Why do Heroes get everything a Sniper should not have?

[TwiceDead]

Dash, Dodge and Heal.

I'm not going to make any secret that I thoroughly despise all three and I am heavily biased against them, not as mechanics in and of themselves, but as a package. With all 3 they gain the staying power an assault class should have who's in a constant fire-fight, it seems weird to give it to someone who mostly hangs in the back(Granted, CQC snipes is a very tangible thing in this game).

It seems weird for SNIPERS to get all three of these abilities as all of them encourage and help you keeping your distance and ensure that you thrive there.
Against small blaster-fire, it's no big problem as you can duck behind cover and completely recover, making reckless exposure of yourself as you attempt to snipe targets less punishable. Against snipers, only headshots on you matter, making counter-snipes and sniper-duels lopsided. Should enemies close up on you, you still have the tools to avoid attacks and retreat to a safer position, and even if you don't retreat, you have more mobility than most to last a fight.

If Snipers only had a Sniper and a shitty pistol on their side limiting their effectiveness to long-range, then I could easily understand why they have the tools necessary to increase the gap between them and their foes with ease and ensure they can thrive there. Currently as things are, they have the almighty Pistol 3, which is downright godly compared to a Blaster Rifle, so they hardly fare any worse in a CQC engagement.

It'd make more sense in my mind that snipers get tools to cover their flanks, mines, traps, the sort of things to encourage enemies to keep their distance or approach with caution, but maybe that's not feasible for this games fast-paced gameplay.

Now I am not going to claim that BH's are any worse off (although against Heroes, they kind of are), as they have poison, tracking and TD's on their side. Not to mention the Disruptor. IMO Poison Darts shouldn't be hit-scan, but that's a discussion for another time.

 

[Gumba]

This will be a long post...

I want to point out something here that the OP wrote:

The thing is, heroes are not snipers. The design is not Sniper class that got add stuff and go renamed. It's a versatile class with various abilities/weapons that also got the sniper rifle.
Why I write it is because being sniper specifies the role of the class, however the class was never designed to be sniper. It is a possibility to play like that but it's not the only way.
Also, by all means it completely makes no sense for sniper to have mines and whatnot. The idea of sniper role is that he is powerful ranged damager, with no defense. What mines would achieve is that they would get rid of that weakness. More so, it would just encourage players to "make a mine fort" and camp the whole round in one place.

That being said, if you guys want to remove sniper rifle from hero, because the "package" is too OP, then you may as well remove red style damage reduction, as siths can easily tank a PR's shot, fix the still happening insta-swings, prevent mandas from suicide Jihad rocket heroes, remove hitscan ruptor, grip & push/pull whoring, super lightning, etc. etc.
So yea, heroes are strong when talking about the whole package, but it seems to me that people forget that there are a lot of other random factors that go against them (like the list I wrote above). There is always something OP and something unfair. That makes the game so cool, because it's not guaranteed that you will be the best just because you are vet from B16.

Now to the whole problem written by the op.
The op considered that the package - Dash, Dodge and Heal in conjuction with Projectile Rifle (PR) is OP, hence it should be fixed. I partially agree here, but removing PR is not the good choice IMO. Rebels have no other class that can survive long enough and have only one life.
The idea that it would be given to elite trooper class seems nice at the start, but the bad thing about it is that you either have no survivability or you end up being reckless.
There are two options for implementing sniper role for ET:
a) The PR will cost too much so that you end up with only 1 life and PR or two lifes and no PR
b) The PR will cost enough so that you can still end up with 2 lifes and PR

add a)
This would make no sense. The PR would have to either cost 51+ points so that you don't have 30 points left for another life. I think everyone will agree that such idea is ridiculous.

Another option is to divide the point cost of the PR - still leave it at 51+ point cost, but for example leave it at two levels. This option solves nothing - PR is powerful enough, but balanced for the 20 point cost.
To make any reasonable change to it you're either left with the option to make it even more powerful for level 2, which would be ridiculous idea (I mean, what exactly needs boosting there?) or the other option is nerfing the weapon for level 1 so level 2 is current PR - but you end up with weapon which is worth sh*t unless you buy its level 2. The situation didn't change and you end up in the same situation as in the first option above (1 level for 51+ point cost), solved nothing and only did it in more complicated fashion.

Other option is to limit their class build - like it is for ARC's M5 upgrades, so once you buy reinfocements, you cannot buy PR or vice-versa. That idea seems more acceptable. But at the end of the day, what did you end up with? Just exactly the same class as current hero, with the exception that you are far weaker:

• Classes: Hero vs ET
• health and full armor: 100/60 vs 80/40
• movement speed: fast vs medium
• lives: 1 vs 1
• survival skills: 3 (not counting QT) vs 1 (not counting rally)
• nades: 10pt/frag vs 15pt/frag or 10pt/sonic

So what you ended up with is a weaker version of current hero. That may seem fine - the thead here is, after all, to nerf them. However when you have such weaker class, what does it promote? Only camping. This is not Battlefront, Battlefield, or other games where you get killed, wait 5 seconds and spawn at your base. Once you die in this game, you have to wait until the whole round ends, which takes mostly about 3-4 minutes per round on populated servers. That means you consider your life more precious if you want to enjoy and play the game. So you end up just camping. It's bad now when heroes don't do much but act like pu**ies standing back all the time when they have the power to actually move the whole team forward. But moving that logic onto someone even weaker (= making ETs snipers) just makes it worse. People will always be allured by PR, as it is relatively easy weapon with high damage so they will end up switching from heroes to ETs for the PR.

Thus this begs the question: Would this get rid of snipers or lesser their amount? Maybe by a tiny fraction (some people may end up enjoying the faster movement of heroes in the end, who knows), but it hugely increases the amount of camping people. They will camp even more than now, since they would have no means of escape like heroes do.

add b)
This is the exact opposite of option a). Here, since you have two lifes, you end up being daring. As an example of being daring, you can see even today how heroes "shotgun" siths - or at least attempt to do that. They get really close, aim, shoot. The FP drain is huge enough to pierce through sith's defense and kill him (unless he uses red for the dmg reduction). The thing is at the moment that since you have one life, but high moveability, the more experienced players see this as a 50:50 ratio of being successful, not to mention the coolness earned by being successful. So they end up trying to shotgun siths. But if you miss you're dead most of the time. Inexperienced players end up dead, there's not much else to say about that, so they're not trying that at all, until they are a lot more experienced.

But what will happen once you have two lifes? The scale increases in your favor, since you can attempt to shotgun an enemy and if you fu*k up, you have another life, so who gives a damn right? And once you are back down to one life? You end up like in add a) - a weak version of a hero. You either will go and say "fu*k it" and try to shotgun again, or you end up camping to prolong your last life.
So what would this give the game? Same thing as option a), but with the add negative factor of PR being misused.
Also, can you imagine the endless hordes of snipers?! Gosh. No thanks.

Conclusion to ET getting PR:
As you can see, both options don't really do you much good. You just move the problem from once place to another - but at the end of the day, you still have a problem and solved nothing.


Now back to the package of heroes three abilities: Dash, Dodge and Heal... and the PR.
Considering the stupid idea that you would actually buy all three abilities and PR, what do you end up with? Actually a weak hero.
To get each ability to level 3 you have to pay 15 points. That means all 3 abilities cost a total of 45 points. Add PR to that - another 20 points. So out of the 80 points you have relatively high survivability, but you are left with only 15 points for assault. That won't even get you E11 or pistol on level 3 (not to mention the ammo and armor shortage). All three abilities on their own - or even together - don't make you invulnerable or immortal.
Looking at the abilities, they don't actually do much:

• Dodge - the ability itself doesn't do much (contrary to what it did in previous version). It just dodges sniper weapons. Considering you pay 15 points for it, which is about 18,75% of your total points (thus no small amount), you can temporarily gain advantage against 3 weapons on the imp side, while the total amount of weapons imp side has is 21 (and I'm not even counting force powers). So that's not much of an advantage here.
• Dash - a bit on the "need to think this through" side. It increases heroe's survivability by great amount, as you can create a good distance between sith or dash away from rocket (if you time it right). There is a whole thread dedicated to "fixing" it, etc. But that is not relevant here. What is relevant here is that it does not really make you a better sniper. It enables you to quickly pop up to surprise enemies or get back to cover. That's about all. Is it bad and makes a hero with PR really OP? Not really.
• Heal - the most controversial of heroe's abilities. It doesn't make you invulnerable, but it is controversial because level 1 is as useful as level 3 or sometimes even more useful. I'll explain it more below.

Since heal is the only controversial ability that can be as useful (or even more) on level 1 as on level 3, there's no need to buy level 3 right? Congratulations, you just saved yourself 10 points! Now you have enough points (25 --> 15 you had + 10 you just saved) to also buy pistol 3 or e11 lvl 3 and ammo/armor to it. Now that makes you a lot more of a challenge!

Some of you may think that heal is fine, but I wrote that level 1 is as useful as level 3, so what gives, right? Just for understanding the problem you need to understand the ability itself, so let's take a look:

• Level 1 heals you to 20/40/60/80/100 hp,
• Level 2 heals you to 25/50/75/100 hp,
• Level 3 heals you to 33/66/100 hp.

The idea of heal is that you heal to specified treshold. So if you have level 1 and your hp is somewhere between 20 and 40 (excluding 20), you heal to 40 hp.
You have no control over damage you take, but what happens when you are shot to for example 25 hp? If you have

• heal level 1, you heal to 40, thus you healed 15 hp.
• heal level 2, you are at the treshold, so you end up healing nothing.
• heal level 3 you heal to 33 hp, so you healed 8 hp.

Do you see that? A 15 points ability healed you for 8 hp, a 10 point ability for 0 hp and a 5 point ability for 15 hp.
If it were the other way around all the time then it would be fine, but since you have no control over damage you take and level 1 can heal you better than level 2 or 3, then there is no need to buy those levels at all. They all are same in terms of healing power. That is what's controversial and ridiculous about it. On the old forums I already made a thread about fixing the "Heal" ability itself with the idea that you heal a certain amount of HP after some time with time prolonging and the effectiveness decreasing the more often the ability is fired/triggered and you can never heal more than the amount of damage you took on last hit.

And finally - the projectile rifle.
People here are annoyed of heroes because those 3 abilities give them high survivability. Well as I already pointed out - dodge does not, dash does not, and last but not least, heal does, but due to how controversial it is, it's sometimes more of a bother than anything and in a weird way it actually balances itself out in this matter.

However it seems to me that people completely go around and ignore the fact that you can run with your PR and still shoot accurately. You run, see an enemy, scope, stop holding the movement button, immediately press button to shoot and start running again. The total time you "stopped" (but actually just slowed down due to how the game works) is about .1 second?
The fact that you can pop out of corner, shoot and immediately run back is fine? That you can be crouching behind cover, scope, NOW WHILE SCOPING stand, shoot and crouch again (thus pop sniping) is fine?
You all seem very fine and accepting of the fact that you can do all this stuff with the PR like with any regular weapon (e.g. e11, pistol, etc.) and that is actual the problem. Instead from the role of "camping player who attack on long range" you have a "moving player who attacks on long/mid/close range using long-range weapon".
The projectile rifle's role changes from "sniping weapon" to "regular weapon with high damage, faster shots and ability scope" because the mechanics are for it completely the same! You misuse the weapon! And why would anyone use weak weapon when he can have powerful weapon?!

The problem is not that heroes have dodge/dash/heal, but that heroes can pop out of cover for 0.1 - 0.25 second to shoot at you accurately with powerful weapon and hide back. You may argue all you want, but at the end of the day, a wall or other obstacle gives you always a better survivability than dodge, heal and dash together when sniping.

As I tried to point out in this exceedingly long post, the actual problem is in:

• controversial heal - because there is no need to buy level 3, you get same survivability with just level 1 and save 10 points for something else
• projectile rifle mechanics - not the weapon itself, but the idea that you can run around with it and do stuff that doesn't make sense - like pop sniping.

What I propose for sniper rifle is for devs to try and add the breathing effect (e.g. your aim is never steady while scoping) with the idea of the aim getting gradually more accurate the longer you remain in scope (and at the start let it be really unsteady). Allow you to shoot from PR after at least 1 second passed since you stopped moving. You can shoot while crouching, you can shoot while standing, but you have to crouch or stand for at least 1 second. Changing from crouching to standing or vice-versa should be considered moving. This allows you to still surprise enemies, but it will disable the ability to just pop out of cover shoot and get back in.

Just try it. See what happens.

Thanks for reading.
Have fun and losta love <3

I'd like this 10 times if i could. Great post.
Although I don't like your point on the movement part of proj. If you take in account that it has firedelay and very slow movement speed you realize it's necessary to have against disruptors

 

[TwiceDead]

Holy Wall of Text! Good read, though.

On survivability:
Is the library information for Heal wrong/outdated? It says Level 1 heals at the same thresholds as Level 2 (25,50,75,100) and only level 3 increases the thresholds (33, 66, etc).

I disagree that Dodge and Dash does not grant any survivability, because they are abilities that keep you alive when you otherwise would be dead depending on usage and enemy aim. You really only need Dodge at level 1, as most Snipers are standing still and that's when enemies will take the shot on you, that or just before you stop, which is again when you are immobile... With that said though, as you said you are never really standing still for more than 0.3 seconds at most, so while the argument that dodge is useless is valid, it also only costs 2 points that you most likely can't spend on anything else worthwhile if you're going a P3 Proj. build, and it might end up saving you from some damage.

A wall will grant more survivability than anything else in the game, but most of the time everyone has access to a wall. I do agree that wall and pop sniping could be an issue... But as Gumba said, they are also kind of necessary.

Because then you have the Disruptor... You can't really lower the projectile rifle's usability that much since Disruptors exists unless you change those too, as good Disruptor players will jump-charge the weapon out of cover and fire half a second later, if a proj. user is forced to stand still in order to fire accurately against a Disruptor, he will most likely die. The Projectile from Proj. rifles is slow enough to be dodged from a crouching immobile position as soon as the Disruptor is done firing, and Disruptors have no travel-time... All of this depending on range ofcourse (thinking DOTF main-hallway length right now).

On camera-sway:
You could go about this by adding some insane camera-bobbing while scoped and moving though, or you could just make bullets make a U-turn inside the barrel and become ridiculously inaccurate when you move around.

Unprofessional opinion on camera-sway:
Ugh, I consider the addition of a scope-sway mechanic to simulate breathing and taking aim to be fucking cancer. Leave that for the psuedo-realistic modern shooters that are dime a dozen and leave my arcade shooters alone. This is just my opinion though, if it ends up getting implemented I would be salty but I would also probably be silent about it.

 

[Vitéz]

I dont think the current Hero (or any other class in Open mode) is overpowered or anything, IMO any class with reinforcement is more powerful than a mere Hero, because of the rules of the game mode. But heroes didnt use projectile rifle, the only character in that class who would be capable to do that is the DF Kyle. Thats the only reason I'm active in this topic and why I try to get rid of the sniper Hero. Not to nerf Hero, thats why focused to keep Hero a worthy class in my suggested idea.

No offense @Dra-Gon, but that post is very... bad. You told 2 obviously bad idea how could ET get a Projectile Rifle in the 1st half of your post, and you explained why are your ideas bad. Well... thank you. About the 2nd part of your post: these abilities had been analyzed in numerous topics in the past (even on the old forums), yet no changes happened. I'm kinda disappointed about it, because these abilities clearly dont fit into Open mode well, and basically almost all of them should be changed to make them balanced, useful, fair, you name it... and it goes for years. Its always good if someone reminds the community about this problem, but I'd be surprised if any huge-scale change would happen in the future.

About the running sniper problem: a fully charged dual pistol also can do very high damage, and it can be used while running... yet nobody complains. Same goes to EE3 sniper. Maybe to M5 sniper too... or Bowcaster... and T21. I dont have any problem with the "running snipers", because there are a lot of non-sniper weapon what can make high damage with the very same method, and because this can be outsmarted ingame. My only problem with your idea at the end, that what makes it impossible to hold the breath and be accurate from the beginning? Your proposal is just a mere nerf. CoD2 has a kinda good working system for this, maybe that would be implemented... but I dont think it'd be priority, or even necessary in MB.

 

[Dra-Gon]

Because then you have the Disruptor... You can't really lower the projectile rifle's usability that much since Disruptors exists unless you change those too, as good Disruptor players will jump-charge the weapon out of cover and fire half a second later, if a proj. user is forced to stand still in order to fire accurately against a Disruptor, he will most likely die. The Projectile from Proj. rifles is slow enough to be dodged from a crouching immobile position as soon as the Disruptor is done firing, and Disruptors have no travel-time... All of this depending on range ofcourse (thinking DOTF main-hallway length right now).

But that is exaclty the issue. Instead of sniper being static, you allow them to be really dynamic. Theres too many pros and too few cons to this to not be a viable and useful tactic.
Be it on me, even if it may sound radical, I would give a try to changing both weapons so you're unable to just pop up with them.
Leave the pop up tactics to gunners, not snipers. Leave ruptor as hitscan, let dodge be primary counter to it on reb side. See what happens.

No offense @Dra-Gon, but that post is very... bad. You told 2 obviously bad idea how could ET get a Projectile Rifle in the 1st half of your post, and you explained why are your ideas bad. Well... thank you. About the 2nd part of your post: these abilities had been analyzed in numerous topics in the past (even on the old forums), yet no changes happened. I'm kinda disappointed about it, because these abilities clearly dont fit into Open mode well, and basically almost all of them should be changed to make them balanced, useful, fair, you name it... and it goes for years. Its always good if someone reminds the community about this problem, but I'd be surprised if any huge-scale change would happen in the future.

No offense taken, however you should read it carefully. The idea "give ET projectile rifle and remove it from Heroes" was not my idea. I just explained in detail where such idea would lead and why was it bad idea in the first place.

 

[Vitéz]

I wrote a post (k, two posts) about this in this thread, where I suggested an idea to solve this "problem", what may could work, I think... of course on paper, I dont have any idea how could a change like this affect gameplay, normal balanced matches (1 class/team is allowed) and stuffs like that, but I doubt anyone could predict the effects of a huge-scale change like this perfectly. I just wanted to say that there are limitless bad ideas, what couldnt work, writing down all of them when you know they couldnt possibly work is kinda pointless.

 

[Dra-Gon]

Well, it's like with kids. If you don't give them proper answer they will bug you forever about it.
People seemed to like the idea (even from earlier threads on old forum). Because people seemed not to realize the consequences the change would bring, I written it out in detail, trying to show the cons and pros of such action. The cons outweighted the pros. Does that mean it should not be written down? No - because then you end up with people trying to debate the same idea for all the time repeatedly.
I like the "stop it before it grows" aproach to things

And it's not about making predictions perfectly either. I play this mode for some time (ok few years.... ok ok, a lot of years, I have no life ), and you get used to where people hide and when they're about to attack and when to defend over some time (hence why some players get accused of wh). Just apply a little bit of logic (e.g. worse conditions like ET sniper) to what you already know and you get what I wrote. I'm not making predictions here like "Vitéz will go sleep at 3 a.m."

Last but not least, what does it even matter if we write down why an idea is bad? Ain't that the whole purpose of this forum? If you stay related to the topic, it's always better to say why something won't work out/is bad idea than to simply diss someone or troll them.

 

[Vitéz]

Your example idea had more cons, than pros, others may have better ideas. Just because you cant say anything better atm, you dont have to write down all bad idea what you have, if you know it yourself they're bad. I dont mind to hear bad ideas, I have a lot of them too, but if the writer knows that this idea is bad, its totally unnecessary to share it. On the other hand, everybody is free to do what they want.... so I suggest lets move along.

 

[Supa]

I disagree that Dodge and Dash does not grant any survivability, because they are abilities that keep you alive when you otherwise would be dead depending on usage and enemy aim. You really only need Dodge at level 1, as most Snipers are standing still and that's when enemies will take the shot on you, that or just before you stop, which is again when you are immobile... With that said though, as you said you are never really standing still for more than 0.3 seconds at most, so while the argument that dodge is useless is valid, it also only costs 2 points that you most likely can't spend on anything else worthwhile if you're going a P3 Proj. build, and it might end up saving you from some damage.

Dodge and dash do grant survivability, but at their peak they also had the unfortunate side effect of making projectile really strong. Dodge has been nerfed to an almost unusable state as a result, and dash was just given to the class to try and give the class some of the survivability that was taken away from them when dodge was nerfed.

Unfortunately, dash doesn't really provide what it needs to. It helps against Sith, and people that can't aim which is never brought up when discussing game balance, but it isn't really a tool that gives them the ability to provide a front-line distraction.

A wall will grant more survivability than anything else in the game, but most of the time everyone has access to a wall. I do agree that wall and pop sniping could be an issue... But as Gumba said, they are also kind of necessary.

Yes, but dodge, and dash as it was initially intended to be, were supposed to provide a more upfront or proactive form of survivability besides running from cover to cover and praying you don't get shot.

Because then you have the Disruptor... You can't really lower the projectile rifle's usability that much since Disruptors exists unless you change those too, as good Disruptor players will jump-charge the weapon out of cover and fire half a second later, if a proj. user is forced to stand still in order to fire accurately against a Disruptor, he will most likely die. The Projectile from Proj. rifles is slow enough to be dodged from a crouching immobile position as soon as the Disruptor is done firing, and Disruptors have no travel-time... All of this depending on range ofcourse (thinking DOTF main-hallway length right now).

Disruptor isn't as big a problem as people think it is. Maps that provide easily accessible areas where a disruptor can setup and have complete cover is a problem. Without those areas, your options are to sit out in the open while you charge, or pop-snipe with disruptor which isn't nearly as effective as projectile rifle pop-sniping.

On camera-sway:
You could go about this by adding some insane camera-bobbing while scoped and moving though, or you could just make bullets make a U-turn inside the barrel and become ridiculously inaccurate when you move around.

I think I may have suggested this, and was told it was impossible with the current engine.

 

[SomeGuy]

Honestly I feel the only reason Heroes ever got a sniper rifle from way back in the beginning was because Villains had it too. They had two lives back then, changed to BH and ET was created. Now each team has 1 life snipers. I think the point there was having a Sniper with respawn ability was a bit much. If it does get given to ET then they should not be able to get Reinforcement and Proj. To compensate, if they get the Proj their health is upped to 100 and max armor 60(? unsure what it is off the top of my head). Give Rally to heroes and now little Rebel Troopers are spawning everywhere.

For my opinion of dodge... I feel it is a complete waste of points now. So seeing someone who actually dodges a sniper shot makes you rage inside...

 

[Dra-Gon]

Considering ETs would get the PR, why should a sniper ET have more hp/armor than frontline-role ET ?

 

[Vitéz]

To compensate the missing reinforcements... assuming you dont want to do an attempt against the mod and make projectile rifle and reinforcements available together of course. To be honest rifle3 clone should get more HP than the rifle2 version... the lower HP is to balance the reinforcements, not because the trained Stormtroopers or the trained Clonetroopers were less "healthy" (?) than the untrained heroes, like Leia.

 

[Dra-Gon]

Why should you get compensated for not buying reinfocements? Are you somehow compensated for not buying A280/T21? Are you somehow compensated for not buying anything at all?
I can play 1 life ET even now - I will have 2 frag nades instead of additional life. No need to compensate me for anything tbh.

 

[StarWarsGeek]

If it does get given to ET then they should not be able to get Reinforcement and Proj.

This sort of thing is something that I think should be avoided. Disabling the ability to purchase other abilities based on the purchase of another ability is awkward IMO. I dislike that it's already done with deka abilities and ARC M5 attachments (deka abilities could be on separate keys and M5 attachments could use weaponmode toggle). The things a player can get should just be limited by what class they're playing and the point costs of those abilities.

If proj costed 30 points, an ET that got proj + reinf could only get E-11 level 2 or A280 level 1 and a little ammo/armor. If they wanted a grenade they couldn't even get a good backup weapon. That seems sufficiently weak to me if they opt to try buying both proj and reinf.

 

[Vitéz]

Compensating for not buying reinforcements? Its maybe just me, but for me its totally obvious that the game should be force the player to choose: reinf (so play as trooper) or proj. rifle (so play as sniper), and it wouldnt be possible to choose both, to be a sniper with 2 lives. Since its imperial sniper counterpar, the BH has 100 HP, its obvious that the sniper ET (without reinf) also should have 100 HP. But as I said, its maybe just me.

Again: its maybe just me but an ET with Proj. Rifle, Blaster2 and Reinf would be veeeery OP. This is why I suggested a little more complicated idea, than just simply give Proj. Rifle to ET to make it OP, also making Hero totally useless.

 

[Dra-Gon]

I guess I simply "don't see the obvious" here that you write about, so I'll put my 2 cents in:
MB is not based on having exact copy of each class on each side. Just because BH has 100 hp is no valid reason for giving ET 100 hp as well, as both classes are completely different in both play style and the choice of weapons.
It would be like saying you need to give ARC (or any other class for that matter) a jetpack because mandas have one.
In this sense, the ET sniper should also get movement speed buff, because their counterpart - BHs - have one.
Also just for the record, bh has 100/80 at armor 3 - so would you agree that an ET sniper should get a 20/40 boost just because he chose sniper rifle?

And you still didn't address why an ET sniper, who is supposed to keep his distance and cover, should have higher survivability than a close-range ET who is actually in the middle of all the fight. That just doesn't add up. More so, you are presenting that there are only two ways to play an ET:
An ET with sniper rifle, but 1 life and an ET with 2 lifes but no sniper rifle. But it is a viable option and tactic to actually also play an ET with only 1 life and no sniper rifle. How exactly would you balance that?

 

[Mr_Oujamaflip]

I guess I simply "don't see the obvious" here that you write about, so I'll put my 2 cents in:
MB is not based on having exact copy of each class on each side. Just because BH has 100 hp is no valid reason for giving ET 100 hp as well, as both classes are completely different in both play style and the choice of weapons.
It would be like saying you need to give ARC (or any other class for that matter) a jetpack because mandas have one.
In this sense, the ET sniper should also get movement speed buff, because their counterpart - BHs - have one.
Also just for the record, bh has 100/80 at armor 3 - are you suggesting an ET sniper should get a 20/40 boost just because he chose sniper rifle?

And you still didn't address why an ET sniper, who is supposed to keep his distance and cover, should have higher survivability than a close-range ET who is actually in the middle of all the fight. That just doesn't add up. More so, you are presenting that there are only two ways to play an ET:
An ET with sniper rifle, but 1 life and an ET with 2 lifes but no sniper rifle. But it is a viable option and tactic to actually also play an ET with only 1 life and no sniper rifle. How exactly would you balance that?

IMO if you're going to want parity you should be nerfing BH not buffing ET

 

[TwiceDead]

Unfortunately, dash doesn't really provide what it needs to. It helps against Sith, and people that can't aim which is never brought up when discussing game balance, but it isn't really a tool that gives them the ability to provide a front-line distraction.

If the idea was that Heroes were to be kind of a vanguard, they seem way too squishy for that. Granted they have a pretty high mobility, but that's it. It helps, but it's not going to help them tank blaster-bolts shot at them by the imps while simultaneously trying not to get in the way of their teammates cover-fire. I'd argue that Wookies and Jedi provide a much better frontline distraction than heroes do at the moment and already fill those roles quite nicely, with the exception of the Hero QT grenades.

Yes, but dodge, and dash as it was initially intended to be, were supposed to provide a more upfront or proactive form of survivability besides running from cover to cover and praying you don't get shot.

Throwing a potentially horrible idea out right now, but why not give Hero's something akin to the BH's poison darts?

Timed shield-darts or something providing the same damage reduction as Armor does, but it doesn't last long and are limited-use in the same way poison-darts are. If implemented the amount could be adjusted. This makes the Hero himself less of a frontline fighter, sure, but he will stay close to the ones that are fighting in the front to provide support. Values like armor amount, duration and point-cost could be adjusted when it came to the balancing of the power, and as long as they don't stack I think it could work. I'd argue it wouldn't be like a heal per-se, as it's only a temporary protection that wouldn't last very long, more like an incentive for your teammates to push their limits a bit.

There would be a thematic problem with this though... As I can't recall any heroic figure in star-wars providing portable shield-generators.

I think I may have suggested this, and was told it was impossible with the current engine.

Damn you engine limitations.

This sort of thing is something that I think should be avoided. Disabling the ability to purchase other abilities based on the purchase of another ability is awkward IMO. I dislike that it's already done with deka abilities and ARC M5 attachments (deka abilities could be on separate keys and M5 attachments could use weaponmode toggle). The things a player can get should just be limited by what class they're playing and the point costs of those abilities.

If proj costed 30 points, an ET that got proj + reinf could only get E-11 level 2 or A280 level 1 and a little ammo/armor. If they wanted a grenade they couldn't even get a good backup weapon. That seems sufficiently weak to me if they opt to try buying both proj and reinf.

I like what they've done with the Deka and the Arc when it comes to choosing your strengths but forfeiting the others. I'd argue that it feels like you can have several people play the same thing but fill different roles and enforcing that, promoting teamplay and coordinating squad composition in the process.

The Deka for instance at the moment can be played like a hit'n runner with Quick Deploy and Shield Projection 3,( QD is buggy though, pray it works when it needs to!) or as a flanking-blockade by investing the points you'd use in quick-deploy in shield-strength, firepower and power-management, hoping to scramble and take out enemies by blocking their path and gunning them down before they take down your shields and take out your vulnerable hull.

Snipers are very powerful though, they're not necessarily limited to long-range engagements and can be quite effective up close. An ET with two lives would be a lot more reckless than somebody with one because he knows that even if he fucks up he can just be more careful on his second go. Balancing by point-allocation isn't always enough.

 

[Mr_Oujamaflip]

Snipers are very powerful though, they're not necessarily limited to long-range engagements and can be quite effective up close. An ET with two lives would be a lot more reckless than somebody with one because he knows that even if he fucks up he can just be more careful on his second go. Balancing by point-allocation isn't always enough.

I think this is a problem in itself.

Someone was saying on BG server the other day about if a sniper gets hit, it knocks him out of scope. Could make shotgunning riskier.

 

[Supa]

I think this is a problem in itself.

Someone was saying on BG server the other day about if a sniper gets hit, it knocks him out of scope. Could make shotgunning riskier.

I agree with this. Speaking from experience, there is nothing more frustrating than getting sniped by someone that you're hitting. There is nothing simulating losing focus when you're getting shot while in scope, so where your mouse was when you started getting shit is where your shot will fire regardless of all of the head-bobbing nonsense.

 

[Vitéz]

@Dra-Gon: Its not about being the same as the counterpar class, only soldiers have that anyway. But...
ET Sniper: Pistol2, Blaster3, A280_3, Proj. Rifle, Frag Grenade, Sonic Grenade, 80HP, 40 Armor, normal getup
HB: Pistol3, Blaster3, A280_3, Proj. Rifle, Disruptor, TD, Poison Dart, Tracker Dart, 100HP, 80 Armor, fast getup, gunkick

This is not about making them the same, BH will still remain more versatile. But assuming the classes above, its clear that the ET is much more weaker, than the BH, who is also a sniper. This is why at least the HP and the shield should be pumped up if an ET is using a sniper build without reinforcements. The nerfed HP and shield for multi-life classes is there to compensate reinforcements, if it is missing, the HP and shield nerf is unnecessary and unfair. This is why an ET sniper should have better survivability: because the reinforcements is missing. Not to mention that BH, ARC and Mandalorian also have 100HP and 80/100 Armor, also in sniper mode. A 80HP, 40 Armor sniper would be a joke comparing to these classes. And I didnt said give ET that 20HP, 40 Armor boost for free, make it an ability, and if the players want to spent points on a skill like this, they could. This is why its Open mode, its unnecessary to hard code everything, like it is happenins usually. And again: its not about simply giving a Proj. Rifle to ET, and maybe make sure that they cant combine it with Reinforcements. Because that tactic wouldnt work, some classes could be either OP (ET sniper with reinf if you let them get both abilities) or useless (Hero without Proj. Rifle and without compensation). Its not that easy.

This is my idea. Just to show it for you, what I'm thinking about, because I have a feeling we dont really understand each other and that's what leads to some misunderstandings.

Spoiler

Rebel ET
(abilities marked with - are common skills, * are the trooper skills
+ are the sniper skills, purchasing * abilities locks + abilities and vica-versa)
- Pistol 2
- Blaster 3
- A280 3
- Frag Grenade 1
- Concussion Grenade 2

* Reinforcements
* Rally 

+ Proj. Rifle
+ Marksman Training //more HP, better running speed and getup

* Armour //for trooper build
+ Armour //for sniper build
- Ammo

Hero
- Pistol 3
- Blaster 3

- Frag Grenade 3
- Sonic Grenade 3 //should be buffed to temporary either overheat the Droideka's weapons, or disable its shield, or both... so to force the Deka to flee
- Fire Grenade 3 //its a good counter against SBD

- Dash 2
- Dodge 3 //its the old, usable dodge
- Heal 3 //still saying that this should be replaced with Bacta Canisters, but nvm
- QT //should work only with frag grenade secondary mode, using this should make more Force damage to Sith, but Dash is still more versatile than this

- Armour
- Ammo

Imperial ET
(abilities marked with - are common skills, * are the trooper skills
+ are the officer skills, purchasing * abilities locks + abilities and vica-versa)
- Pistol 2
- Blaster 3
- T21 3
- Frag Grenade 1
- Concussion Grenade 2

* Reinforcements
* Rally

+ Dodge 2 //its also the old, usable dodge
+ Officer Training //more HP, better running speed and getup

* Armour //for trooper build
+ Armour //for officer build
- Ammo

I'm not saying this is "perfect" or even finished. I tried to keep stuffs balanced and prevent using builds what could be OP. Also tried to make Hero not-useless after the Proj. Rifle is removed... but tbh I still say that my Hero build could be weak, but I dont know what kind-of authentic skills could be used there. But IMO these classes are much more authentic than the current versions. And this is why I try to make changes here: to make things more authentic.