Another sabering poll

Revert, Tempest's build or redesign

  • Revert

    Votes: 12 11.1%
  • Update to Tempest's build

    Votes: 77 71.3%
  • Redesign

    Votes: 19 17.6%

  • Total voters
    108
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Hessu

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Once again, lets ask the players what they want. Everyone knows that the current saber patch is bad and a lot of people want to have it updated and fixing its flaws. Now Tempests sabering build fixes these current flaws and makes sabering great again in my opinion, but Defiant doesn't want us to have it because he thinks the system is bad. Defiant wants to redesign dueling to something like he'd find fun but doesn't seem to really be interested in the players opinion. So now i ask you, would you want tempests sabering patch to come out, revert the system or wait for who knows how long to make a redesign of sabering?
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(apparently making gameplay better is a waste of resources)
 
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Literally everybody has agreed we would be better off in legit ANY previous patch. Saying that nobody can settle on anything is just an excuse, no game or anything really has had a 100% acceptance rate. No matter what, people are going to be unhappy...

Maybe the developers should listen to us rather than a small group of BETA testers and amongst each other.

Let us have a crack at Tempest's build in an open BETA rather than letting one developer decide what's best for the vast majority of the community.
 
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Karus

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Defiant quote.PNG

That's going to happen regardless of the changes you make...
It's part and parcel of change.
Doesn't mean that we shouldn't be able to play a new build, or even test it.
Let us test Tempest's build in a beta of some sort, or even release Tempest's build on the main game temporarily, like a trial period of a week or so, and gage the communities response.
I really don't get why this is such a difficult thing to do, as last I heard, Tempest's build was basically complete.
So let us play it!
 

MaceMadunusus

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View attachment 3871(apparently making gameplay better is a waste of resources)

You're misunderstanding. Its a waste of resources to constantly redo the saber system and focus on duel mode for 10+ years, and have people still be unhappy. Many of us are done with this crap. How many times in the past have we had people saying "Why cant we get X's saber build update yet? It sounds finished and sounds great!" And it releases and it doesn't live up to the same hype you are associating with it right now, because people find some exploit with it not found in testing (or even possibly intentionally hidden by ego saberist testers so they can abuse when live) that ruins the entire thing. I have heard this sooo many times. I have also heard "Just revert to X build" so many times, which is a build that many people I know detest, while another group adores. An example being 1.3 Peneke suggested above. That is one of my least favorite builds, because I believe it lead is down the wrong path for sabering that lead us to here. I pretty much stopped any sabering at all outside of helping test in beta, because of that build leaving such a sour taste in my mouth. Going back past the ideas of 1.3 and redoing everything is the only way its going to work.

This isn't sustainable when we have such a small team. Just go back to my list of features for things that could have been added if the same effort put on the saber system was put elsewhere. We are in a worse spot as a game/mod because of all of this. Sabering is literally choking us to death, but no one wants to give it up for a time as evidence by the three threads in the past week. Time to move forward, rather than reinventing the wheel the 100th time.

Maybe the developers should listen to us rather than a small group of BETA testers and amongst each other.

We have, for 10 years. That is why the saber system keeps getting updates. We've tried builds with suggestions from the community, beta, devs, everyone. None of them are working out. Some are better than others, but still have a large enough segment of the community that finds and abuses exploits, or just wants changes to have it feel a way that they like, or whatever the case may be. We've been running in circles for years. Just because you have only really been around recently to see how things are now, doesn't suddenly discount how we got here.

Let us have a crack at Tempest's build in an open BETA rather than letting one developer decide what's best for the vast majority of the community.

I have no problem with open betas, and would like to do them more often. They are a massive chore to setup right now though. However, people acting like Tempests build will suddenly stop a large chunk of the community from requesting another set of massive changes is completely wishful thinking and not at all based on past evidence. Tempest has been doing testing on it outside of the dev and beta team to get more feedback but I almost guarantee something will be wrong, and someone will end up bitching about something once we set it up for open beta or release it. It is inevitable based on past patches. Meanwhile the rest of the mod suffers while I sit here not having features I requested 10 years ago added to the game. Features that I could have done myself in 2 weeks in UE4 but need help here.

I really don't get why this is such a difficult thing to do, as last I heard, Tempest's build was basically complete.

He started saying that 2 years ago, its still not done and hes still tweaking it. That is beside the point as because months ago we did a massive code merge which reworked a lot of the backend of mb2. That build has not been updated with that code merge yet, and basically all gameplay changes need that code to go out before those changes can be done. I am tempted to release what we have for the current changelog once everything is a bit more well documented just so people can see how much is actually changing. The patch notes currently sit at 8 pages, with no main gameplay changes being present and things currently in it not being fully documented.

I would love to finally have a sabering build the majority is happy with, that we don't constantly have to keep tweaking, but that seems like a losing battle after trying for over 10 years while everything else suffers. We are not Mordhau or Chivalry where the majority of the characters carry swords, with things like archers and spearmen sprinkled about. We have a whole wide variety of character types/classes in the SW universe that aren't even represented in this mod 16.5 years later. Lets make those cool things.
 
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shea conn

Account Suspended
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You're misunderstanding. Its a waste of resources to constantly redo the saber system and focus on duel mode for 10+ years, and have people still be unhappy. Many of us are done with this crap. How many times in the past have we had people saying "Why cant we get X's saber build update yet? It sounds finished and sounds great!" And it releases and it doesn't live up to the same hype you are associating with it right now, because people find some exploit with it not found in testing (or even possibly intentionally hidden by ego saberist testers so they can abuse when love) that ruins the entire thing. I have heard this sooo many times. I have also heard "Just revert to X build" so many times, which is a build that many people I know detest, while another group adores. An example being 1.3 Peneke suggested above. That is one of my least favorite builds, because I believe it lead is down the wrong path for sabering that lead us to here. I pretty much stopped any sabering at all outside of helping test in beta, because of that build leaving such a sour taste in my mouth. Going back past the ideas of 1.3 and redoing everything is the only way its going to work.

This isn't sustainable when we have such a small team. Just go back to my list of features for things that could have been added if the same effort put on the saber system was put elsewhere. We are in a worse spot as a game/mod because of all of this. Sabering is literally choking us to death, but no one wants to give it up for a time as evidence by the three threads in the past week. Time to move forward, rather than reinventing the wheel the 100th time.



We have, for 10 years. That is why the saber system keeps getting updates. We've tried builds with suggestions from the community, beta, devs, everyone. None of them are working out. Some are better than others, but still have a large enough segment of the community that finds and abuses exploits, or just wants changes to have it feel a way that they like, or whatever the case may be. We've been running in circles for years. Just because you have only really been around recently to see how things are now, doesn't suddenly discount how we got here.



I have no problem with open betas, and would like to do them more often. They are a massive chore to setup right now though. However, acting like Tempests build will suddenly stop a large chunk of the community from requesting another set of massive changes is completely wishful thinking and not at all based on past evidence. Tempest has been doing testing on it outside of the dev and beta team to get more feedback but I almost guarantee something will be wrong, and someone will end up bitching about something once we set it up for open beta or release it. It is inevitable based on past patches. Meanwhile the rest of the mod suffers while I sit here not having features I requested 10 years ago added to the game. Features that I could have done myself in 2 weeks in UE4 but need help here.



He started saying that 2 years ago, its still not done and hes still tweaking it. That is beside the point as because months ago we did a massive code merge which reworked a lot of the backend of mb2. That build has not been updated with that code merge yet, and basically all gameplay changes need that code to go out before those changes can be done. I am tempted to release what we have for the current changelog once everything is a bit more well documented just so people can see how much is actually changing. The patch notes currently sit at 8 pages, with no main gameplay changes being present and things currently in it not being fully documented.

I would love to finally have a sabering build the majority is happy with, that we don't constantly have to keep tweaking, but that seems like a losing battle after trying for over 10 years while everything else suffers. We are not Mordhau or Chivalry where the majority of the characters carry swords, with things like archers and spearmen sprinkled about. We have a whole wide variety of character types/classes in the SW universe that aren't even represented in this mod 16.5 years later. Lets make those cool things.
can we like idk speak to someone that actually works on sabering instead of someone who does the maps and ui
 

Hessu

Internal Beta Team
Posts
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You're misunderstanding. Its a waste of resources to constantly redo the saber system and focus on duel mode for 10+ years, and have people still be unhappy. Many of us are done with this crap. How many times in the past have we had people saying "Why cant we get X's saber build update yet? It sounds finished and sounds great!" And it releases and it doesn't live up to the same hype you are associating with it right now, because people find some exploit with it not found in testing (or even possibly intentionally hidden by ego saberist testers so they can abuse when love) that ruins the entire thing. I have heard this sooo many times. I have also heard "Just revert to X build" so many times, which is a build that many people I know detest, while another group adores. An example being 1.3 Peneke suggested above. That is one of my least favorite builds, because I believe it lead is down the wrong path for sabering that lead us to here. I pretty much stopped any sabering at all outside of helping test in beta, because of that build leaving such a sour taste in my mouth. Going back past the ideas of 1.3 and redoing everything is the only way its going to work.

This isn't sustainable when we have such a small team. Just go back to my list of features for things that could have been added if the same effort put on the saber system was put elsewhere. We are in a worse spot as a game/mod because of all of this. Sabering is literally choking us to death, but no one wants to give it up for a time as evidence by the three threads in the past week. Time to move forward, rather than reinventing the wheel the 100th time.



We have, for 10 years. That is why the saber system keeps getting updates. We've tried builds with suggestions from the community, beta, devs, everyone. None of them are working out. Some are better than others, but still have a large enough segment of the community that finds and abuses exploits, or just wants changes to have it feel a way that they like, or whatever the case may be. We've been running in circles for years. Just because you have only really been around recently to see how things are now, doesn't suddenly discount how we got here.



I have no problem with open betas, and would like to do them more often. They are a massive chore to setup right now though. However, people acting like Tempests build will suddenly stop a large chunk of the community from requesting another set of massive changes is completely wishful thinking and not at all based on past evidence. Tempest has been doing testing on it outside of the dev and beta team to get more feedback but I almost guarantee something will be wrong, and someone will end up bitching about something once we set it up for open beta or release it. It is inevitable based on past patches. Meanwhile the rest of the mod suffers while I sit here not having features I requested 10 years ago added to the game. Features that I could have done myself in 2 weeks in UE4 but need help here.



He started saying that 2 years ago, its still not done and hes still tweaking it. That is beside the point as because months ago we did a massive code merge which reworked a lot of the backend of mb2. That build has not been updated with that code merge yet, and basically all gameplay changes need that code to go out before those changes can be done. I am tempted to release what we have for the current changelog once everything is a bit more well documented just so people can see how much is actually changing. The patch notes currently sit at 8 pages, with no main gameplay changes being present and things currently in it not being fully documented.

I would love to finally have a sabering build the majority is happy with, that we don't constantly have to keep tweaking, but that seems like a losing battle after trying for over 10 years while everything else suffers. We are not Mordhau or Chivalry where the majority of the characters carry swords, with things like archers and spearmen sprinkled about. We have a whole wide variety of character types/classes in the SW universe that aren't even represented in this mod 16.5 years later. Lets make those cool things.
Yeah not saying Tempests beta will be perfect, but its a hell of a lot better than what we currently have. And yes, no one wants that sabering would keep on getting changed all the time, just make it simple but good enough that it doesn't need to be constantly tweaked.
 

Hessu

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I think the biggest problems on this current patch are countering, parries, damages, interrupts and style balancing. These need to be fixed, we've been suffering for too long :-(
 

shea conn

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I think the biggest problems on this current patch are countering, parries, damages, interrupts and style balancing. These need to be fixed, we've been suffering for too long :-(
You mean they need to be tested
 
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We have, for 10 years. That is why the saber system keeps getting updates. We've tried builds with suggestions from the community, beta, devs, everyone. None of them are working out. Some are better than others, but still have a large enough segment of the community that finds and abuses exploits, or just wants changes to have it feel a way that they like, or whatever the case may be. We've been running in circles for years. Just because you have only really been around recently to see how things are now, doesn't suddenly discount how we got here.

As I stated, nobody will ever be 100% happy with whatever you give us. However, our point still stands. NOBODY likes this patch and the majority are asking for a revert OR Tempest's build. For once, the majority are actually asking for one thing in common and it could serve as a stable ground... Long enough for a rework or for you guys to add what you want to add and not focus on duelling. I agree, the pettiness of the MBII dueling community is incredibly persistent and cancerous but it won't help you guys any more if you simply do the opposite of what the community wants.


I have no problem with open betas, and would like to do them more often. They are a massive chore to setup right now though. However, people acting like Tempests build will suddenly stop a large chunk of the community from requesting another set of massive changes is completely wishful thinking and not at all based on past evidence. Tempest has been doing testing on it outside of the dev and beta team to get more feedback but I almost guarantee something will be wrong, and someone will end up bitching about something once we set it up for open beta or release it. It is inevitable based on past patches. Meanwhile the rest of the mod suffers while I sit here not having features I requested 10 years ago added to the game. Features that I could have done myself in 2 weeks in UE4 but need help here.

Again, I say this to everyone, I truly feel for the developer team in MBII. As you said, you've spent 16+/- years on this mod for nothing and still get shit in return. It's not fair and I do agree with you on this post... I would love for more content other than dueling which is why I'm strongly proposing you, as a team, either release Tempest's build (BETA, final stages, launch) and leave it as that OR revert to a patch the majority thoroughly enjoyed or didn't mind. As stated in my last reply, it will serve as a strong stable ground enough for the team to work on anything not duelling specific. I agree, it's wishful thinking, but maybe it's time for you to finally give us a duelling patch and leave it as that. If people don't like it, too bad. You've done your best, now it's time for something new.

All in all, I'm just really hoping for either a revert or Tempest's eventual duelling patch. Speaking for myself, I'm happy with whatever option and will not complain again - simply because I'm fed up with it as much as anybody else & as you said, I've not been here for as long as most but it affects me as well as others all the same.
 
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Karus

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You're misunderstanding. Its a waste of resources to constantly redo the saber system and focus on duel mode for 10+ years, and have people still be unhappy. Many of us are done with this crap. How many times in the past have we had people saying "Why cant we get X's saber build update yet? It sounds finished and sounds great!" And it releases and it doesn't live up to the same hype you are associating with it right now, because people find some exploit with it not found in testing (or even possibly intentionally hidden by ego saberist testers so they can abuse when love) that ruins the entire thing. I have heard this sooo many times. I have also heard "Just revert to X build" so many times, which is a build that many people I know detest, while another group adores. An example being 1.3 Peneke suggested above. That is one of my least favorite builds, because I believe it lead is down the wrong path for sabering that lead us to here. I pretty much stopped any sabering at all outside of helping test in beta, because of that build leaving such a sour taste in my mouth. Going back past the ideas of 1.3 and redoing everything is the only way its going to work.

This isn't sustainable when we have such a small team. Just go back to my list of features for things that could have been added if the same effort put on the saber system was put elsewhere. We are in a worse spot as a game/mod because of all of this. Sabering is literally choking us to death, but no one wants to give it up for a time as evidence by the three threads in the past week. Time to move forward, rather than reinventing the wheel the 100th time.



We have, for 10 years. That is why the saber system keeps getting updates. We've tried builds with suggestions from the community, beta, devs, everyone. None of them are working out. Some are better than others, but still have a large enough segment of the community that finds and abuses exploits, or just wants changes to have it feel a way that they like, or whatever the case may be. We've been running in circles for years. Just because you have only really been around recently to see how things are now, doesn't suddenly discount how we got here.



I have no problem with open betas, and would like to do them more often. They are a massive chore to setup right now though. However, people acting like Tempests build will suddenly stop a large chunk of the community from requesting another set of massive changes is completely wishful thinking and not at all based on past evidence. Tempest has been doing testing on it outside of the dev and beta team to get more feedback but I almost guarantee something will be wrong, and someone will end up bitching about something once we set it up for open beta or release it. It is inevitable based on past patches. Meanwhile the rest of the mod suffers while I sit here not having features I requested 10 years ago added to the game. Features that I could have done myself in 2 weeks in UE4 but need help here.



He started saying that 2 years ago, its still not done and hes still tweaking it. That is beside the point as because months ago we did a massive code merge which reworked a lot of the backend of mb2. That build has not been updated with that code merge yet, and basically all gameplay changes need that code to go out before those changes can be done. I am tempted to release what we have for the current changelog once everything is a bit more well documented just so people can see how much is actually changing. The patch notes currently sit at 8 pages, with no main gameplay changes being present and things currently in it not being fully documented.

I would love to finally have a sabering build the majority is happy with, that we don't constantly have to keep tweaking, but that seems like a losing battle after trying for over 10 years while everything else suffers. We are not Mordhau or Chivalry where the majority of the characters carry swords, with things like archers and spearmen sprinkled about. We have a whole wide variety of character types/classes in the SW universe that aren't even represented in this mod 16.5 years later. Lets make those cool things.
I gotta say, thank you for taking the time to write this whole reply, considering you're not even involved with the sabering stuff, I appreciate it.
One thing though, you guys are thinking way too hard. It's not about making the perfect saber patch. It's about making the best one you can.
There's always going to be some flaws, exploits etc. because of how the system is designed, but I feel like you guys are spending too much time thinking about how to make it completely perfect - probably never gonna happen.
Does this make updating sabering pointless? NO.
This is STAR WARS. You guys can't just slap sabering to the back of the que because things haven't been working out!
Please try to find the motivation to give us more updates on the sabering situation and if possible, push for a beta of Tempest's build.
Saber beta's won't magically fix everything. But I guarantee it will make it a hell of a lot easier to analyse feedback and not end up spending too long on potentially bad ideas/concepts for the system.
 

Spaghetti

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I'm not going to get into a long screed here because I'm as sick to death of saber bickering being the community focus as Mace, but I do feel the need to make one point. The frequent characterization of sabering as being so horribly dire right now that EVERYTHING MUST BE DROPPPED TO FIX NOW OR THE MOD DIES is incredibly short sighted and silly.

I haven't enjoyed sabering mechanics in a long time, but that doesn't mean they're broken in the gameplay sense. They function just fine right now. Sabers look like lightsabers, clash like lightsabers, and in a duel one person will win based on their relative skill in using the underlying mechanics. To any casual outside observer watching a gameplay video things would seem fine. Are the mechanics less fun than in the past? I think so. That doesn't make sabers broken from a mechanical perspective, just problematic in their current mechanics from a design standpoint (optimizing fun for most people and accessibility).

Sabers being broken in a manner that merited an emergency effort would be something like block not blocking things or traces being wildly miscalculated so the swing you see isn't anywhere near where the game is calculating collisions.
 

Karus

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I'm not going to get into a long screed here because I'm as sick to death of saber bickering being the community focus as Mace, but I do feel the need to make one point. The frequent characterization of sabering as being so horribly dire right now that EVERYTHING MUST BE DROPPPED TO FIX NOW OR THE MOD DIES is incredibly short sighted and silly.

I haven't enjoyed sabering mechanics in a long time, but that doesn't mean they're broken in the gameplay sense. They function just fine right now. Sabers look like lightsabers, clash like lightsabers, and in a duel one person will win based on their relative skill in using the underlying mechanics. To any casual outside observer watching a gameplay video things would seem fine. Are the mechanics less fun than in the past? I think so. That doesn't make sabers broken from a mechanical perspective, just problematic in their current mechanics from a design standpoint.

Sabers being broken in a manner that merited an emergency effort would be something like block not blocking things or traces being wildly miscalculated so the swing you see isn't anywhere near where the game is calculating collisions.
Agreed. But I think the majority of us asking for a different build aren't saying that.
Most of us don't think the patch is absolutely horrendous, there have been worse times for sabering, and I say this to everyone who cries in-game when they lose a duel; it could be worse.
I actually don't think the current system is even that bad. It has it's faults but it's playable, and the top players from previous patches are still top, it's just easier for them to lose now (due to the faults).
We're just asking for a different build to play, one that we prefer more than this one. Or, potentially, play Tempest's new build, whether that be as an open beta test or actual release.
And ya, it's not an emergency. If it's really going to take THAT much time and effort to revert back to a previous sabering build, or to launch an open beta for Tempest's build, then I say don't even bother.
But we're players, we don't really understand how much time and effort needs to be put in to revert to a previous saber build, or to launch a beta.
That's where the misunderstanding comes in, I think.
 

eShuma

EU Official Server Admin
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Sorry for asking but can someone explain what is Tempest build? Also revert to what?
 

Hessu

Internal Beta Team
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Sorry for asking but can someone explain what is Tempest build? Also revert to what?
Tempest is a saber dev and he made a new build which is a lot better than the public build.
Reverting to some older build, whichever you want
 
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