Gameplay Direction Post 1.4.4 [Sabering]

Thanks for your patience everyone. I know most have been/are eager to see where Saber vs Saber is heading in the future of MB2. I also know that not everyone has agreed nor will agree with all of the changes but consideration for all perspectives, opinions, and aspects of gameplay has been taken, I assure you. This thread isn't going to concern/go into plans for changes to Force powers. After the polished saber changes are released, that's when all of that stuff is going to start getting worked on/tuned up (and I'm very much looking forward to it).

Starting out, I'd like to convey my personal thought process behind changing mechanics/features of the saber system. When I think back through the various systems I've played through, the one I enjoyed the most is probably v0. Aside from perfect blocking being mostly based on the orientation of both player's cameras (which did have its merits), that has felt like the most fluid/least clunky of what I can remember. However, I've also looked at the pros/cons of pretty much every build from the eyes of many players and have been trying to incorporate the best parts of each while addressing the main flaws as well. My goal in the long-term for sabering is to make attacking and defending be on even ground as far as incentive, effectiveness, and versatility in the options that are available, as well as having depth without being too complicated. Also having gameplay be tactical and enjoyable for all parties involved, of course.

Current state of plans/changes
1) Perks/Style flavor - I'm personally trying to move away from the mindset that all styles should have some innate perk by default (this doesn't mean completely removing them from all styles however). I want the stances to play according to their fundamental designs/baseline playstyles. I also want to keep what everyone has enjoyed about using them without making them unenjoyable to play against (i.e. Blue with Nudge is something most will agree is not fun to play against). That said, some styles may look like they've gotten more attention/care than others based on bullet points in changelogs. I'll say again that I've spent lots of time considering almost every angle in regards to possible adjustments to them and am confident they'll end up as intended.

2) Nudge - I know this has been a controversial mechanic for as long as it has existed. I understand why people hate it. I understand why people want it. After experimenting and discussions, it's been decided to leave it off and see how the community feels during tests (will have it turned on or off for different playing sessions). Feedback from everyone will be important on this!

3) Perfect Block, Semi-PB, and PB counter - Semi-PB and PB counter along with the currently removed PB combo break have been nearly as controversial as Nudge. I (and quite a few others) think that they do more detracting from dueling than adding skill (not saying there's no skill in PB countering but that's not the truly skillful part of the defensive mechanic it coincides with). I'm planning to completely remove Semi-PB as well as experiment with either trading PB counter for a modified PB combo break (range-based to reduce randomness/unintentional combo breaking) or just removing it and seeing what kind of feedback that gets.

4) Adjustment to BP drains/regen - Alongside the drains in 1.4.4, I'm working on adjusting the rate of BP upkeep so that mindless swinging as well as things such as very specific timing windows relating to buggy hitboxes (getting full damage without going through actual animations is already annoying but I didn't want to completely destroy those who enjoy incorporating yawing into their play). Essentially, BP regen will kick in a frame or two later if you are not at least going through the very early stages of the swing animations (there's still some slight tweaking to do per style but it will basically go unnoticed by those who don't abuse/run into this specific aspect of sabering consistently). Also going to be trying out higher global BP damage multipliers to see how they pan out. BP regen will also be slightly increased so the higher damages with the recent drains on swings aren't completely overbearing.

5) Combo Breaking - This has been an interesting mechanic that was introduced fairly recently (in the grand scheme of things). I think that having it incorporated into the first perfect block done would be fine if/when the PB zones get adjusted to not overlap and adjusted so that it's not triggered by accident on a regular basis. That said, all combo breaks will now be visually indicated by some form of flinch/stagger so that there's no guesswork on either end when someone can't swing anymore. A full list of what triggers these along with the length/duration of the stagger and whether you can block or not during them will be included/updated as we figure the numbers out.
*I do plan to let people try out a range-based (to avoid the randomness factor as mentioned) PB combo break in open betas.

6) Indicators - New indicators are going to be implemented that make it very clear how much damage you're dealing/negating.
When attacking, you'll have the following:
  • Red (Max Damage) - This is the maximum amount of damage you dealt (enemy was running, you countered off a Pblock, was swingblocking and scored a body hit).
  • Orange (Half Damage) - You dealt around 50% your maximum possible damage on this swing.
  • Yellow (Zero Damage) - The enemy completely blocked your attack (Pblock).
When defending, you'll have the following:
  • Bright Green (Prevented All) - You successfully prevent all of the enemies incoming damage (Pblock).
  • Dull Green (Prevented Half) - Non-PB, non-body hit contact (no more semi-PB stuff)
  • Aqua (Prevented None) - You took maximum damage from the enemy (Body hit).
7) Adjustments to Defense/Attacking - As you may have noticed with the different indicators, there's going to be differences in how much damage you actually deal/take compared to the current state which is either you PB'd (0 damage), got backwacked (dead), or "body" hit (X damage depending on style, ACM, etc). More details on this once they're ironed out/polished.

8) Animation/comboing adjustments - Addressing instant swinging was one of my original goals for changes to sabering. This has almost been finalized. Combo chaining will also be slower across the board (which is part of why the damage has been increased globally). Still have some tweaking to do for Staff on that though.

9) Mblock adjustments -
  • Mblock vs Swingblocks
    • Dull Green:
      • Short stagger (can still block blasters during this flinch, which will reset it (just like normal flinch)).
      • Attacker takes normal BP damage during the flinch animation.
    • Bright Green:
      • Short stagger (can still block blasters during this flinch, which will reset it (just like normal flinch)).
      • Combo breaks attacker
      • Drains BP from attacker
  • Mblock vs Non-Swingblocks
    • Dull Green:
      • Full stagger (cannot block blasters)
      • Attacker takes increased BP damage during the stagger animation.
      • Does not disarm the attacker.
    • Bright Green:
      • Full stagger (cannot block blasters)
      • Attacker takes increased BP damage during the stagger animation.
      • Disarms the attacker
    *Stagger times for these are still being finalized (so close though!). The feel as far as how long you are prevented from starting a new swing should be very similar to how to it is currently once it's done.
10) ACM adjustments - Given the higher damage, slowing the speed of ACM gain has been a fitting change. The total amount of ACM for styles has been doubled. This does not mean you will be able to get up to 4x damage, though.
  • Non-halfswings give +2 ACM (equivalent of +1 in current builds)
  • Half-swings give +1 ACM
11) Style Changes - Note that these will likely be further detailed/clarified once the rest of the defense/body hit logic adjustments have been made.
  • Blue
    • Swing count of 2
    • AP: 7->5
    • BP: 60->62
    • Drains (9 base + 1 per ACM) BP on PB
    • 20% ACM bonus damage scaling on specials
    • Loses 2 ACM on body hit
  • Cyan
    • Swing count of 4
    • BP: 55->52
    • AP: 9
    • All swings can combo break on Perfect Parry
    • Reduces 33% of ACM bonus to parries from opponents
    • Deals 75% damage on consecutive swings (cause fast)
    • Loses 2 ACM on body hit
  • Yellow
    • AP: 12->11.
    • BP: 56
    • Swing count of 4
    • No BP drain for failing Mblock
    • Drains 2 ACM on a PB counter body hit
  • White
    • Swing count of 4
    • AP: 11
    • BP: 59
    • Successful Mblock no longer automatically counts as a PB by default
    • Mblock related staggers are buffed compared to other styles
    • Mblock Vs Swingblock
      • Dull green: -2 ACC for attacker
      • Bright green: -2 ACC for attacker, +1 ACC for defender
    • Mblock Vs Non-Swingblock
      • Dull green: Half ACC loss for attacker, +2 ACC gain for defender, disarms attacker
      • Bright green: All ACM lost for attacker, +2 ACC gain for defender
    • Large block radius.
  • Green
    • AP: 10->9
    • BP: 55
    • Swing count of 5
    • All swings 0.75x damage without ACM
    • Special moves have 50% of their ACM multiplier added into their damage
    • Lose 5 BP on Perfect Parry
    • Loses 2 ACM on body hit
  • Red
    • Swing count of 3
    • AP: 15->14
    • BP: 50
    • All non-halfswings cause a stagger on body hit
    • Being PB counter body hit is -1 ACM
    • Doesn't lose BP when Mblocked on swingblocks
  • Purple
    • Swing count of 3
    • AP: 13->11
    • BP: 52
    • Deals (6 + 1 per ACM) BP through PB
    • Being PB counter body hit is -2 ACM
To avoid messing with the bullet points (post formatting is a huge pain -_-), I'll list the reasoning behind the adjustments to each style here:
1) Blue - Most that have commented on possible changes to it have wanted it to be reverted to 1.3. Given I used to main Blue and enjoyed being able to beat people down with the 8 swing limit, I also wanted to make Blue actually have a defined baseline. Blue is supposed to be a defensive style that can also wear down the opponent with quick/precise strikes. Trying out a scaling BP drain on PB is the first option I wanted to try out. Having it gain short bursts of extra BP regen (this would require some re-tuning of the AP/BP values of course) is the other I had in mind since having a way to do damage without actually attacking is almost counterintuitive by nature.
2) Cyan - Cyan has been a roller coaster of emotions for most since it got introduced into Open. Most who want something done about it either want it deleted or changed to be more parrying-oriented. I'm more inclined to go with the latter. With that, I've moved it more toward needing precision and control to get the most of the style.
3) Yellow - As I mentioned already, Yellow is a bit difficult to balance. Giving it both offensive and defensive aspects while tuning down its numbers keeps it as the "all-rounder" style without making it too good at offense or defense.
4) Staff - Given the changes to Mblock, it was difficult to figure out how to keep Staff as the Medium styles' defensive specialist. So instead of having all these extra things added alongside the potential to stagger/flinch on Mblock, I let it keep the ACC/ACM related things, have improved stagger durations with Mblock combo breaking, as well as kepping the ability to disarm on a less precise Mblock for itself. These are currently placeholder until something more fitting comes up (if something more fitting comes up..).
5) Duals - Ah, Duals. The style that pretty much nobody likes/understands how to fight while looking pretty much terrible when involved in saber vs saber combat. The goal for Duals was to make it less effective with flailing and give more focus on its utility. The adjustments listed alongside the tweaks to animations will make fighting Duals a much less annoying experience.
6) Red - So Red has been an interesting thing to experiment with. There's two different forms of stagger I'd like for people to try out. One is the non-halfswing stagger on body hits (more raw aggression but more prone to being interrupted since there's no Nudge and can't facehug with instant chained swings) and the other is a slightly expanded version of the current one (allowing feinted swings to stagger as well). I'm curious to see the reactions on this (it's not as OP as it sounds by default because of animation adjustments).
7) Purple - I thought a lot about Purple. Probably more than any other style (well maybe just behind Staff) and there's not a lot of room for things to be changed (or really that could be changed without completely breaking it in some form or another). It's a heavy style that's a bit more suited for non-purely aggressive fighters. I personally think that its theme fits more to wearing an opponent down with tactical hits rather than raw aggression (that's Red's thing) so having it able to do some small damage through PB is a start.

So much stuff, whew. None of this is finalized so don't freak out if you see anything you don't like.
 
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SeV

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I like the fact that you're bringing in visible cues such as staggers. I find that the more the dueling system relies on character animations to explain the effects of your actions, the better it will be.

I am personally not a big fan of having so many different kinds of indicators in your crosshair at all times, but I do understand their necessity when there are no other more clear-cut ways of explaining the situation present.

Here's a prototype of something we had in betatesting a long time ago.

Basically the idea was for every bodyhit to trigger a stagger. It made the duel a lot easier to read without the need for crosshair indicators. The great part was that the fights became simple to follow. If someone was doing poorly on defense, they would be seen staggering a lot. A good counter-attack that lands before the enemy's hit lands would also trigger a stagger allowing the defender to take on the offensive role.

When the player can visibly understand their situation without having to consult too many any UI elements and their variations, the system is in an ideal place.

This is what I find to be lacking the most in the saber system today. I would love for the system to be in a place where a masterful player can kill the novice in 2-3 slashes and win fights against multiple enemies alone. That's what drew me to sabering back when I started playing. Watching some of the old pros take out 5 players alone. That was the beauty of the class. This was largely killed post-B17 though and even in B17 the fights lasted ages despite the skill gap between players being massive.

Increasing BP damage across the board while increasing BP regen across the board could be an interesting avenue to look into. This would make fights less of a slow burn even when your opponent is incapable of standing up for themselves.

Essentially this is what I would love to see happen when some scrubs attempt to gank a pro.

Just a few wild thoughts and I hope you find some ideas from my ramblings :D

stagger build. Never again! Ugh :)

I can only agree with you Old Ben, a pro being able to win a 2v1 or even a 3v1 should be possible with a rework. And even more if he uses staff for instance.

It make me think of Mount and blade : warband, where a pro can easily beat a group of player if he moves correctly and make them either hit each other or bodyblock each other...

Please bring balance to the force !

Well, in 1.4.4 you just have to not attack, and try Mblocking with yellow. With any luck your opponents drain their own BP while attacking and you can finish them off with PB counters/Mblocks. Fairly easy if you move correctly to keep them tied up with eachother. I can do 2v1 or 3v1 just fine most of the time and it was like that in most builds, though some were better for it than others. (red with stagger for example, was a huge help sometimes)
 

DaloLorn

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(red with stagger for example, was a huge help sometimes)

Yellow with PB ACM reduction was more effective, I think. Back in 1.4.2, I could survive most 2v1 or 3v1 encounters unless they gripped or managed to flank me - and to top it off, I often found myself deflecting their gunners' fire into the saberist(s) on top of keeping my BP stable.
 

SeV

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I do believe you were not in the beta when this was tested though.

Yeah not that, but we had a stupid stagger build some time ago in public, where if you got under half BP you would stagger on bodyhits. It was very bad.

Yellow with PB ACM reduction was more effective, I think. Back in 1.4.2, I could survive most 2v1 or 3v1 encounters unless they gripped or managed to flank me - and to top it off, I often found myself deflecting their gunners' fire into the saberist(s) on top of keeping my BP stable.

Yeah that was a help too, but red stagger was good for stalling when u got into a bad position, so it played more of a role. You didn't really go for a proper fight. Rather, you kept them at pay and tried to land Mblocks to finish one or two off so u could take the rest down. Goddamn it why did u have to change 1.4.2. Kurva. I miss the PB perk x.x
 

DaloLorn

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Yeah, I preferred to either keep them at bay until my team won, or (depending on the composition of the enemy group) either single out one guy for my counteroffensive to whittle down their numbers or hurry to wipe out all the gunners/saberists so I can wipe out the rest of them without being deterred by their synergies.
 

GoodOl'Ben

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Yeah not that, but we had a stupid stagger build some time ago in public, where if you got under half BP you would stagger on bodyhits. It was very bad.

Yes, that was bad. I believe the stagger duration was also increased for some stupid reason. The idea was for it to be a ministagger that does nothing more than create a small timing where you're either able to regain momentum or disrupt the enemy. Largely what Tempest seems to be experimenting with now.
 

SeV

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Yes, that was bad. I believe the stagger duration was also increased for some stupid reason. The idea was for it to be a ministagger that does nothing more than create a small timing where you're either able to regain momentum or disrupt the enemy. Largely what Tempest seems to be experimenting with now.

On that note, any ETA on the open beta Tempest? :)
 
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Smack her on the ass. That'll speed things up.

Or make things really, really awkward.

Think of it this way. You both benefit. It's the logic of callouses. Her buttcheeks, your facecheeks.
Win/Win!

Thank Chaos.

p.s.

I resisted the follow up. About taking a pounding and slapping.
I'm good person.
 

{Δ} Achilles

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Smack her on the ass. That'll speed things up.

Or make things really, really awkward.

Think of it this way. You both benefit. It's the logic of callouses. Her buttcheeks, your facecheeks.
Win/Win!

Thank Chaos.

p.s.

I resisted the follow up. About taking a pounding and slapping.
I'm good person.

MB2_BAR.JPG
 

Tempest

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I like the fact that you're bringing in visible cues such as staggers. I find that the more the dueling system relies on character animations to explain the effects of your actions, the better it will be.
Making it so that players can understand what's going on without having to have a ton of details explained to them by someone who's already been playing for years is the direction I want to go in.

I am personally not a big fan of having so many different kinds of indicators in your crosshair at all times, but I do understand their necessity when there are no other more clear-cut ways of explaining the situation present.
This is why I was going to have an option to keep the indicators as they are currently but allow for the extras if desired (of course that's assuming we can figure out the issue with what's making them break ._.).

Here's a prototype of something we had in betatesting a long time ago.

Basically the idea was for every bodyhit to trigger a stagger. It made the duel a lot easier to read without the need for crosshair indicators. The great part was that the fights became simple to follow. If someone was doing poorly on defense, they would be seen staggering a lot. A good counter-attack that lands before the enemy's hit lands would also trigger a stagger allowing the defender to take on the offensive role.

When the player can visibly understand their situation without having to consult too many any UI elements and their variations, the system is in an ideal place.
While staggers can be a good element of dueling, I (along with a lot of others) severely disliked the constant staggering of whatever build it was that had that implemented. They were happening too often and were basically another variant of obnoxiousness that we had escaped from after moving away from the RC1 nudging.

This is what I find to be lacking the most in the saber system today. I would love for the system to be in a place where a masterful player can kill the novice in 2-3 slashes and win fights against multiple enemies alone. That's what drew me to sabering back when I started playing. Watching some of the old pros take out 5 players alone. That was the beauty of the class. This was largely killed post-B17 though and even in B17 the fights lasted ages despite the skill gap between players being massive.

Increasing BP damage across the board while increasing BP regen across the board could be an interesting avenue to look into. This would make fights less of a slow burn even when your opponent is incapable of standing up for themselves.

Essentially this is what I would love to see happen when some scrubs attempt to gank a pro.

Just a few wild thoughts and I hope you find some ideas from my ramblings :D
This is actually what I'm trying to get back to. The time it takes for one player to beat another should be representative of the difference in experience/skill. Thus, a highly skilled player should be able to quickly dispatch with a new player (assuming proper play). If they're better than multiple players by a large margin, they should be able to beat them quickly as well. The first is already basically happening with what I've got done but I'm working on fine tuning some other small mechanics/pieces to help with the latter.

On that note, any ETA on the open beta Tempest? :)
I did some small tests with a handful of people and it seems that the consensus is to get the animations in line to get a true feel for the gameplay (they all liked the gameplay and vastly preferred it to what's on live but the animations being wonky took away from it). So that's what I'm working on at the moment.
 

Tempest

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I should probably stop posting about status updates before I have gotten full details from everyone involved with the process for getting Open Beta set up >_>. Makes me feel bad when circumstances change and people have to wait more (for which I apologize). I'm as eager for everyone to be able to play as everyone is to be able to try new things out! @Spaghetti has been working hard on getting the servers ready and file distribution prepped. Think we're truly this close to be ready to roll out (in the meantime of which I have been working on even more fun stuff so there'll be less downtime between the first batch of things to play around with and the next).
 

SeV

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I should probably stop posting about status updates before I have gotten full details from everyone involved with the process for getting Open Beta set up >_>.

Yeeeah. Makes me go CYKA BLYAT everi tiem.

Soon
 
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Also going to be trying out higher global BP damage multipliers to see how they pan out. BP regen will also be slightly increased so the higher damages with the recent drains on swings aren't completely overbearing.

  • Green
    • All swings 0.75x damage without ACM
  • *1.1 flashbacks*
 
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