Adjustments to General Gameplay

For the past couple months we have been gathering up ideas and thoughts on how to alter some values to reduce critical breakpoints in the gameplay experience while still staying true to MB2's signature feel. Before even trying them out, we would like to see some discussion on the potential implications and if there are some controversial changes in the mix. None of these changes are final and surely not all of them will ever see the light of day, but many of these ideas attempt to address issues that particularly new players might feel are frustrating.

Note that these changes do not focus on Saber vs Saber mechanics as that is explored elsewhere in Tempest's tweak threads.

General mechanics

• Getup from knockdown activates 0.5-1 second sooner for single life classes
  
• Getup animation from knockdowns changed to a sped up Soldier getup animation while on the ground (mid-air getup is still current coinflip)
• Can't hack objectives while on fire
• All single life classes can sideroll upon knockdown except SBD
  
• Sonic detonator stuns count as assists
• Incendiary Grenade flames stop dealing TK points after being lit for 5 seconds
  
• Assist TKs can be punished
• A primed grenade will tick passively to alert for corner camps

These changes would be focused towards reducing frustration, fixing oversights and small changes to make the game look a bit better. The most significant of these are the changes to how knockdowns look and feel.

Currently the knockdown is a very powerful mechanic that creates tension during a fight and allows for powerful crowd control abilities to be potent. It is one of the big things that sets MB2 apart from everything else. However it can prove very frustrating and can feel unavoidable for the less experienced players. By slightly reducing the time it takes for the getup and giving additional control over your destiny, we hope to alleviate general frustration while slightly reducing the game-ending impact of a knockdown.

All primed grenades will tick similar to Concussion Grenades to allow players to detect corner ambushes more reliably. This will also help players read the battlefield better as they can now determine if a grenade has been primed or not without having to hear the priming beeps.

The Force:

• Pull vulnerability frames changed to match Push
• Push costs changed from 2-2-8 to 2-4-8. Single target knockdown added for Push 2.
  
• Lightning only stuns for the frames that it hits
• FP drains are no longer capped when not blocking

These changes to the way the Force works are slight tweaks to reduce frustrating behaviour in Pull and Lightning. There was a big cool factor in hitting snipes on Jedi/Sith who were playing carelessly, so we would like to bring that back.

Push 3 is generally perceived to be very powerful and easy to use considering its utility. We are thinking of an indirect nerf by making it cost 2 points more to access. Boosting Push 2 would encourage players to save points for other abilities as long as they are comfortable with aiming at their intended targets. People who can do single-target pushing reliably will be able to do so with less points. However, if someone wants to be a crowd control powerhouse, that is still possible, just with an added cost.

Lightsaber

• Passive deflects should never fly behind the deflecter
• Increase Flinch range to match Close IDR for better consistency
• Staff/Duals cost to 0
• Staff/Duals defense arc to match regular stances

These behavioural changes explain themselves for most part. Staff and Duals are made more accessible, but they lose their defensive bonus. Flinch becomes more reliable and both players can expect a specific result when getting shot.

Frag Grenade

• Secondary throw FP drain removed

Knockdown is already punishing enough. It also feels inconsistent as it is the only explosive that does this.

Clone Rifle

• Reduce velocity of both blobs by 15%

The Clone Rifle's blob blasts have become very fast over the course of the years almost sneakily. This has removed a certain feeling of pride and accomplishment from landing air blobs on mandalorians. This also reduces the game ending power the Blob currently holds over Jedi/Sith.

Concussion Grenade

• Direct hits explode on impact dealing extra damage (10-20 HP)

Bring back some of the old Primary Grenade feel to the Soldier class while giving the Double Conc Build a bit more oomph.

Projectile Rifle

• Remove firing delay while scoping
• Introduce focus mechanic: Stand still for 1.5s to fire a 100% accurate shot. Visually decrease crosshair size in the same fashion as EE3 until accuracy achieved
• Adjust ammo available per level 8-12-18

Give the Projectile Rifle back its possibility of quickscoping, but create a requirement of having a setup for making clear shots. Ammo amounts available are also tweaked to make sniping a more conscious decision as it cannot be done wastefully.

Westar M5

• Increase sniper ammo cost so that the clip can fit 1 less sniper shot
• Decrease sniper shot base damage by 3

The M5 is largely where it needs to be, but being able to fire so many shots in succession reduces the feeling of every shot counting. In similar fashion the base damage would be decreased just slightly to emphasize the importance of landing two consecutive shots for the kill.

Bowcaster

• Implement a curved damage increase for the charged shot like with the Disruptor
• Include a sound effect for charging the shot
• Fully charged shots are always accurate

The rapid fire/charged shot swap has made the gun feel more like its own thing. It no longer feels like an overpowered E11, even if only at Level 2. The charged shot is given more emphasis while also slightly reducing its initial damage output, while keeping the maximum charge damage the same. Currently the damage adds up too fast resulting in high damage with very little charging required. These changes just nudge us more towards making the gun feel as punchy as it felt like in Episode 7.

EE3

• Sniper shot damage decreased from 100 to 90

The sniper shot damage is reduced slightly to emphasize shots that land on the chest and head.

Disruptor

• Primary shots pass through targets
• Increase reload time by 20%

The non-scoped mode gets a fun feature that should make it an interesting option in a tight hallway. The Disruptor reloads very fast and this leaves very small timing windows for enemies to relocate and suppress. Increasing reload time should make sniping a more responsible decision.

Melee

• Legsweep no longer knocks down if the target is crouching

This behaviour inconsistent and the legsweep has a very large hitbox, so knocking down players with it is not exactly as thrilling and skillful as it should be. Now players have some counterplay against it.

Poison Dart

• Reduce duration by 33%

Poison can feel like a very frustrating ability when stacked as it forces a player out of the fight. It also grants the Bountyhunter a long timing window for pressure or even securing the kill. This change should increase significance of landing consecutive darts and gives the Bountyhunter less time to capitalize.

That was a lot more than I expected. Please take your time to read and think about these changes. As said above, none of them are set in stone and are more-so starting points rather than final values.

We would love to hear your thoughts. What sounds good? What sounds bad? Why? I am fond of all of these changes and truly believe they make the game more nuanced without feeling too heavy-handed. I am sure we'll disagree on some of the more drastic points, but I would love to see you also highlight which of the changes make the game better even if you feel strongly against some other features.

 

[Vitéz]

No offense, but who cares about how many bullets they have in the sniper weapon while they have a free backup pistol and either a blaster or a repeater weapon? Even Mandalorians and ARCs can simply buy a lvl3 backup Pistol, just in case something happens with the repeater.
If you'd somehow limit the max. ammo which a player can carry at all (so for all weapons together), and the players should manage the ammo for all weapons (like blaster gets the 30% of the total ammo, pistol gets 10% and sniper gets 60%), that'd be a real change. And it'd be a fair system to have a free pistol for the gunners. But to change the max ammo from "waaaay to much" to "too much" is like you wouldnt change anything. Players would adapt to the new rules, and everything would be the same after the 2nd week of the release... like always in the past.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

I disagree, I personally have to change how much points I allocate into ammo which usually takes away points I could use for other things depending on the map, weapon, class, etc. Yes people can adjust to it, but it does change things. Plus it is in combination with other changes.

 

[Liniyka_xddd]

I've been using proj a lot with ammo 2 lately, and to be honest I would be totally fine if that was the maximum amount of shots you can get. It's close to perfect - just enough to kill a lot of people if you are accurate, but not enough if you decide to simply spam angles trying to randomly get somebody.

I would be fine with a nerf like that. Now, I'm not so sure about the 1.5 second thing. This is something that should be carefully considered, thoroughly fleshed out, tested and only then implemented.

 

[Blazer]

If it were up to me, this may sound really stupid, but the only way to nerf proj's is either an EXTREME ammo nerf so that someone just doesn't sit in a corner the whole match and shoot 25 shots.

If you gave all hero's and BH's a max of like 3 shots on a proj then that allows noobs and pro's alike to count their shots and allow snipers to become less efficient. To me, the worst part about being a gunner is constantly having to run from corner to corner because some dude with 45 projectile shots is camping you and as A GUNNER you can't even peek a corner without getting a slug decapitating you.

Or just do some nerf that proj's should only 1 shot jedi/sith, soldiers and commanders.
(it is already like that but getting shot as a hero/arc/BH/mando leaves you with 3 health so your basically useless against any gunner class)

 

[Noob]

maybe you can use your lightsaber to cut those trees down and make a bridge

 

[ANALKIN]

btw

lower point cost of sith powers

they take a left nut and a right kidney to use

 

[Vitéz]

IMO changing max ammo from 24 to 16 (just said a random reduce) would hardly matter when the snipers have another weapon which has 360+ ammo in it. Not to mention that they could still kill the entire enemy team alone before they would have to swap to Pistol/Blaster/Repeater, even after an ammo nerf.
Take away the possibility to be just as powerful in all ranges as the other classes are. Thats why I brought up the new ammo management idea. Nerf the overall ammo, so if the snipers choose on their own to give themselves more sniper ammo, they'd have obviously much less ammo in the Pistol/Blaster/Repeater. They could choose to be snipers if they want to with more ammo (kind of just like nowdays), but they wouldnt have enough ammo in the Pistol/Blaster/Repeater to shoot non-stop in a 5 min long round. But if they choose to get enough ammo for the Pistol/Blaster/Repeater, they'd obviously have less sniper ammo. This would be a fair change, where the players decide their own fate, because it'd matter how you allocate your ammo depending on the map, on your team mates, and your enemies.

 

[Liniyka_xddd]

If an entire team gets killed by 1 sniper using proj only.... I think we are looking at a big learn2play problem here.

3 shots though.. really? That would simply kill the weapon, unless you reduce the point cost to 5 or 10. Something so radical isn't going to work well.

Take away the possibility to be just as powerful in all ranges as the other classes are.

If you didn't notice, all 1-life classes except sith/jedi are powerful at all ranges.

 

[Vitéz]

Single life gunner classes are not equally powerful at all ranges. Those single life gunner classes which dont have sniper weapons (Wook, SBD, Droideka, Clonetrooper) are obviously weaker in long range, because they only have a Rifle or a Bowcaster (k, Wookiee also have Melee, which is not a ranged weapon), which is not optimized for long range combat and/or they are usually slower than the snipers classes. I'm not saying its not possible to win with these classes, especially with the Godcaster and/or against less experienced players, but its still not optimal, especially against better or equally skilled players. Snipers have a weapon optimized for long range combat, and a very similiar non-sniper weapon as these classes.

Edit: But its kind of not related to the discussion. I'm just saying, that reducing sniper ammo wont do any change ingame. Players will adapt to the less sniper ammo, and everything will remain the same. Like with most changes. Thats why I dont believe that a simple sniper ammo nerf would be a useful change.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

If an entire team gets killed by 1 sniper using proj only.... I think we are looking at a big learn2play problem here.

3 shots though.. really? That would simply kill the weapon, unless you reduce the point cost to 5 or 10. Something so radical isn't going to work well.


If you didn't notice, all 1-life classes except sith/jedi are powerful at all ranges.

Deka is useless at close range, SBD/Wook are not good at long range.





As far as the sniping thing went, I talked with Recon a little while ago about balance changes. He's convinced Proj Rifle would be fine in a more volatile environment, where blaster shots are faster and do more damage. I think that might also be the case as well.

 

[Crusader]

Who is this legendary sniper that kills the entire team with one single shot and is basically immortal that is driving all these proj nerfs?

DR definitely needs to leave Jedi/Sith's kit so long as they have a saber. As much as I detest swingblock, it is the most sensible mechanic they have had for round longevity in a long time, however they certainly do not need both DR and swingblock.

 

[Liniyka_xddd]

Deka is useless at close range, SBD/Wook are not good at long range.

That depends on the situation. Deka will wreck your face up close if you are in an open area without cover. SBD is great at absolutely any range as long as it has a good corner it can camp behind. And Wook isn't bad at long ranges either, since he can peek and fire a charged shot while scoped, which is very similar to proj.

 

[Blazer]

Who is this legendary sniper that kills the entire team with one single shot and is basically immortal that is driving all these proj nerfs?

???
Not to brag, but people like me.
Heros and BH are certainly not immortal, easy to kill really. The problem is that they are in the back and no one can do anything aside from other snipers.
I main BH/Hero (yeah i know) and I get like 15 shots with proj and EVERY single round on a map like Deathstar i get minimum 3 kills per round.
People who know how to play BH/hero/mando snipers like me can easily get 5+ kills a round. I'm very aggressive so I get up with P3 and just switch to proj when I get the chance to pick someone off in long range, but if I wanted to I can sit in a corner the whole match (which sometimes I do) and I pick off 3 gunners and about 4 jedi that are dueling in a single round.

To me, ammo nerfs arent always the answer, but they can help a ton as a sniper main like me can't pick off more than 5 guys. I get 15 shots with a proj, and that allows me to at MAXIMUM, kill the whole team. Or at minimum, usually miss 10 shots and just hit the other 5, which is still a third of a team.


P.S I'm not even good at the game, but sitting in a corner with proj and just 1 shotting everyone, and missing a few shots is super easy.

 

[Jediknight Fou]

If Snipers would get a huge nerf I would consider playing gunner more.
There is a reason why hero/bh and mandas always at the top of the score board, oneshot class and cowardly staying behind their mates, those kind of players are on top of the scoreboards in other games too where sniping is so poorly balanced.
Snipers are really the cancer of this game.

As saberist Im more interested to see finally some saber vs gunner balance again, this is totally messed up since 1.4.
I liked the antigunner perks, it was a step in the right direction, but then again removed in the next update.
You could raise the costs of red and purple (10 or 12) and make them immune to this gunnerautoprotection, would make sense since its strong styles (there is no sense their attack should get canceled when hit) also gunners would have to use their brain then and not blindly rushing at saberist which use this style.

And please rework blob.

 

[Blazer]

The only way you can nerf snipers is the speed or the amount of ammo.
If ammo was nerfed then gunners wouldn't have to worry so much about going out and trying to have a battle. If a proj gets 3 shots then you can be assured someone can't just sit in the back the whole game and would be forced to bring out their pistol/gun

 

[theNoah]

I'm fine with most of these, but I've got problems with some of them.

• Staff/Duals cost to 0

• Staff/Duals defense arc to match regular stances

I think Staff/Duals are fine the way they are.

Projectile Rifle

• Introduce focus mechanic: Stand still for 1.5s to fire a 100% accurate shot. Visually decrease crosshair size in the same fashion as EE3 until accuracy achieved

If we need to stand still for a good shot, we might as well use the Disruptor.

EE3

• Sniper shot damage decreased from 100 to 90

The shot should be able to kill a careless Jedi regardless of hit location, imo.

• Legsweep no longer knocks down if the target is crouching

This is fine the way it was, no need to change it imo.
I'm late to the party, I know.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

If Snipers would get a huge nerf I would consider playing gunner more.
There is a reason why hero/bh and mandas always at the top of the score board, oneshot class and cowardly staying behind their mates, those kind of players are on top of the scoreboards in other games too where sniping is so poorly balanced.
Snipers are really the cancer of this game.

As saberist Im more interested to see finally some saber vs gunner balance again, this is totally messed up since 1.4.
I liked the antigunner perks, it was a step in the right direction, but then again removed in the next update.
You could raise the costs of red and purple (10 or 12) and make them immune to this gunnerautoprotection, would make sense since its strong styles (there is no sense their attack should get canceled when hit) also gunners would have to use their brain then and not blindly rushing at saberist which use this style.

And please rework blob.

I have a plan to introduce skill in gunner vs Jedi/Sith engagements. Infact I want to introduce more skill to every aspect of the game.

You can read my Manifesto for *most* of the details of what I want to do, although certainly not all of them.

 

[Szunti]

Another annoying thing about knockdowns is that if you hold crouch while you get up, you can get pushed again. This killed me a couple of times. Just tested with soldier.

 

[Onysfx]

Another annoying thing about knockdowns is that if you hold crouch while you get up, you can get pushed again. This killed me a couple of times. Just tested with soldier.

Really? That's really bad. Must be fixed ASAP.

 

[Tempest]

Another annoying thing about knockdowns is that if you hold crouch while you get up, you can get pushed again. This killed me a couple of times. Just tested with soldier.

Can you go step by step with what inputs/what getups, timing of push, etc was involved where this was able to be done? Also please @ my name when you reply so I can check back in ASAP