Are devs overcomplicating the saber system?

Are devs overcomplicating the saber system?

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I find it quite odd that before, there was only simple things about dueling and now I find that there's all this new stuff added into the game which to me is just making everything so overly complicated now. I liked it before when things were simple, Pblocking saves BP, AP was balanced, saber swings had decent speeds, etc.

I mean 1.3's saber system would've been fine where it was with just some minor adjustments to the stats, an entire re-do of the system wasn't really necessary in my opinion but what do I know, I'm not a coder. I just like to duel. :D
 

Lessen

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"Saber swings had such-and-so speed" is not an appeal to simplicity vs complexity, it's just a preference for a particular speed. Slowing things down a bit makes it less flaily/guessy. Which is a matter of preference.

Some things they've done have made the system less complicated/arcane, namely removing swing chain direction limitations. A lot of the mechanics they've added are meant to address ways that the current system can be "exploited" in some sense. They're meant to add depth. I don't mind it all as long as at the end it all ends up well documented and ready to be learned.

I think the system wouldn't need to be as complicated if we somehow had even more precise control over our swords and movements, and a more advanced physics engine and whatever, but since the engine has the limits that it does, mechanics and strategic elements that would be organic in real life instead have to be directly coded in.
 
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"Saber swings had such-and-so speed" is not an appeal to simplicity vs complexity, it's just a preference for a particular speed. Slowing things down a bit makes it less flaily/guessy. Which is a matter of preference.

Some things they've done have made the system less complicated/arcane, namely removing swing chain direction limitations. A lot of the mechanics they've added are meant to address ways that the current system can be "exploited" in some sense. They're meant to add depth. I don't mind it all as long as at the end it all ends up well documented and ready to be learned.

I think the system wouldn't need to be as complicated if we somehow had even more precise control over our swords and movements, and a more advanced physics engine and whatever, but since the engine has the limits that it does, mechanics and strategic elements that would be organic in real life instead have to be directly coded in.

The game was way more simpler back then when you didn't have to worry about the same swing twice in a row while they were comboing, plus all this Perfect countering, semi pblocking and perfect parrying, what is all this? I remember just having simple pblocking and not having to worry about all the other stuff like that, lightsaber styles had perks that benefited what they were meant to be used for and now its just one big mess now imo. Not to mention every time there's an MB2 update the saber system keeps getting changed and i'm stuck with having to relearn half the stuff i used to be good at.

I just dont see how you can see how its simple now when there is just more things you need to worry about. Now i feel like when I come back to MB2 i'm gonna have to expect slower and faster swings on whether you swingblock or not, or worry about getting auto disarmed when I run low on BP and have no chance of making a comeback. I don't know, i guess I just miss the past.
 
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What I don't understand is why it's there to begin with.
But you know what a semi-pb does, right? Because if not, you're either really dumb, blind (there's a visual feedback for what each thing does) or just over-exaggerating things. The game has changed over the years but the best saberists are still up there regardless if it's 1.3 or 1.4. If you're not willing to learn and evolve with the game, stay mediocre and keep creating polls.


07:29 - Tempest: if anything it's gotten more dumbed and watered down
07:29 - Tempest: ironically
 
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But you know what a semi-pb does, right? Because if not, you're either really dumb, blind (there's a visual feedback for what each thing does) or just over-exaggerating things. The game has changed over the years but the best saberists are still up there regardless if it's 1.3 or 1.4. If you're not willing to learn and evolve with the game, stay mediocre and keep creating polls.


07:29 - Tempest: if anything it's gotten more dumbed and watered down
07:29 - Tempest: ironically

I could really care less about what it does now, what I want to know is why it was implemented in the first place? To stop the spamming people did or something? Because people are gonna find SOMETHING to spam with the saber system regardless of what was put into play. :\ And to answer the quote you put from tempest, to you it may have been dumbed and watered down perhaps but as I said previously, its just more things to worry about as your dueling and I don't see where having to focus on so many things at once is any fun. :\
 
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I could really care less about what it does now, what I want to know is why it was implemented in the first place? To stop the spamming people did or something? Because people are gonna find SOMETHING to spam with the saber system regardless of what was put into play. :\ And to answer the quote you put from tempest, to you it may have been dumbed and watered down perhaps but as I said previously, its just more things to worry about as your dueling and I don't see where having to focus on so many things at once is any fun. :\

For the record, I'm playing this since 1.4.3. To me personally semi-pb is a noob-friendly feature which makes not committing to defense a lot more forgiving. (lower skill ceiling :() For a numerous times have I gotten a semi-pb (YELLOW) instead of pb (GREEN) just because I released block a split-second too early before attacking my opponent. If it wasn't for the semi-pb, I'd take a full body hit due to my lack of discipline/timing.

On the other hand, semi-pb is extremely useful when dealing with multiple (more than one) opponents at once because you are able to block their swings while running/jumping, etc.

So yeah, semi-pb is a welcome feature on a big picture (Open mode), but 1v1 dueling skill range suffers from it.
 
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For the record, I'm playing this since 1.4.3. To me personally semi-pb is a noob-friendly feature which makes not committing to defense a lot more forgiving. (lower skill ceiling :() For a numerous times have I gotten a semi-pb (YELLOW) instead of pb (GREEN) just because I released block a split-second too early before attacking my opponent. If it wasn't for the semi-pb, I'd take a full body hit due to my lack of discipline/timing.

On the other hand, semi-pb is extremely useful when dealing with multiple (more than one) opponents at once because you are able to block their swings while running/jumping, etc.

So yeah, semi-pb is a welcome feature on a big picture (Open mode), but 1v1 dueling skill range suffers from it.

"Reason its bad is because its another safety tool to save people from their own mistakes. One shouldnt be able to miss/swingn too early, get hit mid swing and pblock anyways. It really makes no sense. Who's heard of walking backwards not blocking and still semi-pb anyways, or go for a rollstab and happen to fail but you get that one semi pb to rescue u? Plus it destroys the purpose of interrupts." - Kael

Meaning that players who are generally new should have punishment for their own mistakes or miscalculations, same goes for experienced players as well. Kael has been playing MB2 for far longer than I have and I think he has some good points in the matter. And plus I see where the devs are trying to lessen the harshness of the learning curve in MB2, but when it comes down to the fact that a newer player is doing moderately good against multiple enemies instead of failing outright kinda puts veteran players to shame when they first started playing long ago. Not to mention having this failsafe defeats the purpose of fighting to survive. :\
 

Tempest

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In general, I'm trying to get things to a state that basically does the following:
- Let's good/experienced players dispatch with less experienced ones through skillful play.
- Has sloppy/mindless play punished accordingly.
- Makes duels/fights go quickly if there's a large margin in skill between opponents
- Has damage done/negated majorly through timing/skill-based mechanics and tools rather than just swinging a lot at someone and having them die by default or happening to get a block by accidental occurrence that saves them when it shouldn't (there should be just as much a difference in skill with attacking as there is in defending and varying levels of effectiveness in each).
- Allow for single players that are skillful/experienced to stand up confidently vs multiple opponents that they outclass and be able to come out on top without too much trouble/resource drain if play is done well.
- Making it intuitive to fight/use each style
- So on and so on.
 
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"Reason its bad is because its another safety tool to save people from their own mistakes. One shouldnt be able to miss/swingn too early, get hit mid swing and pblock anyways. It really makes no sense. Who's heard of walking backwards not blocking and still semi-pb anyways, or go for a rollstab and happen to fail but you get that one semi pb to rescue u? Plus it destroys the purpose of interrupts." - Kael

Meaning that players who are generally new should have punishment for their own mistakes or miscalculations, same goes for experienced players as well. Kael has been playing MB2 for far longer than I have and I think he has some good points in the matter. And plus I see where the devs are trying to lessen the harshness of the learning curve in MB2, but when it comes down to the fact that a newer player is doing moderately good against multiple enemies instead of failing outright kinda puts veteran players to shame when they first started playing long ago. Not to mention having this failsafe defeats the purpose of fighting to survive. :\

I still don't get what you find complicated in this. Please don't forget that Open is the main selling point of this mod, not Duels. I'd want to see you try to hold your own against two cyan back-whackers without semi-pb. Chances are, you're going to die unless you run away. So if you're looking for complicated, try For Honor. I'm sure that game will make you appreciate MB2 a lot more. I mean... at least your character doesn't move like a fucking rock. :)
 
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I still don't get what you find complicated in this. Please don't forget that Open is the main selling point of this mod, not Duels. I'd want to see you try to hold your own against two cyan back-whackers without semi-pb. Chances are, you're going to die unless you run away. So if you're looking for complicated, try For Honor. I'm sure that game will make you appreciate MB2 a lot more. I mean... at least your character doesn't move like a fucking rock. :)

Generally when you're faced with two fast styled opponents you'd have to have hit and run tactics anyways. Hard to explain.

In general, I'm trying to get things back to a state that basically does the following:
- Let's good/experienced players dispatch with less experienced ones through skillful play.
- Has sloppy/mindless play punished accordingly.
- Makes duels/fights go quickly if there's a large margin in skill between opponents
- Has damage done/negated majorly through timing/skill-based mechanics and tools rather than just swinging a lot at someone and having them die by default or happening to get a block by accidental occurrence that saves them when it shouldn't (there should be just as much a difference in skill with attacking as there is in defending and varying levels of effectiveness in each).
- Allow for single players that are skillful/experienced to stand up confidently vs multiple opponents that they outclass and be able to come out on top without too much trouble/resource drain if play is done well.
- Making it intuitive to fight/use each style
- So on and so on.

Meh, i'll find out when my college has a break of some sorts and i'm able to go home and play MB2, the update should be out by then. lol
 

Stassin

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In general, I'm trying to get things back to a state that basically does the following:
- Let's good/experienced players dispatch with less experienced ones through skillful play.
- Has sloppy/mindless play punished accordingly.
- Makes duels/fights go quickly if there's a large margin in skill between opponents
- Has damage done/negated majorly through timing/skill-based mechanics and tools rather than just swinging a lot at someone and having them die by default or happening to get a block by accidental occurrence that saves them when it shouldn't (there should be just as much a difference in skill with attacking as there is in defending and varying levels of effectiveness in each).
- Allow for single players that are skillful/experienced to stand up confidently vs multiple opponents that they outclass and be able to come out on top without too much trouble/resource drain if play is done well.
- Making it intuitive to fight/use each style
- So on and so on.
Good thing previous saber systems handled all of that pretty well already, you actually haven't improved it in these regards, the only thing you've done overall is make the saber system much easier to visualize, so yes, mistakes are more obvious than before, but that also reduces the skillcap; seemingly you believe that being able to chain swings very quickly means that timing isn't rewarded, but that's absurd, it is rewarded just as much as with your slower swing chains, only it's more difficult to see it because the action is quicker, but that has never been a problem for experienced duelists, you are just taking away some of the observation skill requirement.

What you should really have focused on if you wanted to improve the saber system's overall design intentions for the various styles is completely redesign some of the styles so that they are much more diverse and also compliment each other much more strongly (so as to encourage style switching), the weak point of recent saber systems is that all styles play roughly the same (the exceptions, to some weak extent, being blue and red).

Not saying all of your changes are bad, alot of them are plain improvements and detail-adding like mblock details and fine-tuning the style perks, just some of the core system mechanics are clearly going in the wrong direction imo. Really, seriously, don't slow chains down (much at all) and instead add chaining direction restrictions back, with different ones based on styles so as to make some of the styles easier to PB than others.
 

SeV

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Good thing previous saber systems handled all of that pretty well already, you actually haven't improved it in these regards, the only thing you've done overall is make the saber system much easier to visualize, so yes, mistakes are more obvious than before, but that also reduces the skillcap; seemingly you believe that being able to chain swings very quickly means that timing isn't rewarded, but that's absurd, it is rewarded just as much as with your slower swing chains, only it's more difficult to see it because the action is quicker, but that has never been a problem for experienced duelists, you are just taking away some of the observation skill requirement.

What you should really have focused on if you wanted to improve the saber system's overall design intentions for the various styles is completely redesign some of the styles so that they are much more diverse and also compliment each other much more strongly (so as to encourage style switching), the weak point of recent saber systems is that all styles play roughly the same (the exceptions, to some weak extent, being blue and red).

Not saying all of your changes are bad, alot of them are plain improvements and detail-adding like mblock details and fine-tuning the style perks, just some of the core system mechanics are clearly going in the wrong direction imo. Really, seriously, don't slow chains down (much at all) and instead add chaining direction restrictions back, with different ones based on styles so as to make some of the styles easier to PB than others.

First of all, tempest is trying to merge the feeling and skills of pre stassin aimed PB and pre 1.3 clean up, with the good things we have now. Saying he has done nothing but make the saber system easier to visualize is retarded and degrading and simply untrue. Also, the previous saber systems he said he wants to get back to are those pre 1.3, to bring back the feeling of timing they had while not replacing the good stuff we have from the newer builds. I know you feel the need to defend your work, but don't let that cloud your vision of what is wrong with the current iteration and what he has done to improve it. To me its plain as day that there is already a massive improvement upon public even if its unfinished to say the least. I utterly despise how 1.4.3 and 1.4.4 turned out, and I admit also that 1.4 had some flaws (in my opinion one of the biggest ones being how long it took to kill unskilled players due to dependancy on ACM for damage).

But all of this is beside the point. In any case, I don't see tempests system lowering the skillcap, but rather raising it back up to where it should be or atleast close to it. I agree with the part about styles fitting into niches and being more unique than before. The way you streamlined them in 1.3 contributed to them feeling like much the same, but that was also a problem in previous builds though to a lesser degree. You should not degrade him by saying that the only thing he has done is make it easier to see what is going on because he slowed the system down. He has put alot of thought into the system, and continues to do so and work with others to improve it and test new ideas. So far I have to say he has been much more receptive to outside ideas than you and I think its too early to go off slandering him and his system before he's even finished a working prototype yet.

The old swingspeeds in beta were definitely too slow stassin, but I think its mostly coming together now, especially with how he has integrated yawing. Adding some form of the old halfswings on top of that will ensure that we have plenty of fast attacks but much more variety than before. I'm hoping that will be enough, though I continue to miss the spice that was old nudged red from before the aimed PB days. Tempest has done much to raise the skillcap, and he has done so without muddling it up for the newer players which is a great achievement in and of itself. Of course, how it ultimately turns out in the end remains to be seen, but it's certainly too soon for such a scathing verdict as :"the only thing you've done overall is make the saber system much easier to visualize, so yes, mistakes are more obvious than before, but that also reduces the skillcap."



EDIT: I just realized this is kind of off topic?

Just fyi, I think that it's almost impossible to overcomplicate a sabering system in the pursuit of making a coherent and logical system that rewards skillful play. The real issues lie with how to show certain effects and happenings, which has actually improved drastically over the years. In some of the old builds, there were many shadowy half bug half feature mechanics that skilled players used but most normal guys had no idea existed. That was my original reason for writing my guide back in 2009, because things like nudge and halfswinging and PBing were not clearly understood by the majority of people. Right now we have a system where there are many clearly defined mechanics, so in terms of complication it is more complicated that something like b18 or RC1. It is clearer however, so that makes it easier to understand and also harder at the same time cause there are more things to get used to. In any case, I do not think that striving for a really simple saber system is a good idea. You could go back to base for that. No, what needs to be done is to make sensible mechanics, code them visually with staggers, green flashes for PBs and so on... so people can see what is going on. I don't think that we should seek to dumb down the system for fear of incapacitating a random newcomer. We will write a comprehensive guide to all the mechanics, make guide videos and seek to explain and help new players if that becomes an issue. The real goal should be the pursuit of a perfect saber system, and in such a pursuit complication has little bearing. If the so called complications end up improving the system then good. If they don't improve the system then bad, remove. It's that simple. I don't think and have never thought that overcomplication is an issue, only the transparency of what is going on and the dissemination of such knowledge or lack thereof.
 
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Lessen

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What you should really have focused on if you wanted to improve the saber system's overall design intentions for the various styles is completely redesign some of the styles so that they are much more diverse and also compliment each other much more strongly (so as to encourage style switching), the weak point of recent saber systems is that all styles play roughly the same (the exceptions, to some weak extent, being blue and red).
I agree with the part about styles fitting into niches and being more unique than before.
I Like This Idea A Bunch.
 

Tempest

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Good thing previous saber systems handled all of that pretty well already, you actually haven't improved it in these regards, the only thing you've done overall is make the saber system much easier to visualize, so yes, mistakes are more obvious than before, but that also reduces the skillcap; seemingly you believe that being able to chain swings very quickly means that timing isn't rewarded,
I've never said that chaining swings very quickly means that timing isn't rewarded nor is that the basis for why I was adjusting them to be slower. Here's a few of the reasons why I tried slowing the chaining speeds down:
  • Public chaining looks bad in general (mainly cause of instant/teleporty swinging/lack of animations)
  • It's kind of dull in regards to actually feeling/looking like you're dueling if people are just mashing super fast swings back and forth (IMO)
  • Being able to read fast or slightly slowed down chain speeds doesn't make you a good duelist. Having the capacity to understand what to do as far as reacting to the chaining and being able to execute it is.
  • Anything past the first swing in public builds is almost irrelevant when it comes to skill from either the attacking or defending perspective. If the swing is too fast to possibly read/react to in any reasonable manner, that should be a big red flag.

What you should really have focused on if you wanted to improve the saber system's overall design
What you think should be the case and what will actually improve it are very different, both conceptually and as shown over time.

What you should really have focused on if you wanted to improve the saber system's overall design intentions for the various styles is completely redesign some of the styles so that they are much more diverse and also compliment each other much more strongly (so as to encourage style switching)
There's a very fine line between making styles distinct/standing out from each other/being good and/or bad at things and making someone basically required to have multiple styles to be functional. I'm already making headway on the former but I don't intend to ever make it so players are (nearly) required to have multiple stances at all times.

the weak point of recent saber systems is that all styles play roughly the same (the exceptions, to some weak extent, being blue and red).
Agreed. Sev also covered it quite precisely with
The way you streamlined them in 1.3 contributed to them feeling like much the same, but that was also a problem in previous builds though to a lesser degree.

Not saying all of your changes are bad, alot of them are plain improvements and detail-adding like mblock details and fine-tuning the style perks, just some of the core system mechanics are clearly going in the wrong direction imo. Really, seriously, don't slow chains down (much at all) and instead add chaining direction restrictions back, with different ones based on styles so as to make some of the styles easier to PB than others.
If you actually looked at what's been changing you'd know that most, if not all, of the stuff from the first open beta has been addressed/fixed/etc for quite a while.

Lunch time so that's all for now.
 
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My opinion on the saber system now is based off of what I've read on the forums, i'm sure there's a pretty good chance my opinion will change once i've played the updates for myself.
 

Stassin

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Not going to talk about anything else since i haven't tested etc., but the fact that you are convinced of the following is the main reason why i'm very worried:
  • Being able to read fast or slightly slowed down chain speeds doesn't make you a good duelist. Having the capacity to understand what to do as far as reacting to the chaining and being able to execute it is.
- What about both at the same time ? Doesn't that require more skill that just your second point alone ? Understanding what to do and doing it slowly is still much easier than understanding what to do and doing it quickly. If you remove or weaken that aspect, you are DEFINITELY reducing the skillcap quite a bit.

Anything past the first swing in public builds is almost irrelevant when it comes to skill from either the attacking or defending perspective. If the swing is too fast to possibly read/react to in any reasonable manner, that should be a big red flag.
- It is a big red flag that you believe this. Reading your opponent, adjusting your footwork to make their chained attack reach you a little bit slower, are all part of surpassing your enemy at this speed. Don't. Remove. That.

I hope next time i test this the speeds will be enough, though i seriously doubt it given your stance on the subject.
 
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