Are devs overcomplicating the saber system?

[DaloLorn]

To me this is really weird, because you seem to conceive of learning as gaining like 40-50% mastery over a skill,

I'd say more like 10-20% - in any case, enough that you can occasionally execute it in combat even if you can't make it do anything useful. The remaining 80% then deals with issues like reliable reproduction and capitalizing on the ability.

Sticking with mblocks for the purposes of the discussion, I can occasionally mblock some of the more predictable opponents (usually if they do a WA swing, they're what I'm best at PBing, doubly so for mblocking), but I will not always manage to take advantage of the subsequent disarm. So, by my criteria, I have learned or almost learned how to mblock, and will soon be able to start down the long road to mastering it.

With regards to Mblock, I think that when someone has learned the directions and managed to pull of a succesful Mblock, he has learned to Mblock.

I might perhaps agree with you, except mblocking outside of a controlled environment is a lot harder than doing so in a controlled environment - and seeing as the end goal is to actually get combat use out of it, and I'm (perhaps wrongly) skipping the theoretical aspect altogether because I assume that most people will inevitably gravitate towards guides and stuff before beginning any useful training (when they don't, I'm expecting that it's because someone is teaching them personally), then... I forgot what I was going to finish this sentence with.

 

[SeV]

I'd say more like 10-20% - in any case, enough that you can occasionally execute it in combat even if you can't make it do anything useful. The remaining 80% then deals with issues like reliable reproduction and capitalizing on the ability.

Sticking with mblocks for the purposes of the discussion, I can occasionally mblock some of the more predictable opponents (usually if they do a WA swing, they're what I'm best at PBing, doubly so for mblocking), but I will not always manage to take advantage of the subsequent disarm. So, by my criteria, I have learned or almost learned how to mblock, and will soon be able to start down the long road to mastering it.



I might perhaps agree with you, except mblocking outside of a controlled environment is a lot harder than doing so in a controlled environment - and seeing as the end goal is to actually get combat use out of it, and I'm (perhaps wrongly) skipping the theoretical aspect altogether because I assume that most people will inevitably gravitate towards guides and stuff before beginning any useful training (when they don't, I'm expecting that it's because someone is teaching them personally), then... I forgot what I was going to finish this sentence with.

I just thought of a good way to describe what I mean. I was unable to articulate it earlier because I found the concept you threw at me quite weird tbh.
So, to me learning and mastery are two different things. First you learn the skill, which then allows you to begin walking the long road to mastery.

However, you seem to view it slightly differently. Instead of learning being simply picking up the skill, you define having learned something as having achieved a certain level of mastery over the skill. Basically that learning is an early stage on the 'mastery' scale.

In contrast to that, I see learning as outside of the scale. Or like climbing onto the first step of a stairway, which proves you capable of ascending the stairway. You on the other hand seem to want to define having learned something as taking several steps up the stairway and perhaps reaching the first floor. If that makes sense... lul.

Anyway, this is such discuss, much derail

 

[----Kas----]

Well, if I may add something...

First of all, skill is applied knowledge. You may have knowledge of something but if you can't use it when it's needed you have no skill. It goes with martial arts, olimpic weightlifting, any other sport etc. also with mbII and that is why this game is so good.

Secondly, my advice for Dalo would be: Stop thinking about when/how mblock the opponent. Just do it. Do it, and do it, and try and try and try etc. Every pblock = mblock. After couple of weeks you will realize that you can do it whenever you want.

Message to everyone:
When it comes to learning how to swingblock / tap attack: Create your own game, load map mb2_training and imagine one 4 hit combo and try to perform it on the training droids. First, try to do 1 swingblocked attack, then 2 swingblocked attacks. If you fail, repeat whole sequence. When you master 2 swingblocked/tappped hit combo, go for 3 hit combo. When you are done with 3 hit combo, try to swingblock/tap 4 hit combo. I told many people about this method but they were too lazy to actually spend some and do it. Instead they keep whining about getting constantly mblocked. Everytime I join the game there is some idiot who accuses me of cheating and decides to teamkill me :| Really, people, please, LEARN.

And going back to the system... It's really a bad feeling when I have to kill my own bp in order to defeat an unexperienced saberist quickly. In most cases mblock is faster, which is getting a little boring to be honest. Why are we forced to mblock if we want to kill quickly? I think bringing back the old tapping system might be a good idea.

 

[DaloLorn]

Eh, the way I remember it, 1.4.5's swing damage is such that you should be capable of much more easily overpowering an unexperienced saberist.

 

[Tempest]

Things aren't going to be quite the same as they were in the first open beta. I've done quite a bit of revamping (especially for swing drains and general damage) based on feedback and lots of discussion. I'll be adding comments to the more prominent changes explaining, at minimum, how they now work so that there's no confusion moving forward.

P.S. I'm basically 99.998% done so I don't expect it'll be too long until OB#2 is ready to be rolled out

 

[Revanic]

What if BP drained only if you missed / were pblocked? A successful hit on your opponent wouldnt drain your bp unless they pblocked it. Though it wouldn't discourage spam, unless they were spamming and missing.

 

[----Kas----]

What if BP drained only if you missed / were pblocked? A successful hit on your opponent wouldnt drain your bp unless they pblocked it. Though it wouldn't discourage spam, unless they were spamming and missing.

... no comment

 

[pelmeņu lauks]

What if BP drained only if you missed / were pblocked? A successful hit on your opponent wouldnt drain your bp unless they pblocked it. Though it wouldn't discourage spam, unless they were spamming and missing.

el stupido

 

[SK5]

Eh, the way I remember it, 1.4.5's swing damage is such that you should be capable of much more easily overpowering an unexperienced saberist.

Wouldnt really say so as it comes down to your personal drains again. You need to take small pauses to compensate for the damage you do to yourself or there comes a massive risk of the enemy getting 1 lucky pb counter and boom, you both suddenly have 20bp eventhough you clearly had the upperhand.

This patch i feel like the amount of bp you have after a win doesnt matter. Previously it showed your skill but now its just a number that makes you think less about yourself.

I guess i just miss those sweet 100bp victories that felt amazing. now you are lucky to win a clear fight with over 60bp

 

[Vizino]

I came into MBII like just days after the 1.4 update so i've never used any of the older saber style systems but i still vote no cause it leaves room to like master styles and 'be one with the force' lel I like the complexity of it, even tho i do agree on the simple fact that tweaks could be made, but that's inevitable with any program really even more so on a mod but i feel like if it was any less then what it is, it would be basic and everyone would be 'pro' with what ever style, like using Staff vs Single is different in how you want to attack and defend and vice versa with duels vs what ever and etc.

 

[pelmeņu lauks]

Overcomplicated system, RIP.

 

[Tempest]

I came into MBII like just days after the 1.4 update so i've never used any of the older saber style systems but i still vote no cause it leaves room to like master styles and 'be one with the force' lel I like the complexity of it, even tho i do agree on the simple fact that tweaks could be made, but that's inevitable with any program really even more so on a mod but i feel like if it was any less then what it is, it would be basic and everyone would be 'pro' with what ever style, like using Staff vs Single is different in how you want to attack and defend and vice versa with duels vs what ever and etc.

Compared to the older builds, the current stuff (1.3 up to now) is all very much simplified/watered down. At its core, dueling comes down almost to a pseudo-rock-paper-scissors type interaction with nudge, PB counters, facehugging, and the varying issues involving instant consecutive swings. You can essentially do the same thing with each style vs any style and the success/fail rate will be pretty much be solely dependent on PB counters followed closely by nudging (though half the time this is just an unintentional thing that's messing up blocking).

That is going to be one of the significant differences compared to the upcoming changes. It won't be pick any style and start facehugging while throwing out whatever random swings in hopes that the person isn't aiming where said swings are coming from (or just doing that because it's physically impossible to PB the swings; cough staff cough). There will be cases where this simply will not work by default and, in turn, will mean adaptation is required if you don't want to fumble over your own actions (not because of mechanics akin to RC1 saber spazzing but because you'll end up getting interrupted-which will actually be punishing again- because of bad decision making). The skill ceiling isn't going to be ankle-high anymore, in a nutshell.

 

[hleV]

Cool story.

 

[Chorb]

That is going to be one of the significant differences compared to the upcoming changes. It won't be pick any style and start facehugging while throwing out whatever random swings in hopes that the person isn't aiming where said swings are coming from (or just doing that because it's physically impossible to PB the swings; cough staff cough). There will be cases where this simply will not work by default and, in turn, will mean adaptation is required if you don't want to fumble over your own actions (not because of mechanics akin to RC1 saber spazzing but because you'll end up getting interrupted-which will actually be punishing again- because of bad decision making). The skill ceiling isn't going to be ankle-high anymore, in a nutshell.

This is exacly what im hoping becomes of the saber system. The beta felt like the styles were not well tought out, but hey its a beta. Its not expected to be balanced.
There is nothing for us to do but trust you at this point, and im hopping we wont be wrong. Please take time to ensure all styles are playable, and be active whit nerfs / buffs if need arises.
I just have a bad feeling this will be another "flinch", a bandaid to fix for what is not broken, causing a waterfall of unexpected balance issues, and then no response for a year. Just because we got burned pretty bad whit gunner vs jedi in 1.4.

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

The current saber system is dung. It's been poop since Stassin ruined it. No offense, or maybe, yes, take offense, its my honest opinion.

I think its a joke. The only *old* players that like it seem to be Eurof-swuts FEW LIKED who abused every bug and exploit they could for years. The saddest part is it doesnt matter what I or others think, thought or would or do say. Coders rule, everyone else can drool.

Grade remains...F.

RC1 was best. But this...is drivel.

Take your arcade blocking and shove it up ur buttholes!

 

[k4far]

As you run out of BP and take on a swing resulting in dropping your saber sounds like my favourite change. Mostly all of my opponents just go running when they are out and somehow luckily they manage to recover, like everything, over seconds. It will make it so much harder to them I can not even imagine how much easier for me the unexperienced it will get.

Relying on others will be even more beneficial and common thing to do. Great change this one.