we can put heal back into the game for jedi and make speed a neutral force power. Alternatively, can keep speed as jedi exclusive and give sith side force drain (strictly HP drains). So we get 2 new forcepowers to do with HP, and a HP dependant ACM momentum system where PBs help you regen HP. Potential for much skill and also serves the purpose of momentum. In addition it would have interesting implications for open mode.

If you're less radically inclined, go for the old ACC ACM style idea instead. Or just have ACM be strictly for special attacks such as blue lunge, but the main thing is having it so ACM does NOT affect global AP. Just raise global AP somewhat to compensate, so we can have quicker duels in general esp in open mode. Big problem with 1.4 and builds after it was slow duels vs noobs. It was hard to quickly kill someone. Back in older builds I could destroy someone very quickly with nudged red for example, and move on. Open mode 1v1 could last like 5 sec and I could move on. And I could have 5 min duels with skilled players. A system with such flexibility in dueling speed is preferable to some obscure ACM dependant phantom ever adjusting BP drain math behind the scenes crap that encourages ppl to hit and run and not fight like (wo)men and try to drain BP as quickly as possible. There is beauty in simplicity here. Clean BP drains, higher BP drains. Less obscure ACM crap ++profit.

AND YES. HELL YES. Swingblocks should not deal less dmg than non-swingblocks. I have said it for years. Swingblocking requires much more skill than non-swingblocks. Why the hell should I be punished with lower BP damage? And some m1 holding noob can deal more BP damage than me because he can't play properly? It's retarded. If anything it should be reversed, or atleast evened out.

And yeah, perks need to be looked at aswell.




Your suggestions may be interesting. For a flinch rework, I would maybe have flinch only on slower, high damage weapons like pistol 3 and Big bertha (t-21) primary, or e-11 primary and EE-3/Westars/arc pistols etc. But not on smth like CR3 and SBD lazer. Or have things like CR3 take 2 bullets to flinch or smth. In general though I think how flinch works currently is pretty good. My issue is with FP drains and FP regen. (I want higher FP drains and Higher FP regen and removed/adjusted FP debuff on being shot down to 0.5 sec, but pref having it removed)

Agree with literally everything on here, especially about swingblock damage and slapping

also stassin made some good points

 

[Tempest]

@Tempest

when can we expect to see a formal update (similar to the 1.4.5 beta notes) on what youre working on and further direction for sabering?

I am just interested to see where we're going

After next patch.

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

Ok....then...

Imagine a world...a game...a mod....without slap.

Dun dun dun!

It ruined dueling when it was implemented!

 

[Garth]

So there is one thing, I definitly don't understand here...

Why is Magnos not in the dev team already !? His planned changes are worth the one of a gamedesigner ! And currently what is we lack the most (Above all, and don't say pink saber) We lack a TRUE Gamedesign.

If my word has meaning for anyone, please consider taking Magnos's word as it is, do the changes, it's really good. It will bring more entertainment to the game. Right now there is more complaint than congratulation.

Sorry if it's often taken as exemple: But Mount & Blade Warband is a very good one. When you fight somebody, and you lost. You will respect him because you know 100% the game is reliable, fair, easy to understand but hard to master. Even if you can have some anger issue (We all had eh) It's still a very balanced game. Because most of the gameplay mechanics are used in a good way.


Right now my biggest concern (I'll only speak for duel) is the HUGE abuse you can do with Halfswing/Slap. It completly cancel the skill part of a duel in my oppinion. Make that the slap is less easy to use, but more rewarding (Like M&B:Warband's kick). Change or even remove halfswinging, (Or rework the animations) Right now it look like a huge mess, and favorise so much the fast styles over the slow one.

In order to not die in two hit you will be FORCED to learn how to PB, (Just like in M&B:Warband if you can't block, you die instantly, you learn the hard way) PB can be ignored totaly right now, just with slapping and halfswinging, and add abit of running to that, you'll be very good already. (Not top tiers but enough annoying to win most of your fight)

I encourage the dev to listen to Magnos, he have well understood the mechanics that rules this game/mod and he's willing to bring his attention as gamedesigner. Do not (You dev) add only what you like, try to be objective as much as possible.

That's all I hope i didn't gave you an headache with my english. And if i did atleast you leave with something more than when you arrived.

 

[noel]

So there is one thing, I definitly don't understand here...

Why is Magnos not in the dev team already !? His planned changes are worth the one of a gamedesigner ! And currently what is we lack the most (Above all, and don't say pink saber) We lack a TRUE Gamedesign.

If my word has meaning for anyone, please consider taking Magnos's word as it is, do the changes, it's really good. It will bring more entertainment to the game. Right now there is more complaint than congratulation.

Sorry if it's often taken as exemple: But Mount & Blade Warband is a very good one. When you fight somebody, and you lost. You will respect him because you know 100% the game is reliable, fair, easy to understand but hard to master. Even if you can have some anger issue (We all had eh) It's still a very balanced game. Because most of the gameplay mechanics are used in a good way.


Right now my biggest concern (I'll only speak for duel) is the HUGE abuse you can do with Halfswing/Slap. It completly cancel the skill part of a duel in my oppinion. Make that the slap is less easy to use, but more rewarding (Like M&B:Warband's kick). Change or even remove halfswinging, (Or rework the animations) Right now it look like a huge mess, and favorise so much the fast styles over the slow one.

In order to not die in two hit you will be FORCED to learn how to PB, (Just like in M&B:Warband if you can't block, you die instantly, you learn the hard way) PB can be ignored totaly right now, just with slapping and halfswinging, and add abit of running to that, you'll be very good already. (Not top tiers but enough annoying to win most of your fight)

I encourage the dev to listen to Magnos, he have well understood the mechanics that rules this game/mod and he's willing to bring his attention as gamedesigner. Do not (You dev) add only what you like, try to be objective as much as possible.

That's all I hope i didn't gave you an headache with my english. And if i did atleast you leave with something more than when you arrived.

You have to recognize that only 10ish people have displayed that they actually want the changes that he's said.

I for one don't want at least 50% of the changes he's suggested, I think some of it is good but I agree more with what Sev said, and Achilles and others have shown that they don't necessarily agree with everything either.

You can't please everyone but I think a lot of these changes are a bit too much

 

[Magnøs]

Just a quick reminder that moving crouched still remains to be faster than walking.

Not if anything to say about it I have…

 

[Dashade12]

Don't make it faster. We need a slower, different saber style that plays differently, and not another purple or something that's like all other styles and plays like everything else. That would be damaging to the diversity. The balancing of it can be done through other means.

Well at this point there is very little diversity. I mean I have been playing only two years. but 90% of people use yellow. swing speed is a good place to start. bring the style closer together. it don't matter how much dam. a style does if its so slow. it get pb or counter. Same goes with fast having to hit 30 time. speed first then Dam, Def, Reach, and so on. the fact is this game has the least diversity of any fighting game. i have ever played. but right now the disadvantage for not using yellow is huge.

 

[eShuma]

Just a quick reminder that moving crouched still remains to be faster than walking.

Not if anything to say about it I have…

Happy 5 year anniversary since your op