Why do Heroes get everything a Sniper should not have?

[TwiceDead]

Dash, Dodge and Heal.

I'm not going to make any secret that I thoroughly despise all three and I am heavily biased against them, not as mechanics in and of themselves, but as a package. With all 3 they gain the staying power an assault class should have who's in a constant fire-fight, it seems weird to give it to someone who mostly hangs in the back(Granted, CQC snipes is a very tangible thing in this game).

It seems weird for SNIPERS to get all three of these abilities as all of them encourage and help you keeping your distance and ensure that you thrive there.
Against small blaster-fire, it's no big problem as you can duck behind cover and completely recover, making reckless exposure of yourself as you attempt to snipe targets less punishable. Against snipers, only headshots on you matter, making counter-snipes and sniper-duels lopsided. Should enemies close up on you, you still have the tools to avoid attacks and retreat to a safer position, and even if you don't retreat, you have more mobility than most to last a fight.

If Snipers only had a Sniper and a shitty pistol on their side limiting their effectiveness to long-range, then I could easily understand why they have the tools necessary to increase the gap between them and their foes with ease and ensure they can thrive there. Currently as things are, they have the almighty Pistol 3, which is downright godly compared to a Blaster Rifle, so they hardly fare any worse in a CQC engagement.

It'd make more sense in my mind that snipers get tools to cover their flanks, mines, traps, the sort of things to encourage enemies to keep their distance or approach with caution, but maybe that's not feasible for this games fast-paced gameplay.

Now I am not going to claim that BH's are any worse off (although against Heroes, they kind of are), as they have poison, tracking and TD's on their side. Not to mention the Disruptor. IMO Poison Darts shouldn't be hit-scan, but that's a discussion for another time.

 

[Dra-Gon]

You're looking at things just from one perspective: The "We take PR from Hero and give it to ET, but BHs have sniper rifles too, so we need to boost ETs" perspective.
You're completely ignoring that ETs aren't just filling one role, and what you propose would pretty much define sniper as the only viable tactic when playing ETs - You're giving a huge advantage to play as ET with sniper over ET that has no sniper rifle even though non-sniper ETs are on the frontline (thus need better hp/armor moveability) than their sniper-counterparts. Instead of sniper-ET being weaker than regular ET on defense, you actually boost it.
And how exactly does that solve anything? You basically make a copy of hero, just renamed it to ET.

I know that you write that it's just a sketch what you put in the spoiler tabs, but even there there are a few things which will never work out:
1) Dividing the ET class into subclasses. This never worked and it is why we don't have soldier roles like demolitionist, etc.
2) Why shouldn't ET sniper have rally?
3) Marksman training is basically "a must" else as you said they will be useless as snipers. And since you basically prevent them from getting anything else, you wouldn't have much of a freedom of choice but to invest points into it.
4) Giving hero a fire nade and sonic nade just removes the uniqueness of other classes (in this case, ETs/Cmds)
5) Your sonic nade idea is basically a merge of EMP and sonic in one package for half the price.
6) Getting old dodge back is imo not good idea. What it did previously was that people charged through when they were sure to dodge and then camped for some time to recharge dodge points. It lowered the required skill, because the game dodge bullets for you.
7) Why should any of this affect commander class?

Basically your proposition just took the unique weapons/abilities of other classes and put them all into one and divided one class into subclasses. That won't work well.

More so, you're still focused on incorrect problem. The problem is not with hero being OP because of his three other abilities - it just makes the problem more visible. The problem is in the mechanics associated with the projectile rifle itself.
I posted an idea to fixing it (although it is radical) and Mr_ouja posted another option how to fix it.

 

[Vitéz]

I totally dont understand you. My suggested sniper ET is basically a BH, with the very same attributes (HP, shield, speed, getup)... and the non-sniper ET is basically the very same ET as nowdays. How could any of them has any advantage over the other? Snipers arent forced to stay behind the frontline in MBII. Hero, BH, ARC, Mandalorian, these are the current snipers and all of them can fight in the frontlines without any problem, just like other classes like Soldier, ET, etc. If you really mean what you wrote, could you tell me why BH sniper has 100HP+80SP, and why ARC and Mando sniper has 100HP+100SP? Why could be balanced if these classes would remain the same, but the 4th sniper (ET in this case) would have 80HP+40SP?

About that 7 observation:

Spoiler

1) I disagree. The Soldiers *are* demolitions nowdays, since they can easily get 3 grenades / round, without sacrificing anything important. The only class what is capable to do such things is the Rebel ET with its 4 grenades / round. Others can have max 2 without sacrificing something important.
2) Thats nitpicking, I wrote that to give 2-2 unique abilities for both subclasses. But basically: the other 3 sniper classes dont have rally, there's no reason to give it only to the 4th one.
3) They wouldnt be useless as snipers without HP, shield, running speed and getup boost, because these have nothing to do with the damage of the sniper rifle. But if the BH sniper has these boost, why shouldnt we give these to the ET sniper? ET would be disadvantage as a single life class, because, it'd be the most weakest single life class in the game. About the "you wouldnt have much freedom": I disagree. Players could choose what they want to buy. For me: if I had to choose between +20HP, better speed and getup vs. an extra grenade, I'd pick the grenade, not the marksman training. Others may favour the HP. Some player is fine with A280 lvl1 or Blaster lvl2 and can get both. If it isnt freedom, I dont know what could be.
4) The current Fire Grenade and Sonic Grenade is useless, a Frag Grenade is always a better choice, so it doesnt give any uniqueness to ETs. Fire Grenade is only good to waste time for imps, but it'd be a good weapon against SBD: the SBD is slow, and if its burned, its forced to get into recovery mode, and its forced to stand still while the animation is going. So basically it'd make the SBD unable to act for a few seconds, or they'd get a lot of damage kinda quickly. Sonic Grenade is pointless nowdays. Even if it hits somebody, they only have to run away, the ET cant possible catch them. Buffing them to affect Droideka could make it useful, but it'd be too powerful for a class with reinforcements. And a Hero without projectile rifle would be totally helpless against a Droideka. And a changed Sonic Grenade what is suggested is still weaker than a Pulse Grenade or an Ion Pulse, because it wouldnt affect the escaping ability of the Droideka, while the others do.
5) Yes and no. As I said, a Hero without projectile rifle would be totally helpless against a Droideka. This is why sonic is boosted, and why is it removed from ET. But it has the very important difference that this grenade wouldnt stun the droideka, it could easily flee. Pulse is different: the Droideka is stunned, so if there's even 2 gunners, the Droideka is dead. On the other hand: the current sonic grenade doesnt affect drokdeia. This is unfair. And I didnt said anything about the point requirements. Just as lvl1 reinforcements is 2 points for Soldier, and 30 for clones, if a skill is placed into a new class, the points requirements also can change.
6) IMO the old Dodge was fine. The possibility to combine it with Reinforcements and Projectile Rifle was the problem. And its not possible to do that in my idea. Anyway, Dodge can be further improved. But having it ingame while its totally useless is a waste. I try to change that.
7) I try to get rid of the situation, that heroes like Han Solo or Leia Organa is using assassin weapons. This is totally unauthentic. I said it at least twice in this thread. Which other class could get sniper rifle: Soldier, Wook, Clonetrooper. Soldier is basically a weaker ET with more reinf. Wook with sniper is kinda... unauthentic. And the clones... ARC Trooper is like an advanced clonetrooper and they have their own sniper rifle, so it'd be silly to give one to the Clonetrooper. So ET remains. As I said, I dont try to do this because I have any problem with the balance or something, thats fine I think. But Hero has a weapon what only 1 character could possibly use in that class (DF Kyle), and thats a problem. With the very same logic, Rebel ET's could also get T21... they didnt use it in Star Wars, but hey, it doesnt matter, does it?

You talk about sonic and fire grenade as unique talents. I say you're literally right. But practically, using any of them is a waste, and players know it, this is why these abilities are "rarely used". My idea gives a real purpose for both of them: to deal with SBD and Droideka, when the class itself is weak against both of them without these abilities. ETs dont have any reason to pick sonic or fire grenade over frag grenade... that +5 points doesnt matter, since the classes are designed to actually get a frag grenade without sacrificing anything important.

You misunderstand me. I said it a lot: I dont think Hero is OP. I dont try to nerf it or anything. I just try to make it authentic. Thats what I try to do. The OP says it'd be great if snipers couldnt use those 3 abilities, because its OP. Again: I dont think its OP, I have another purpose, but my result is the same: snipers cant use those 3 abilities. And again: its not because they're OP, its because its unauthentic. And removing Projectile Rifle from Hero, but keep Hero a strong, useful class is trickier than it looks.

 

[Mr_Oujamaflip]

Mkay.

Take Proj from hero.

Give to ET.

Remove ability to use reinforcements with Proj.

Remove E11 from BH.

Therefore BHs are faster and have more hp, but ETs can get E11

 

[Vitéz]

Thats why I said its not as easy to take away Projectile Rifle from Hero as it looks
Hero would be pointless to be used, a Soldier or ET would be a much better choice.
ET sniper would be far weaker than a BH sniper. E11 is not a magical, god-like weapon to balance that.
Making 1 class totally unnecessary, and make the Rebel sniper weaker than the Imperial sniper would make Rebels weaker than the Imperials.

 

[Mr_Oujamaflip]

I disagree, Pistol 3 with dash is really effective vs lower hp enemies like soldier. E11 is a great all rounder and with a few grenades they're pretty potent.

Alternatively a buff to dodge could help since they're not going to be directly countering snipers after the proj removal.

Edit: I didn't read the weaker ET thing. Perhaps remove proj from BHs as well, Imperial snipers get disruptor, rebel snipers get proj, it would mean ET can be more effective vs BHs in sniper fights because they could popsnipe but Bhs could not.

 

[Vitéz]

Reinforcement makes the difference. A Soldier or an ET with reinforcement has more HP, more shield, more ammo and the same weapons than a Hero could have. But explosions, Sith and similiar stuffs can easily kill all of them instantly. But the Soldiers and ETs can revive via reinforcements. Dash cant compensate that. Thats why nobody use Hero without Proj. Rifle build nowdays. It doesnt worth it, because its a weak build comparing to other classes. Forcing the Hero players to use it wouldnt change that.

As far as I know, the Projectile Rifle was Zam Wesell's weapon. Removing the weapon from BH sounds...unnecessary. I want to make things more authentic, not less authentic. Anyway, a conversation where the answers arent read is kinda... interessting.

 

[Gumba]

I disagree, Pistol 3 with dash is really effective vs lower hp enemies like soldier.

That's actually wrong. P3 is pretty bad against soldiers because it takes 2 shots to kill them. If the sold moves right they are equal in a 1v1. Just that the soldier has 3 lifes.
E11 is way better to kill soldiers since you need like 3-4 shots which is way easier to do with a spray weapon like e11.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

Pistol 3 is for jedi, not soldier.
Because of the saber, the jedi has a bigger hit box and can be he hit easier.
Soldiers have a very small hitbox in comparison and is much harder to hit. And they are running and dodging, you need a spray weapon.
A e-11 or pray you have perfect aim in cqc range with the pistol.

 

[Mr_Oujamaflip]

Pistol 3 is for jedi, not soldier.
Because of the saber, the jedi has a bigger hit box and can be he hit easier.
Soldiers have a very small hitbox in comparison and is much harder to hit. And they are running and dodging, you need a spray weapon.
A e-11 or pray you have perfect aim in cqc range with the pistol.

My experiences with it over the past week or so are the other way round lol, capping soldiers and ETs all over the shop

 

[TwiceDead]

My experiences with it over the past week or so are the other way round lol, capping soldiers and ETs all over the shop

This has been my experience with Pistol 3 as well. It feels a lot easier to use than the E-11, and P3 perfectly accurate at all run-speeds as well.

 

[NERO]

The way the game currently is, E-11 is almost the best close-range weapon. The sheer firepower of T-21/deka/SBD/Bowcaster snuffs it out a bit, but the rate of fire + size of the shots is superior to pistols in close-range. Lack of accuracy doesn't matter much in close-range either, the spread is actually helpful in hitting an enemy who moves erratically.

Pistols are generally better weapons in long range. Perfect accuracy while running allows you to keep up better evasion than an opponent with an E-11, who has to walk to even hope to hit you properly, which you don't have to.