The teamkill and damage thread

[BigBossBigTeef]

Alright, I have several gripes with the team damage system and team killing.
Mostly from how random it can be with points, sometimes I get punished for 200, sometimes 100.
No im not complaining about bad players, I am complaining about the system we use when we punish for team kills.

There was an incident where I accidentally killed a jedi when I got pushed from behind and I was still shooting while sliding across the floor.
I have a habit of crouch shooting, but I managed to kill the jedi while I was sliding across the floor and somehow got the sith kill as well.

I got punished for 400 points, and I was recording the demo at the time and my points shot up to 700 tk points from 1 team kill.
I had like 216 before from a few grenade damages but this was the 1st tk of the map and I got punished for 400 points.

I managed to get 700 points within my first 5 minutes of the map.
At that point I just started going solo and avoided my team all together because I didn't want to get temp banned.
I accidentally saved over the demo with the next map so I can't produce the recording.

But this severely confused me, I asked AOD deku who is apart of the clan that owns the server and asked him if you can get punished with 400 points.
He said no, but he also didn't know either.
There was a time I played where I got team killed on deathstar from force lighting and it was a spawn kill, and how I only punished for 66 points.
He wasted one of my 3 lives and I only punished for 66 points.

So I started thinking, does the team damage scale to classes?
Well there was another occurrence yesterday where I somehow killed a clone with a concussion grenade and got the same amount of points I normally get when I kill a jedi.

So what does it do to dictate how much each punishment calculates?
Because it just seems random to me.

 

[Supa]

I've actually been thinking of ways to improve the penalty system myself, because at the moment I feel like people are punishing more for accidents than they are for purposeful TK's or people just being really stupid, irregardless of the reason they were team killed. I'm not saying team killing is justifiable, but there are times where I feel as though I've done my team a service by killing a potential hazard.

It would be great if the system worked in tiers, for example. The first TK gets you significantly fewer points, unless the person that team killed and the person that got team killed are alone and there are no enemies around. In that case I think it's safe to assume that the person that team killed was being stupid or did it on purpose and deserve the points. The more you team kill, the more points you get, and this multiplies on a per team kill basis.

This serves a double purpose. You would get fewer points for killing a teammate if enemies are around. This is sort of to help discourage Jedi/Sith from running in and disrupting their own teammates who are trying to take care of enemies that were knocked down by explosives or push and pull. Something a lot of newer Jedi don't understand is that this is a team game. Just because you got the knock down doesn't mean you necessarily need to get the kill for it as well if it puts your teammates in danger.

The number of points you accumulate for hitting an ally would also multiply the more you hit them. If you hit the same target the first time, for example, you get points equal to maybe 25% of the damage dealt, while the second shot would be double that or something.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

That does sound a lot better, but the question is can that be done with what we have and how long would that take to code?

 

[Supa]

I think the system is currently linear with how you get points around the board. 30 points for kicks of any kind, then the rest is a percentage of the damage dealt to a teammate. For all I know you do get more points the more you hit someone, but it feels really aggressive initially. Regardless of what people say, accidents in this game are bound to happen. Getting shot once isn't really enough to punish someone for.

66 points for a punish in a three life class.
100 points for a punish on a two life class.
200 points for a punish on a one life class.
400 points for a punish on a one life class at the beginning of the round if I'm remembering that correctly. I don't see this one very often so I may be mistaken, but it does exist.

As for if it's possible and how long will it take to get done, I'm not really sure I would have to consult one of our programmers. I haven't brought it up internally because they all have their own projects right now that are slightly more important than the penalty system.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

Would a community vote increase the order this would be dealt?

 

[Supa]

Would a community vote increase the order this would be dealt?

No, this isn't a democracy.

It will be taken care of if someone wants to pick it up, but until then it's working and any changes made would be considered quality of life, and thus not as important as other items on the current list for future releases.

 

[Preston]

Its by classes I think, and also you get tk points by just tking, then extra like 200 by !p. Max tk points is by server

 

[Szunti]

My two problems are:

1. I can't forgive when I am just hit, but not killed. What if I don't want to punish at all, because I appreciate that the other one tried to help me? I think at least a couple of new players don't dare shooting because they were yelled at. But I like when they shoot, even if they hit me. If they aim, they will probably hit the enemy more. At worst they are practicing how to (not) help teammates.
   
2. To a much less extent: For punish points it only matters who had the killing shot. You can get the same 200 points for a pistol shot on the foot.

 

[Sonichu]

Any chance of a TK point reduction for enemy grenades/rockets that are force pushed? I often see a TD sailing at a group of players and all the Jedi leap away rather than attempting to push it back. The chance of it still killing team mates is so high many people aren't willing to even make the attempt and get booted for their effort.

 

[Supa]

Grenades and rockets are tricky. I don't think we should, because it's a critical decision that you have to make. There are some people that push every grenade and rocket, and some people that don't push a single grenade and rocket. There are times where you need to know when to push, and other times where you should just let it go. Sacrifices are sometimes necessary or unavoidable.

 

[Sonichu]

Grenades and rockets are tricky. I don't think we should, because it's a critical decision that you have to make. There are some people that push every grenade and rocket, and some people that don't push a single grenade and rocket. There are times where you need to know when to push, and other times where you should just let it go. Sacrifices are sometimes necessary or unavoidable.

I totally agree it should have consequences, it's just a bummer that one force push can take a player with 0 TK points to a temporary ban instantly despite good intentions. It has happened to me on occasion on busy servers because the force push's effect on a grenade isn't very predicable. By design, Jedi should be playing more as support than an offensive role, but one of their most core support abilities is a game of Russian Roulette. Maybe a Force pushed grenade could be restricted to "Forgive" or "Close" but not punishing?

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

Good intentions huh?
I think they are a little "too good".

I recall you murdering your team with grenades a lot when I played with you.
Maybe try concussions, less AOE and less consequences.

 

[Sonichu]

Good intentions huh?
I think they are a little "too good".

I recall you murdering your team with grenades a lot when I played with you.
Maybe try concussions, less AOE and less consequences.

I cannot confirm or deny what happens after my third double gin and tonic. As a Jedi/sith I do try to play defensively. As a Commander with fire nades... Not so much

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

You set me on fire 4 times one map.
I forgave them, but you managed to set me on fire 4 times.

It made me think you were trolling, but no just a really bad throwing arm.
I got over it but you really pissed off the team that map.

 

[Sonichu]

You set me on fire 4 times one map.
I forgave them, but you managed to set me on fire 4 times.

It made me think you were trolling, but no just a really bad throwing arm.
I got over it but you really pissed off the team that map.

My apologies.

 

[NERO]

one of their most core support abilities is a game of Russian Roulette.

It's not exactly random, it's just kind of difficult to get used to how the physics and the cone of push work. Once you've got those down you can be pretty certain where the nade flies, unless you push it with the wrong part of the cone, usually in situations where the nade is flying really fast and you can't react to it properly.

I don't think there's really any good way to make pushing grenades and rockets be less punishing without that being easy to abuse. The tiered point system Supa talks about would be really good.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ Tier'd tk system or riot. ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ

 

[Revanic]

TK execution should only really happen on an actual kill and not stray blasts that happen to hit someones foot. It reduces team-play if it can't understand that there will be some unavoidable TK damage. I should never be punished for someone else's stupid decision.

There definitely should be some damage reduction for teammates, perfect team play with no TKing at all isn't viable...

 

[Preston]

TK execution should only really happen on an actual kill and not stray blasts that happen to hit someones foot. It reduces team-play if it can't understand that there will be some unavoidable TK damage. I should never be punished for someone else's stupid decision.

There definitely should be some damage reduction for teammates, perfect team play with no TKing at all isn't viable...

I have mixed feeling on tk damage reduction

 

[Supa]

Eh, with the changes I proposed if you have so many penalty points accidentally TKing people then you need to settle down and start thinking before you do stuff. Or you're doing it on purpose.

Either way, you have a problem. The system I proposed doesn't exactly encourage accidental team fighting in those compact hallways like DOTF main, Echobase main and Lunarbase main, but they won't be punished as harshly.