The Sniper Dilemma

[CC-1119 'Appo']

This has been a long time coming. I've made a thread on this in the past but not with the same finality of this one. Again, poll results are not the metric by which developers will take action. It is merely a way to quantify where the community views the suggestions made in this OP and which of the offered approaches they prefer.

As the title of this thread suggests, this post will be discussing the issue of Snipers in Moviebattles II and the dilemma they propose with their current state of balance. Snipers are detrimental to the balance of Moviebattles II. I hold the view that they are largely responsible not only for some of the terrible balance decisions which exist in the game (dodge) but also for a large part of player dissatisfaction and thus low player retention among new players. Additionally, they are extremely troubling for high level play with large swathes of the gunner versus gunner meta being focused solely on sniper play as gunners have little to no chance to compete against a competent sniper without one of their own.

I base this view on the following facts. I have spoiler tagged them below so they do not take up too much of the post on first viewing as this is going to be a long one already without justifications taking up half the page.

Spoiler

1.) Snipers are capable of taking anywhere from 60% to 100% of a player's overall HP away with a single hit. This means they can effectively negate a skilled opponent's ability to fight if they do not also deploy a sniper rifle as even a single glancing hit can potentially deal enough damage to cripple a player for the rest of a round. This is something that has drastically impacted high level play in MBII to the point that there is almost no point competing without playing a sniper.

2.) Sniper projectiles travel significantly faster than any other weapon in the game. This means that at high level, a sniper is able to fire a shot and avoid return fire consistently. In good hands this is partially responsible for the creation of a situation where most skilled players end up playing sniper because there is no way to compete against a good player with the projectile rifle using an E-11 at a distance.

3.) Snipers are far too cheap. In terms of point economic impact an upgraded Westar M5 costs more than a Projectile Rifle. An upgraded E-11 costs more than a Disruptor. This means that you can often times make sniper builds which not only have these incredibly deadly primary weapons, but also can afford to run high armour, high ammo and decent sidearm builds. Or even builds that contain additional tools such as thermal detonators. This is a pretty blatant example of poor point balancing and I'm amazed this has never been addressed before now.

4.) Snipers require no extra skill that regular gunnery does not also require. The only difference is that you must practice with the sniper instead of a regular gun to get a feel for the projectile speeds of the weapons and the timing for things like the Disruptor. This is most evident on the Disruptor which is one of the most busted weapons in game in good hands. As someone who routinely dukes it out with some of the best players EU has to offer, watching what a Quake vet can do with any sniper rifle is disgusting. Watching what they can do with a Disruptor is downright disgraceful for the mod.

5.) Snipers have no range limitation. There is no situation in which they are not able to compete, unlike regular guns, which are unable to effectively deal with long range targets. This is problematic because it allows the weapons to not only function as precision killers but also as a shotgun of sorts and indeed they often see use in this capacity, being used to hold tight angles and dissuade anyone from pushing there lest they risk taking a hit that will cripple or outright kill them.

6.) Snipers add nothing to the Open gamemode, in fact they take away from the overall skill level of the mode. A player with a sniper is able to reliably shut down almost every single class in the game that is not another sniper in almost every situation even if they are on a similar skill level with the other gunner. The risk of taking on a sniper especially one wielded by a player that is competent with its use is such that pushing an angle without a jedi/sith to dislodge them or block the shot is only done in desperation.

7.) Sniper gameplay is enjoyable only for the sniper themselves. This is less an argument on a competitive front, but one from a player enjoyment front. Sniper gameplay in almost every shooter is enjoyable primarily for the sniper. The player without a sniper often only experiences instant death or serious injury from an opponent they had no chance of seeing or no chance of effectively engaging. This is something that is very true across many games and is why many games will implement mechanics to shut down snipers such as smoke grenades/line of sight disruption tools or significant projectile drop over distance. MBII however has no such utility, which creates an obvious issue for a weapon system that was ripped straight out of Counter-Strike, to not have its intended counter be available.

As with my post on dodge, I really shouldn’t have to explain why snipers are such a huge issue in MBII as it should be rather obvious. But for those who are uncertain, the largest issue with snipers is the following: A single hit can potentially cripple a player’s entire capability to fight back. The weapon functionally allows a sniper to ignore the skill of their opponent and shut them down without them having an opportunity to compete unless they also have a sniper rifle. And I haven't even properly touched on the M5 scoped or the EE-3 scoped in detail both of which have the potential to be just as if not more disgusting than the projectile rifle/disruptor in certain situations. The key point I’m trying to get across here is that snipers are drastically over performing in MBII. They are long overdue for a fix.

I am amazed that it has not been addressed before today but I consider snipers one of the biggest threats to player retention in Moviebattles II. And not even necessarily just to new/inexperienced shooter players, I have personally introduced just under a dozen of my close friends who have been playing FPS games at a competitive/LAN level with me since the late 90s to MBII, almost all of them came to the same view without me bringing it up to them. Why would they bother playing regular gunner classes when they can take a Hero or a Bounty Hunter class and simply use the sniper to land killing blows on people who have almost no chance of retaliating at range against them? And that’s not even mentioning the amazing sidearms and utility options they can afford to take alongside their sniper.

This is an incredibly blatant and poorly designed weapon archetype that exists only the way it does because most of the balance for MBII was lifted straight out of Counter-Strike unfortunately it is also very obvious that the people who did lift this weapon from Counter-Strike are also not very good at FPS games. The only reason why the AWP in Counter-Strike is not considered overpowered is because almost any weapon can 1-shot at any range so long as they land headshots. However in Moviebattles II, this is not possible. Not only do regular projectiles have to travel the distance that a sniper projectile clears in double or triple the time of a regular firearm but they do not deal sufficient damage to dissuade hit trading. Fundamentally the interaction between regular guns and snipers is fucked and has been fucked for years.

With that out of the way, not only do I consider snipers problematic for the reasons listed above but I also consider them problematic on a thematic level as well. I would be willing to put money on a wager that a great many people who have tried MBII over the years have enjoyed their time with it as a gunner or as a saberist until they ran into their first high level sniper. At which point the game's meta drastically shifted, from being able to take risks and push angles to having to rely wholly on jedi/sith to dislodge snipers if they want to have any hope of pushing without either being seriously injured for the rest of their current life or outright dying in a single hit.

That's not even to mention that there are no tools in this game which can counter snipers effectively outside of other snipers. There are no smoke grenades, no portable shields, nothing a regular gunner can really do to compete with a sniper short of hoping that the sniper misses enough shots that they can close the distance to where they can more reliably land hits, though even closing the distance is not guaranteed as a sniper is no less lethal up close than at range.

I'm going to be breaking down the suggestions into each specific sniper weapon system and then proposing a few changes for each weapon system, this should allow me to more effectively cover the issues each sniper system has at this point in time.

WESTAR-M5 SCOPED
The ARC class really has no need of a sniper system. A class this mobile, capable of accessing very difficult to counter positions and ambush points does not need access to a weapon which can reliably 2-shot half of the classes in-game. As a result, all of the proposed changes remove the sniper function from the scope mode and instead give it a different role. Some of these changes are not intended to make the attachment a viable choice for competitive play but simply to give it a different role. The third option for example has the potential to be useful on some larger maps and custom maps which have less obvious sight lines, though will likely not be of much use on maps like DOTF.

Option One, Remove the scoped attachment from open. This is my preferred option as an ARC main simply because I do not believe the class requires a sniper system of any kind. I've brainstormed with possible replacements for it but honestly, there's nothing that could be added to ARC as a weapon attachment that would not risk stepping on the toes of other classes/equipment for other classes. There is no need for a replacement on this front, given that the only reason the M5 scoped really existed was to give the ARC class a way to compete with the sniper meta which will hopefully be shaken up or completely smashed with the changes proposed in here.

Option Two, Replace the sniper mode with a burst fire mode, similar to the ET's A280. This firemode should however not benefit from the ARC's inherent accuracy boost when running a rank 2 Westar-M5 and should instead only be accurate while walking, crouching or standing still. The firemode should result in an increased rate of fire for the burst, firing all of the shots in the burst within a significantly faster timespan, with a cooldown window thereafter similar to other burst fire weapons.

Option Three, Decrease the velocity of the sniper mode's projectiles to that of the standard non-scoped shot. Decrease the damage of the sniper mode's projectiles to that of the standard non-scoped shot. Decrease the ammunition usage of each shot down to that of the non-scoped standard shot. This mode should now function similar to that of the SBD's zoom - something you can use on larger maps if you need better sight of a target rather than an actual alternative fire-mode. It should get a point reduction with these changes however, down from 10 points to 5.

EE-3 ALT Fire-mode
In the same way that the ARC class does not need a sniper system, the Mandalorian class certainly does not either. This class has the potential to access spots that are unreachable even for Jedi/Sith. For it to then also have access to one of the most potent sniper rifles in the game is an incredibly blatant case of poor balancing. As a result, all of these changes will propose the removal of the sniper mode or replacement of the sniper mode with another mode, similar to how the ARC's scoped mode changes were proposed above.

Option One, Remove the ALT Fire-mode from open. The EE-3 is an incredibly potent rifle already without the sniper mode being purchasable to drastically shift the power of the weapon to a place it does not belong. Instead of the EE-3 providing access to the ALT Fire-mode when purchased at level 3, ranking the weapon up to level 3 now triples the amount of shots which can be fired with pin point accuracy before the overheat mechanic begins and causes the weapon to spread erratically. These changes should be sufficient to keep the weapon from being as dominant as it was in sniper mode while also allowing it to be more effective without a sniper mode, as it is a 28 damage weapon which with these changes, would be able to fire roughly 10 - 14 shots accurately before the overheat mechanic becomes a concern.

Option Two, Replace the ALT Fire-mode with a charged shot firemode similar to a pistol however rather than firing a high power shot it should instead fire a four shot burst which has the bounce property. Similar to the clone pistols, allowing for a Mandalorian to bounce a few shots around a corner, cover or into the back of a target. Should have a short grace period between bursts to prevent bounce spam similar to the pistols, given that the EE-3 deals more damage.

Option Three, Replace the ALT Fire-mode with a 'Supercooled' firemode. When activated, the firemode removes the overheat mechanic inherent for the weapon for a duration of six seconds. During this time, the weapon fires roughly 15% slower but can be fired without pause and no spread increase, on the move or walking, similar to the Westar-M5 at rank 2. After the six seconds have passed or the user changes firemode again, the firemode is put on a 'cooldown' during which it cannot be selected again for a duration of fifteen seconds.

Projectile Rifle
Only two options here and for the Disruptor as well. The projectile rifle is an extremely powerful weapon and in good hands, is pretty much the most lethal weapon in the game. The weapon is far too cheap, far too deadly, carries far too much ammunition and a whole heap of problems that result in it being one of the most balance breaking weapons in the game. In good hands, there are few reasons not to run this weapon. I hope to change that.

Option One, Remove the weapon from Open. No replacements issued. This weapon is incredibly powerful in good hands and can be used at long, medium or short range so long as you've practiced with it. It is also far too cheap and generally disruptive to the game. I do not prefer this option, but it is a valid option and I recognize it as such.

Option Two, Reduce the damage of the weapon on body/leg/arm shots to a flat 65 damage. Reduce the damage on headshots to a flat 100 damage. Set the multiplier for bodyshots and headshots to 1.0x. Increase the point cost of the weapon from 20 points to 25. There's really no need to fuck things up with arbitrary math on this weapon, it should be dealing a consistent chunk of damage but not enough to one-shot classes or take over 60% of a class' health in a single hit. Headshots with this change are still rewarded more than bodyshots and will still deal a noticeable chunk of damage but not enough to where the weapon will overperform and outclass other weapons in almost every situation, it will be a solid support option but no longer the be-all end-all of sniper gameplay or even gunner gameplay in general. A weapon you take because the travel speed is nearly double that of any other gunner weapon, not because it can one-shot kill or seriously injure anyone you point it at.

Disruptor
This one is probably the most blatant of problematic sniper weapons in any game I've ever played. This weapon is hitscan in a game of only projectile weapons, which not only makes it amazing unscoped if you can aim but also amazing as a sniper rifle since you can reliably engage targets across a map and hit them infinitely faster than they can hope to return fire against you. This weapon is the most busted thing in Moviebattles II that is not a wholly seperate class such as SBD/Wook/Deka. It cannot be allowed to remain like this. In good hands, it's an incredibly powerful weapon that even removes the need for a sidearm as good aim means you can reliably chunk someone with the hitscan unscoped shots.

Option One, Remove the weapon entirely from Open. This weapon is the most powerful sniper in the game for holding a corridor or an angle, it suffers a bit as a reactionary sniper due to the charge up requirement but with good movement/jumping around cover as you charge your shot and then fire it once you get a clear target sight, likely avoiding return fire with the jump, there are plenty of ways to make it work. This weapon is an absolute power house and for the price is ludicrously powerful. Removal is the option I prefer for this weapon. I don't see any other way to reconcile it with the rest of the game outside of completely changing the weapon's functionality to give it a new role.

Option Two, Replace the weapon entirely. It can retain the model, but rather than functioning as a sniper rifle or even a long ranged beam weapon, it should now function more akin to a Quake LG. Instead of a scope and a charge up mechanic, the weapon should now fire instantly and act like a close range beam weapon. What I mean by this is that it should continually fire a beam so long as there is ammo in the magazine which travels a short distance and deals slow but consistent damage. It should have no accuracy penalty whether running or walking, jumping or crouching. This form of Disruptor would far more reward consistent accuracy over flick shots and give it a niche role within the game as a close range weapon that can consistently land hits on a target even with erratic movement so long as you can reliably track them with your aim. It also solves the rather egregious issue of the Disruptor being used to completely shut down any possibility of infantry movement in corridors and open areas. I don't have any numbers to suggest for this weapon as I'm not even sure how coding such a weapon in the iDtech 3 engine would work as I am not familiar with the code. As such, I instead provide a video example of how the lightning gun works in Quake for the developers to imitate.

 

[JamJarBinks]

Every time I rq this game it's because a sniper killed me.

Just got sniped with 100 fp and 98bp after a Sith swung at me - I never let go of block, didn't move my mouse, just blocked while standing still. The stagger from blocking let the sniper snipe me?

Ridiculous. /rq

 

[Rev]

Every time I rq this game it's because a sniper killed me.

Just got sniped with 100 fp and 98bp after a Sith swung at me - I never let go of block, didn't move my mouse, just blocked while standing still. The stagger from blocking let the sniper snipe me?

Ridiculous. /rq

inb4 gitgud

 

[Tasmann]

Okay, this is without a doubt the absolute most ill-informed post I have ever seen, and it shows exactly how you have never even once picked up a projectile rifle and bothered to learn its mechanics whatsoever, Appo, or for that matter, any other sniper rifle most likely.

The only reason that a really good sniper could ever make THAT much of a difference in ANY game is because you have a bunch of inexperienced people constantly running around in the open or peeking corners at strategically ignorant times. There's no real competition in the game because all that's really left is trolls, occasional veterans popping in for a casual visit, developers, and Star Wars roleplayers that got all excited because Disney is banging out another trilogy. When people don't even bother learning the system or how to counter it before they straight up just start calling for the removal of it, that does nothing but a disservice to the gaming community.

You want to counter a sniper without sniping? I can easily teach you several ways to do just that. If you want to learn how to counter a sniper, you need to learn how to do it yourself, see what the weak spots of the class and setup are, and then remember those. In all my scrims, including just public ones, I have never seen a single sniper literally sway the tide of the battle, nor have I even done that myself. Sure, I've managed to win some 4v1's or 5v1's single-handedly as a sniper, but that's only because I would pick targets off while they were separated. A sniper cannot fight those kinds of odds all at once, not even the best of snipers.

It is absolutely asinine how people refuse to learn how to counter something, or even try to learn from the get go, and instead just resort to complaining about it on the forums in a cry for help to the developers to change the game in their own favor. I'm honestly quite sick and tired of you lily-livered crybabies whining and complaining about snipers being OP, or snipers taking no skill. Get over yourself, realize that you just don't have the skills yet to counter it, and get to work learning how to counter it. That's how I did it, and I still do it to this day. For example, I really fucking hated the saber system ever since they changed from 1.3 to 1.4, however I still adapted and learned how to utilize the current build rather than coming on here and bitch'n about it until they changed it. I haven't been able to put that same effort into 1.5 saber build, but I'm still following that same basic philosophy, and it's working out just fine.

It took me a couple of years to get to the point where I'm at now with my sniper skills, and I can tell you for a fact that it doesn't get any easier. There are many calculations that you have to make if you actually want to be an effective sniper. They already limited proj. rifle ammo to 18, EE-3 eats up ammo like crazy, and ARC sniper hardly does any damage in the long run. There is already a delay to when you can shoot the proj rifle after scoping, and a long-ass reload time. If you seriously cannot push up a rather short hallway in the time that it takes the sniper to reload after one shot, then you honestly need to get good.

Stop trying to get this game to be all about spray 'n pray and duels. All you're doing is turning this into EA Battlefront by trying to get rid of as many different playstyles / class setups as possible. Newbies need to adapt to the mod, the mod doesn't need to keep adapting to the newbies. Seriously, this mod changes way too often, I'd rather be stuck with a shitty build than to have to keep relearning new shitty builds over and over again.

I have a scrim to get to, so I'm going to cut off my post early, but the main message is that you need to learn how to adapt to the game, snipers are not as overpowered as you think. Seriously, if you want to learn how to counter snipers, just message me, I am more than willing to teach anyone how to do that shit.

 

[CC-1119 'Appo']

Okay, this is without a doubt the absolute most ill-informed post I have ever seen, and it shows exactly how you have never even once picked up a projectile rifle and bothered to learn its mechanics whatsoever, Appo, or for that matter, any other sniper rifle most likely.

The only reason that a really good sniper could ever make THAT much of a difference in ANY game is because you have a bunch of inexperienced people constantly running around in the open or peeking corners at strategically ignorant times. There's no real competition in the game because all that's really left is trolls, occasional veterans popping in for a casual visit, developers, and Star Wars roleplayers that got all excited because Disney is banging out another trilogy. When people don't even bother learning the system or how to counter it before they straight up just start calling for the removal of it, that does nothing but a disservice to the gaming community.

I spent a good two years playing sniper before getting bored of how ludicrous the role is, people seem to forget that. I also used to run dual pistols exclusively, but people forgot that also. A lot of NA players have a misconception of how much I die to snipers because they don't ever play EU. I'm not, nor is anyone else, making a complaint because snipers are fragging them constantly. We are complaining because there is no counterplay to a sniper beyond waiting for support from your team or hoping they misplay, by missing or not seeing you etc. There is no consistent method for a non-sniper to counter a sniper without the sniper missing, other than dodge but that's busted as hell also. The only opening here for a sniper to be outplayed by a gunner is largely related to luck rather than there being a genuine counterplay to the sniper unless the sniper is a mediocre player.

I know what I'm doing Tasmann, there's a reason why I can consistently tangle with top EU gunners, without a sniper, and come out on top. The issue is that they have to put in significantly less effort for far higher reward and be much less consistent than I do in order to achieve the same results. Snipers are what is called a 'low risk high reward' playstyle and are extremely counterproductive to skill-based shooter gameplay. The only thing that holds them back is the dramatic shift in gameplay between regular gunnery and sniping, but you can just as easily practice sniping and you will be able to use it at any range, CE7 is living proof of that.

You want to counter a sniper without sniping? I can easily teach you several ways to do just that. If you want to learn how to counter a sniper, you need to learn how to do it yourself, see what the weak spots of the class and setup are, and then remember those. In all my scrims, including just public ones, I have never seen a single sniper literally sway the tide of the battle, nor have I even done that myself. Sure, I've managed to win some 4v1's or 5v1's single-handedly as a sniper, but that's only because I would pick targets off while they were separated. A sniper cannot fight those kinds of odds all at once, not even the best of snipers.

It is absolutely asinine how people refuse to learn how to counter something, or even try to learn from the get go, and instead just resort to complaining about it on the forums in a cry for help to the developers to change the game in their own favor. I'm honestly quite sick and tired of you lily-livered crybabies whining and complaining about snipers being OP, or snipers taking no skill. Get over yourself, realize that you just don't have the skills yet to counter it, and get to work learning how to counter it. That's how I did it, and I still do it to this day. For example, I really fucking hated the saber system ever since they changed from 1.3 to 1.4, however I still adapted and learned how to utilize the current build rather than coming on here and bitch'n about it until they changed it. I haven't been able to put that same effort into 1.5 saber build, but I'm still following that same basic philosophy, and it's working out just fine.

You're either being disingenuous or it shows the level you play at if you have never seen a sniper swing a 5v5 pug, the class can consistently land 60%+ damage hits on targets and reliably drop multi-life classes in a single hit. They are the largest single factor to the victory or defeat of a pug after saberists. You're also disregarding that all snipers can afford or come with a solid sidearm whenever they take a sniper, which combined with Armor 3 that they can almost all afford along with a decent build means they can definitely hold their own up close if they are unable to land close range snipes for some reason.

Scrims are a different environment from pub matches, with everyone on comms and a far more coordinated attack, they are harder to put into practice, not impossible but that's not what the game is balanced around. Even in those environments, the sniper has a far easier time than other gunners in terms of landing hits and puts out far more damage allowing them to put out a lot more pressure. They are countered on this mode by a rush of 2 - 3 coordinated classes at once, but can still pretty often get a frag or two on anyone who pushes them in this manner short of them running dodge to hardcounter snipers.

I don't even know what to make of the second part of this. I don't even know who you are. You've also got a pretty big ego for some rando on NA where the skill level is consistently lower than any other region, farming AOD players is not hard. Keep your autism-fuelled egoposting to yourself, please. Moviebattles II is not exactly a game you should be raising your hackles for, given that it has as many balance issues and awful mechanics as it does.

It took me a couple of years to get to the point where I'm at now with my sniper skills, and I can tell you for a fact that it doesn't get any easier. There are many calculations that you have to make if you actually want to be an effective sniper. They already limited proj. rifle ammo to 18, EE-3 eats up ammo like crazy, and ARC sniper hardly does any damage in the long run. There is already a delay to when you can shoot the proj rifle after scoping, and a long-ass reload time. If you seriously cannot push up a rather short hallway in the time that it takes the sniper to reload after one shot, then you honestly need to get good.

Stop trying to get this game to be all about spray 'n pray and duels. All you're doing is turning this into EA Battlefront by trying to get rid of as many different playstyles / class setups as possible. Newbies need to adapt to the mod, the mod doesn't need to keep adapting to the newbies. Seriously, this mod changes way too often, I'd rather be stuck with a shitty build than to have to keep relearning new shitty builds over and over again.

I have a scrim to get to, so I'm going to cut off my post early, but the main message is that you need to learn how to adapt to the game, snipers are not as overpowered as you think. Seriously, if you want to learn how to counter snipers, just message me, I am more than willing to teach anyone how to do that shit.

It doesn't get any easier because it's rather easy from the start, just practice shooting at a lower FOV with higher velocity. The difficulty is transitioning between the two playstyles, choosing either is as easy as any other shooter you just have to put in some time to practice. I don't run sniper because they are all so absolutely busted, though I do run it in the Russian scrims as it is the only way to score a hit against the level of players you can expect to face there and even without practicing with it, I can hold my own against top EU players like @Threepwood and @Nex consistently.

I've covered pretty much all of this in the OP in the spoiler tag but I guess you didn't read that. The issue with snipers is not that anyone can pick them up and dominate a field, but their power in good hands is far too much, it's that they are overperforming in literally every category, statistically and in practice. I'll just pre-empt this by saying, this is just an expression based on the statistics in-game, it's not really something that can be contested as it is just stating what the numbers themselves prove. Mathematically, snipers overperform and in practice they also overperform.

I'll break it down for you briefly:

All snipers are cheaper than any gunner build which includes a decent weapon and armor/ammo. All snipers have enough ammunition in reserve to reliably kill a good 4 - 6 100hp/100armor players even if they only land bodyshots. All snipers deal significant damage, it varies obviously but the proj currently sits at 150 damage on a bodyshot with others being slightly less or slightly more around that number. All snipers have significantly faster travel time than non-sniper weapons, ranging from like 20% to 45% based on Mace's statistics spreadsheet.

The only price they pay for all this is a lower FOV while scoped, but this can be played around with practice. There are plenty of EU snipers who don't even bother using sidearms and just play the game at like 30 FOV, using the proj as a shotgun or a sniper depending on the range.

I agree with you on spray and pray however - I'd much rather see projectile speeds raised to reward consistent tracking and accuracy over flickshots and corner camping, I very much agreed with Achilles on that one. The issue is that a lot of players in MB2 are used to these incredibly slow projectiles and the playstyle of it so I don't mind the game retaining it as it is a unique gameplay aspect, even if it is extremely counterproductive to the gameplay MB2 tries to provide.

 

[Noob]

How to take the skill out of any game: introduce a 1shot1kill weapon

 

[Crusader]

How to take the skill out of any game: introduce a 1shot1kill weapon

My thoughts exactly.

Remove Jedi and Sith from the game.

 

[Liniyka_xddd]

You've also got a pretty big ego for some rando

I know what I'm doing

I can hold my own against top EU players

I can consistently tangle with top EU gunners, without a sniper, and come out on top

I don't even know who you are

NA where the skill level is consistently lower than any other region

Keep your autism-fuelled egoposting to yourself

oh the irony

you gotta stop abusing this ARC getup bug bro, it seems it's getting to your head

 

[CC-1119 'Appo']

oh the irony

you gotta stop abusing this ARC getup bug bro, it seems it's getting to your head

Unlike people who main snipers, I'm actively proposing solutions to the 'ARC Getup Bug'. I'm still waiting on you to contribute anything beyond acknowledging that they need changes.

Besides - I do better without the getup bug, but it's less fun than running around playing Ghetto Quake. I don't think I've used it once in any of the pugs played via the Russian discord simply because it's not really competitive, just a fun gimmick to flex on awful sith and clowning around.

 

[Liniyka_xddd]

I'm actively proposing solutions to the 'ARC Getup Bug'

Why would you propose solutions to it? It just needs to be fixed, simple as that.

Anyway to stay on topic I'd like to repeat myself a 100th time with my stupid ass sniper idea:
Don't change the proj in any way. That ensures that proj remains a satisfying weapon to use. Instead, move it from Hero and BH to ET and Comm. Make it a choice between a second life and the proj rifle (like clones have to choose between a second life and cr3). This way you can kill snipers much easier since ET/Comm has below average HP/shield/move speed and no sideroll getup.

I think Hero and BH would still stay very relevant as close-range brawler classes thanks to their abilities and weapons, perhaps with some buffs to help them in that role.

Haven't really thought about EE-3 and M5, but I do agree with changing sniper modes to burst fire or something like that. No idea about the ruptor either, but the "descope-on-hit" mechanic should nerf it just enough.

 

[shea conn]

buff snipers

 

[Tasmann]

First of all, Appo, really? You're going to try to call me out for "ego"? You literally just sat there and told me about how you can consistently hold your own with top EU gunners, don't even know who I am, and that NA is inferior to EU lmao. The hypocrisy is incredible. By the way, that sentence about "holding your own against EU top gunners" has absolutely no meaning to me. I've fought against what the EU has to offer on their own turf, and quite frankly I was not impressed. Get your head out of your arse, EU players are not as high level as you think.

Now then, to my response:

*cough BULLSHIT cough*

Okay, since you're clearly incapable of using your "many years of experience" to figure it out, here's exactly the several ways in which you can counter a sniper:

1. Yes, it's true, counter-sniping is a true and valid tactic, because there are plenty of players in the player base who actually enjoy sniping. Stop trying to make sniping a living hell for the ones who enjoy doing it by putting such severe limitations on it.

2. Grenades. So many classes have grenades of some form, and quite literally all of them will work just fine in making a sniper move from his nest if he doesn't want to get blown up.

3. A decent support jedi/sith. If your jedi/sith pushes up the hallway in the sniper's preferred lane, he's going to have a harder time sniping around him to get to your gunners, and with the added pressure, he'll be forced to take more hasty shots, then move back before the jedi/sith is upon him. *gasp* It's almost like this mod is team-work based...


4. Suppressive fire of literally any kind. If you put a constant stream of fire on a sniper's peeking corner behind cover, he's not going to get a good opportunity to pop out and take a shot without taking severe damage. Also, whenever he gets hit while scoped, it throws off his aim significantly as it makes his projectile rifle stagger upward. A sniper isn't going to take a dumb risk like that. You can also personally move up in zig-zag motion while holding him down with suppressive fire, which brings me to my next point:

5. Move in unpredictable zig-zag motions. This is my personal favorite. As a sniper main, I know how other snipers think and aim, and I know generally when they're going to take the shot. Therefore, I simply move up in not-so-obvious zig-zag motions, and I always change up how much I zig vs. how much I zag, and vice versa. I never, EVER push against a sniper in a consistent fashion.

6. Flanking is always a good counter. Don't be afraid to, you know, actually use strategy. Honestly any class could pull off a successful flank, though quicker moving ones are preferable.

7. When in doubt, blow it up with a rocket. Seriously, I've taken down many snipers even with my meme rocket-arc build of 6 rockets and nothing else. You just have to wait until they take a shot, then fire a rocket straight to their cover. They'll either get the fuck out of there, or they'll be blown to smithereens.

8. Another team-play based one, however any of the tank classes work as excellent sponges while your teammates push up. Wookie and SBD both can take numerous shots from a proj. rifle before dying, enough times for their allies to push up and force the sniper out of position. Deka is special because he can actually roll around and pull the sniper's focus away from the hallway. Heck, he can even setup after a successful flank and absolutely light up the sniper from behind, giving him no place to run. Pfsh, and you said that no class could effectively counter a sniper...

There you go, that's 8 ways right there to counter a sniper, and honestly, if I were to actually think about it, I could probably come up with a few more.

Appo, the reason why you are 100% wrong in everything you have just said about snipers being OP is this. You are examining this mod based on a 1v1 class vs. class comparison. That's not what this game is supposed to be about, and quite frankly, the MB2 community, including its developers, has completely screwed this mod by turning it away from its game type. MB2 is based on JKA siege mode, except with limited lives and all kinds of fancy, custom classes and builds giving the player more options for what and how he wants to play. However, those limited lives have made it so that the quickest and easiest way to win any match at this point is to just go on a killing spree. There's absolutely no point to do the objective in any map anymore, and whenever you do, some toxic piece of shit just sits there and calls you an objective whore. In base JKA siege mode, if you didn't do the objective, you didn't win, period. If MB2 kept that concept alive, this wouldn't even be a problem right now. The only reason that people complain so much about snipers is because they occasionally run into the really good ones who, you know, can actually snipe someone who's just stupidly running straight forward in a long hallway.



MB2 is first and foremost reliant on teamwork that is focused on either completing the objective, or preventing the other team from doing the objective. However, hardly anyone plays that way anymore, and just try to focus on class vs. class battles, which if you pit a soldier against a sniper in a long-range battle, sure, 8 times out of 10 that sniper is going to probably win. But this game is NOT FOCUSED ON 1VS1 BATTLES, IT IS A TEAM GAME!!!!!! A sniper has to be good man, he's got limited rounds, of course it's going to seem like he hits way more of his shots and they mean so much more than regular gunners hitting their shots, BECAUSE THAT IS THE NATURE OF A SNIPER IN LITERALLY ANY SINGLE GAME THAT HAS A SNIPER CLASS!

Damn, and you somehow made it on the internal beta team with the kind of thought process you have? Fuck, this mod is in some deep shit going forward if this is the philosophy moving forward.

There's no solutions to be proposed for fixing the "imbalance of snipers vs. other gunner classes" because there is no fucking need for fixes. Y'all already limited the proj rifle from 24 to 18 rounds, which was a good move to make the sniper think. It forced a sniper to not just pop out of a corner and take random shots hoping that they would hit in narrow hallways, but to actually calculate where he's going to put the shot. As a sniper main, I appreciate that because now I don't have to have the displeasure of fighting or getting tk'd by random point and clickers. They're no fun to instantly destroy, and they're infuriating to get tk'd by from behind.

However, aside from that one move, there is literally nothing else that is needed for any sniper. I honestly rarely see anyone take up the arc rifle as a sniper nowadays, most people use it as a mid-range rifle because it's so far superior for that use than it is as a sniper. I don't even know why you bring that up as a problematic sniper tbh, your "statistical analysis" seems heavily flawed. The EE-3 may be powerful, fast, and able to be used with a jetpack'n mando, but it eats ammo up like a motherfucker, and it doesn't leave mando with either a reliable second weapon, or doesn't leave him with much gear/jetpack fuel if he wants to go EE-3 AND dual westars.

And before you get on your euro high horse and talk about us Americans as low tier again, dude, I've played against you before, pretty sure in both NA and EU servers. Dude, you play like shit LOL you honestly are NOT that good at ARC, silly roleplayer. Don't even try to use that as a part of your argument next time, you filthy sophist.

All you're trying to do is further limit snipers as a class because you don't like getting popped in the head. And honestly, that's a selfish af thing to do. I genuinely enjoy sniping, but I play all the other classes too, and I don't go sniper all the time vs. randos because I know that 80% of them are so bad or new that they don't know how to counter snipers effectively yet. However, the few times that I do go sniper against randos, I do not want to be stuck with some shitty-ass class config because some dipshit refused to adapt and wants to be able 1v1 snipers from long range without being a sniper. Again, get over yourself. This game is a team game, start acting like it.

 

[Damn Polak]

move it from Hero and BH to ET and Comm. Make it a choice between a second life and the proj rifle

great idea, this would effectively remove proj from the game, since noone in their right mind would pick a proj over a wingun with a respawn

 

[CC-1119 'Appo']

1. Yes, it's true, counter-sniping is a true and valid tactic, because there are plenty of players in the player base who actually enjoy sniping. Stop trying to make sniping a living hell for the ones who enjoy doing it by putting such severe limitations on it.

A class countering itself is not a valid method of counterplay. If one of the only ways to consistently shut down a sniper is to pull a sniper yourself, there is something fundamentally wrong with the class. It concerns me that this was the first idea that came into your head when you thought of sniper counterplay.

2. Grenades. So many classes have grenades of some form, and quite literally all of them will work just fine in making a sniper move from his nest if he doesn't want to get blown up.

Yes, situationally this is a counter - often times however, it will do little as almost every map has plenty of space to reposition and snipe again or the sniper may simply take you out as you attempt to throw the grenade. That's assuming there's no Sith to push it away. I don't really consider this a genuine counter, it can work but the amount of times where it will are few and far between. It's a blatant lie to claim otherwise against all but the most mediocre of snipers.

3. A decent support jedi/sith. If your jedi/sith pushes up the hallway in the sniper's preferred lane, he's going to have a harder time sniping around him to get to your gunners, and with the added pressure, he'll be forced to take more hasty shots, then move back before the jedi/sith is upon him. *gasp* It's almost like this mod is team-work based...

It's a shame that concept of team-work oriented gameplay you see as so obvious doesn't apply to snipers then isn't it. Requiring two classes to deal with one is an incredibly flawed design for obvious reasons, as why would you not just play sniper? Your entire team plays sniper, not only do you have solid sidearms but the enemy must take a mix of classes and be competent at synergizing both to take you down or play a sniper themselves. How very well thought out.

A saberist has a lot better time trying to get close to a sniper but that doesn't guarantee a kill. Plenty of sniper players will absolutely dominate the field at close or long range, against saberist or gunner. Not only because some people practice with their weapons and are able to consistently land snipes up close too, but because almost all snipers are able to equip extremely solid sidearms alongside the sniper rifle, meaning there isn't really a drawback if you somehow force them into close range. If anything, there's a good chance they'll hold the advantage because they've drained your FP or your armor/hp as you attempted to close the distance.

Snipers can and will consistently shut down any gunner class in a 1 v 1 and even in a 1 v X, there is very little room here for a sniper to be outplayed except through taking incredibly busted mechanics like dodge.

4. Suppressive fire of literally any kind. If you put a constant stream of fire on a sniper's peeking corner behind cover, he's not going to get a good opportunity to pop out and take a shot without taking severe damage. Also, whenever he gets hit while scoped, it throws off his aim significantly as it makes his projectile rifle stagger upward. A sniper isn't going to take a dumb risk like that. You can also personally move up in zig-zag motion while holding him down with suppressive fire, which brings me to my next point:

Suppression fire is a viable tactic, but you will not deal enough damage with pretty much any non-sniper weapon to deter a hit trade. Especially if you're a one life class. This is something that will become more valid once the descoping on hit mechanic is added to live. That'll at least offer one consistent form of counter most gunners can use to reliably overcome a sniper. It's still not ideal, as hit trades and quick peeks from snipers can still shut down gunners with a single shot but it's certainly better than the previous suggestions.

5. Move in unpredictable zig-zag motions. This is my personal favorite. As a sniper main, I know how other snipers think and aim, and I know generally when they're going to take the shot. Therefore, I simply move up in not-so-obvious zig-zag motions, and I always change up how much I zig vs. how much I zag, and vice versa. I never, EVER push against a sniper in a consistent fashion.

Strafing and erratic movement is exactly how I deal with snipers as well, it works but only against average snipers and quickly loses favor when you get into higher level play. It loses its effectiveness when you're fighting people who have spent years playing the sniper role, especially those who play significantly more competitive games like Quake on the side. The ruptor is certainly more punishing on this front than any other, but the proj can be particularly nasty in good hands here. It can work, but it is far too risky to attempt consistently unless you are not playing to win. A single hit on a 1 life class is sufficient to take over half of your overall HP away or even 1shot you depending on armor value. It just isn't worth the risk and is why it is ill advised to do this whether 1v1 or 5v5.

6. Flanking is always a good counter. Don't be afraid to, you know, actually use strategy. Honestly any class could pull off a successful flank, though quicker moving ones are preferable.

Flanking is certainly possible against snipers assuming they are extremely bad and unable to adapt to a change in position, unfortunately those sort of snipers are extremely rare on EU servers. It's not something that you'll be able to pull off consistently nor does it really do anything to shut down the sniper or prevent instant death/high damage from one hit, it just allows you to get the drop on them if they aren't paying attention. Still doesn't guarantee a win unless you are also running a sniper however, as even a single flickshot can very quickly change the state of the engagement.

7. When in doubt, blow it up with a rocket. Seriously, I've taken down many snipers even with my meme rocket-arc build of 6 rockets and nothing else. You just have to wait until they take a shot, then fire a rocket straight to their cover. They'll either get the fuck out of there, or they'll be blown to smithereens.

I don't agree with this one. Yes, you can rocket someone assuming they are somehow close enough to not be able to avoid your rocket while also simultaneously not being good enough to snipe you and kill you instantly, it's about as situational as relying on your enemy to simply TK the sniper. Especially when you consider a single sith will rapidly turn your attempt to kill a sniper into the death of half of your team.

It can work, but I would expect that this is more something that punishes snipers who setup in spots that allow them to snipe through very narrow angles, as with room to move there's really not much a PLX rocket is going to do to them. Might scare them off as it gets closer but good chance of getting 1shot as soon as you've fired or even just as you fire.

8. Another team-play based one, however any of the tank classes work as excellent sponges while your teammates push up. Wookie and SBD both can take numerous shots from a proj. rifle before dying, enough times for their allies to push up and force the sniper out of position. Deka is special because he can actually roll around and pull the sniper's focus away from the hallway. Heck, he can even setup after a successful flank and absolutely light up the sniper from behind, giving him no place to run. Pfsh, and you said that no class could effectively counter a sniper...

There you go, that's 8 ways right there to counter a sniper, and honestly, if I were to actually think about it, I could probably come up with a few more.

I'd highly recommend that you do come up with more ways, of these there's only one I would really consider a counter and that requires the additions currently being tested to go live as they are, which is a tall order already. The suggestions you have listed here I can only see working against really mediocre snipers, the issue is not that any Tom, Dick and Harry can pick up a sniper and farm kills, it's that practice with a sniper rifle means you surpass any other gunner playstyle. Why play a clone when you can practice with the proj and one-tap people? The few circumstances where you would play a clone over a sniper are so few and far between and can also be accomplished with the sniper with sufficient skill and practice. There is no drawback to sniper. If PUG 5v5 rules did not stipulate only one of each class, it would consistently be a 5v5 sniping match. Perhaps 4v4 if I'm being honest, with 1 jedi/sith on either side to prevent push/pull spam.

The only variety I could see happening here would be perhaps wookie spam or dodge spam in order to try and offset the snipers with tankyness/borderline godmode, but both of those I wouldn't put stock in actually winning games consistently, seems more like a gimmick playstyle to me.

Appo, the reason why you are 100% wrong in everything you have just said about snipers being OP is this. You are examining this mod based on a 1v1 class vs. class comparison. That's not what this game is supposed to be about, and quite frankly, the MB2 community, including its developers, has completely screwed this mod by turning it away from its game type. MB2 is based on JKA siege mode, except with limited lives and all kinds of fancy, custom classes and builds giving the player more options for what and how he wants to play. However, those limited lives have made it so that the quickest and easiest way to win any match at this point is to just go on a killing spree. There's absolutely no point to do the objective in any map anymore, and whenever you do, some toxic piece of shit just sits there and calls you an objective whore. In base JKA siege mode, if you didn't do the objective, you didn't win, period. If MB2 kept that concept alive, this wouldn't even be a problem right now. The only reason that people complain so much about snipers is because they occasionally run into the really good ones who, you know, can actually snipe someone who's just stupidly running straight forward in a long hallway.

Oh don't get me wrong. I would rather see MB2 push more towards the objective oriented playstyle but for one reason or another, this is the meta and the game we have. There's plenty of changes I'd like to see made to MB2 to make it a skill-focused game, right now the only consistent skill tends to be sniping and sabering, as gunplay itself is extremely mediocre with large elements of guess work and prediction over actual mechanical skill. Very little tracking fits into the game's meta because of how awkward the gunplay is designed and due to the nature of the engine, which has some serious hitreg quirks.

The issue with snipers is their performance in good hands, not their performance in mediocre hands. I'm surprised that all of your counters seem to be oriented towards the sniper that is really rather unremarkable over the sniper who knows what they are doing. In the same way the developers are looking at nerfing ARC because of the sheer range of possibilities the class offers with little drawbacks, snipers are also being looked at because of the sheer range of possiblities most snipers offer with little to no drawbacks.

MB2 is first and foremost reliant on teamwork that is focused on either completing the objective, or preventing the other team from doing the objective. However, hardly anyone plays that way anymore, and just try to focus on class vs. class battles, which if you pit a soldier against a sniper in a long-range battle, sure, 8 times out of 10 that sniper is going to probably win. But this game is NOT FOCUSED ON 1VS1 BATTLES, IT IS A TEAM GAME!!!!!! A sniper has to be good man, he's got limited rounds, of course it's going to seem like he hits way more of his shots and they mean so much more than regular gunners hitting their shots, BECAUSE THAT IS THE NATURE OF A SNIPER IN LITERALLY ANY SINGLE GAME THAT HAS A SNIPER CLASS!

Damn, and you somehow made it on the internal beta team with the kind of thought process you have? Fuck, this mod is in some deep shit going forward if this is the philosophy moving forward.

There's no solutions to be proposed for fixing the "imbalance of snipers vs. other gunner classes" because there is no fucking need for fixes. Y'all already limited the proj rifle from 24 to 18 rounds, which was a good move to make the sniper think. It forced a sniper to not just pop out of a corner and take random shots hoping that they would hit in narrow hallways, but to actually calculate where he's going to put the shot. As a sniper main, I appreciate that because now I don't have to have the displeasure of fighting or getting tk'd by random point and clickers. They're no fun to instantly destroy, and they're infuriating to get tk'd by from behind.

However, aside from that one move, there is literally nothing else that is needed for any sniper. I honestly rarely see anyone take up the arc rifle as a sniper nowadays, most people use it as a mid-range rifle because it's so far superior for that use than it is as a sniper. I don't even know why you bring that up as a problematic sniper tbh, your "statistical analysis" seems heavily flawed. The EE-3 may be powerful, fast, and able to be used with a jetpack'n mando, but it eats ammo up like a motherfucker, and it doesn't leave mando with either a reliable second weapon, or doesn't leave him with much gear/jetpack fuel if he wants to go EE-3 AND dual westars.

And before you get on your euro high horse and talk about us Americans as low tier again, dude, I've played against you before, pretty sure in both NA and EU servers. Dude, you play like shit LOL you honestly are NOT that good at ARC, silly roleplayer. Don't even try to use that as a part of your argument next time, you filthy sophist.

All you're trying to do is further limit snipers as a class because you don't like getting popped in the head. And honestly, that's a selfish af thing to do. I genuinely enjoy sniping, but I play all the other classes too, and I don't go sniper all the time vs. randos because I know that 80% of them are so bad or new that they don't know how to counter snipers effectively yet. However, the few times that I do go sniper against randos, I do not want to be stuck with some shitty-ass class config because some dipshit refused to adapt and wants to be able 1v1 snipers from long range without being a sniper. Again, get over yourself. This game is a team game, start acting like it.

We hold very different views on snipers and their role both in gaming as a whole and MB2 itself. I've always been very open, both on the forums and to the developers, that I am biased against snipers due to my background in competitive FPS since the late 90s. I will always despise weapons which were first and foremost designed to give weaker players a leg up against better players. That is exactly what these weapons currently do in Moviebattles II - this is not even arguable, just basing this statement off of the weapon's stats, snipers provide so many advantages with so few drawbacks that cannot also be compensated for by a good player. Especially on classes like BH/Hero which can take damn fine sidearms along with their sniper.

This argument about teamwork falls flat pretty quickly when you consider that your own suggestion is that in order to defeat a sniper, you'll require multiple classes. But to dominate as a sniper, you'll be alright with just the one. Snipers have very few drawbacks and the counters you propose are not only incredibly situational but require the sniper to be a worse player than the pair or single opponent attacking them. It's a flawed philosophy from the outset. I agree - moviebattles is a teambased shooter. So why are almost all snipers designed specifically to shut down an opponent before this concept can even be applied? There's no room for teamwork when a single misplay often results in instantaneous death, while a single misplay as a sniper often just means they can reposition and settle in for another shot, likely not even giving much ground as attackers/defenders spawn pretty far apart on most maps.

The EE-3 is a solid primary even if you choose to take the scoped mode. You are able to switch it back to standard fire and it is more than capable of holding its own at closer ranges, especially if - as a skilled sniper - you can reliably land headshots. As far as me calling NA low tier - you may be an exception to the rule, but an exception does not become the rule. Anecdotally speaking, most NA players are consistently worse than EU players in Moviebattles II and I'm sure if Mace was to dig into his statistics, we could make a case for that to be affirmed to be statistically proven, but this is getting petty. My argument was to say that there's a good chance that you're farming AOD, not competent players, especially given the quality of the advice for counterplay you just offered above.

Feel free to play some MBII on EU as I can say with almost certainty that short of you running a very bland alias, I have never seen you on EU. I think in the six or so years I've been running with this alias I've seen maybe 3 MAF players on EU. Though as far as fighting in MBII, I don't particularly fancy playing with 100 ping, the projectile travel speeds are already atrocious and I avoid making them worse at all costs. Nor would I really expect you to play with 100 ping, for the stated reasons. 'roleplayer' indeed, if you want to start arguing stripes - I'd recommend a more competitive and balanced game than Moviebattles 2. Though if you're happy to put your money where your mouth is, we can tangle ingame some time. Take that sort of thing to PMs though, not this thread.

You're welcome to play snipers once they have been properly balanced, I might plan around the removal of snipers but the developers take everything in moderation, their solutions are both more and less radical in different areas so you needn't worry, there's a good chance you'll be able to continue playing sniper and wiping out people on par or better than you because you chose the objectively better weapon, not because you outplayed them.

If you have any input on this and other balance issues I'd highly recommend joining the Internal Beta Team, because it's not so much an exclusive club as it is as a way for players to give direct feedback before content is added into the game in a state where changing it would be very difficult or timeconsuming.

 

[OreoCrunch]

Appo, this is very selfish of you to straight up ask for the removal of sniper because you cant 1v1 one. I remember dozens of times James Earl Jones just wrecked snipers 1v1 with a default clone build.
The reason you cry and complain about sniper classes is because you roleplay as an arc every time you play, run straight down hallways with dual pistols, and have zero awareness of sniper locations. The few times I've played with you, I just think "man this guy is a noob, hes playing like snipers dont even exist". No wonder you cry so much. Get good at the game and learn different playstyles or you know, actually strategize. Strange, it's like the game is an objective based team game. If you want this game to be all about 1v1 perfectly even match-ups, maybe consider making an FFA mode or a gunner duel mode set between completely new classes.

 

[CC-1119 'Appo']

Appo, this is very selfish of you to straight up ask for the removal of sniper because you cant 1v1 one. I remember dozens of times James Earl Jones just wrecked snipers 1v1 with a default clone build. The reason you cry and complain about sniper classes is because you roleplay as an arc every time you play, run straight down hallways with dual pistols, and have zero awareness of sniper locations. The few times I've played with you, I just think "man this guy is a noob, hes playing like snipers dont even exist". No wonder you cry so much. Get good at the game and learn different playstyles or you know, actually strategize. Strange, it's like the game is an objective based team game. If you want this game to be all about 1v1 perfectly even match-ups, maybe consider making an FFA mode or a gunner duel mode set between completely new classes.

Very likely a different Appo - there's at least seven I know of that have played MB2 in the past and two I've seen in the last month as I haven't really used the dual pistols in over 3 years outside of beta tests.

As far as the snipers go, I'd recommend reading through the OP as I've fully explained my view along with the statistics to back up what I'm saying. I can only repeat what I've demonstrated in the OP when I say that snipers are overperforming, definitively. There's a reason why the question is now not will they be changed but how they will be changed. You certainly aren't helping yourself by skipping that post.

If you disagree with that - feel free to make a counter argument using the spreadsheet linked in the OP and here: Movie Battles II Force Point Drains Spreadsheet courtesy of Mace. It's mostly in date, a few changes to some travel speeds in updates after 1.5 but otherwise it is current. Arguing in circles or trying to claim inexperience on my part isn't likely to get you anywhere while I can demonstrate competence both in terms of design philosophy and gameplay.

 

[OreoCrunch]

My bad, I probably did confuse you with a different Appo. Sorry for that! Regardless, based on what I'm reading here is that you are giving too much credit to the projectile rifle. Sure it does a lot of damage, but it has significantly less ammo, and takes a long time to reload. You are basing most of your arguments off of the skill of the sniper, not the weapon itself.

 

[Raziel]

Honestly why should such a high skill ceiling weapon exist in the game? The population surges after every movie, then drops again because newbies get stomped on by people that have ridiculous numbers of hours in this game, myself included. I think tweaking snipers as well as changing dueling to be more newbie friendly would be the way to go to improve the New Player Experience. Nobody watches a star wars movie and wants to be a sniper, they want to pickup a lightsaber and feel cool.

 

[CC-1119 'Appo']

My bad, I probably did confuse you with a different Appo. Sorry for that! Regardless, based on what I'm reading here is that you are giving too much credit to the projectile rifle. Sure it does a lot of damage, but it has significantly less ammo, and takes a long time to reload. You are basing most of your arguments off of the skill of the sniper, not the weapon itself.

It's half and half, honestly. The weapon does have a lot of areas where it is too powerful with almost no drawbacks but isn't as noob friendly as something like the Clone Rifle rank 3. It's something that needs careful tweaking and that's exactly what the developers are aiming to do.

I am biased against snipers definitely so the developers are taking that onboard when discussing this issue amongst testers, especially when it involves my feedback so worry not - I can obviously only speak for myself and my views, but the final changes are likely to be very different from what I or any non-dev envision. Just about bringing them into line with other weapons statlines, they have way too many advantages to only cost 15pts right now and since devs don't want to boost point cost too much, chances are that it'll see some stat changes instead.

The weapon is great on its own and between two newbies fighting, the guy with the proj does have a leg up but it's certainly player talent that truly pushes the projectile rifle into broken-tier. The same is true of other snipers to differing extents. The issue definitely isn't as dramatic as removing snipers or making them useless, but they do overperform enough that there is no real reason not to play a sniper beyond personal preference if you are a competitively minded player.

 

[Tasmann]

First of all, stop accusing me of playing on AOD, I never go on that trash heap.

Alright you filthy sophist, since you were so keen to attempt to disprove every single one of my points, allow me to expose your actual argument that lies hidden beneath your overly inflated paragraphs.

A class countering itself is not a valid method of counterplay. If one of the only ways to consistently shut down a sniper is to pull a sniper yourself, there is something fundamentally wrong with the class. It concerns me that this was the first idea that came into your head when you thought of sniper counterplay.

"I don't agree nor like this so your counter is not truly a counter even though it in fact counters that class. It's not a counter because I said so."

Don't be dumb. There's a reason that the term "counter-sniping" exists. If it works, it's a counter. Period. Don't be stupid just because you don't like something.

Yes, situationally this is a counter - often times however, it will do little as almost every map has plenty of space to reposition and snipe again or the sniper may simply take you out as you attempt to throw the grenade. That's assuming there's no Sith to push it away. I don't really consider this a genuine counter, it can work but the amount of times where it will are few and far between. It's a blatant lie to claim otherwise against all but the most mediocre of snipers.

"This is not a good counter because it doesn't work against all snipers, only bad ones."

Well then, that's not a problem with the class then, but rather the enemy being more skilled than you, isn't it?

It's a shame that concept of team-work oriented gameplay you see as so obvious doesn't apply to snipers then isn't it. Requiring two classes to deal with one is an incredibly flawed design for obvious reasons, as why would you not just play sniper? Your entire team plays sniper, not only do you have solid sidearms but the enemy must take a mix of classes and be competent at synergizing both to take you down or play a sniper themselves. How very well thought out.

"It's not a counter because it doesn't fit into my class vs class equality system, teamwork not allowed."

Oh, by the way, for that kind of consistent "OPness", that assumes that literally every single member on one team is a well-above-average sniper. An average sniper does not have a 2-to-1 consistent ratio vs. any other class. The fact you actually uttered that statement made me laugh rather vigorously.

A saberist has a lot better time trying to get close to a sniper but that doesn't guarantee a kill. Plenty of sniper players will absolutely dominate the field at close or long range, against saberist or gunner. Not only because some people practice with their weapons and are able to consistently land snipes up close too, but because almost all snipers are able to equip extremely solid sidearms alongside the sniper rifle, meaning there isn't really a drawback if you somehow force them into close range. If anything, there's a good chance they'll hold the advantage because they've drained your FP or your armor/hp as you attempted to close the distance.

"It's not a counter because I'm assuming that the jedi/sith rushing is a dumb dumb stupid head who's playing this game for the first time. #disneywars"

First of all, read the numbers and circumstances, a projectile rifle shot can take as little as 20 fp away from a jedi/sith that's rushing, with a maximum of about 50 fp, depending on how far away he is when he takes the shot (anywhere that's medium range and farther). If he waits to take the shot when he's really close, then yes, he might be able to get a massive fp drain of like 80, however he'd be stupid to do so as he's now within striking range of the saber. Now, if the jedi/sith is being stupid and not blocking, sure, he'll be closer to that 50 fp drain at mid range. However, physically blocking will reduce the fp toll of a projectile rifle shot generally, and you're likely only to get one in most hallways, because the typical hallways are not THAT long, aside from the side route on DOTF. Your entire counter argument is based on the assumption that the sniper is above average or pro and the jedi/sith is a literal first day newbie.

Snipers can and will consistently shut down any gunner class in a 1 v 1 and even in a 1 v X, there is very little room here for a sniper to be outplayed except through taking incredibly busted mechanics like dodge.

"I know you said that MB2 is a team game, but I don't care, I want my 1vs1 equality."

Shut up you socialist. Not every class has to be statistically equal, that's just lunacy. If we were to argue that, then we need to balance out soldiers vs. SBD because there's no possible way a solitary soldier can take on an SBD (not counting on skill level), right?????? That's just dumb dumb stupid head logic, and I for one have no idea why you're bringing that kind of a thinking process to beta testing. Some classes are MEANT to fight off multiple classes and people at once, hell that's exactly what jedi and sith are supposed to be, able to distract/hold off three other players at once. At that point, it doesn't really depend on actual class config as much as it depends on player skill. You are completely missing the mark on your analysis.

Suppression fire is a viable tactic, but you will not deal enough damage with pretty much any non-sniper weapon to deter a hit trade. Especially if you're a one life class. This is something that will become more valid once the descoping on hit mechanic is added to live. That'll at least offer one consistent form of counter most gunners can use to reliably overcome a sniper. It's still not ideal, as hit trades and quick peeks from snipers can still shut down gunners with a single shot but it's certainly better than the previous suggestions.

"But you can't hurt him good with suppressive fire uggggghhh!!!"

Dude, learn what the fucking phrase "suppressive fire" means. It's not supposed to hurt him, it's supposed to SUPPRESS him, keep him from moving out to shoot, restrict him to staying in his place, etc.

Definition of SUPPRESS

to put down by authority or force : subdue; to keep from public knowledge: such as; to keep secret… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Merriam Webster Dictionary (linked above), as one of the multiple definitions of the word "suppress", has this entry as #5: : to restrain from a usual course or action.

In this case, you'd be restraining the sniper from taking his usual course of action of popping out of cover to snipe someone.

Strafing and erratic movement is exactly how I deal with snipers as well, it works but only against average snipers and quickly loses favor when you get into higher level play. It loses its effectiveness when you're fighting people who have spent years playing the sniper role, especially those who play significantly more competitive games like Quake on the side. The ruptor is certainly more punishing on this front than any other, but the proj can be particularly nasty in good hands here. It can work, but it is far too risky to attempt consistently unless you are not playing to win. A single hit on a 1 life class is sufficient to take over half of your overall HP away or even 1shot you depending on armor value. It just isn't worth the risk and is why it is ill advised to do this whether 1v1 or 5v5.

"This is not a good counter because it doesn't work against all snipers, only bad ones."

Literally a copy and paste from your "counter argument" to my second counter. Get new material. Also, you're actually factually wrong, I've done that same tactic against pro snipers, and they still miss me more times than not when I employ that strategy. You just have to learn how your opponent is going to think, aim, and shoot. Honestly, what helps me a lot with that is understanding sniping myself. As a fellow sniper, I know what my opponent is going to go for, and I can make more precise zig-zag calculations automatically that way. So, again, sorry, but your "ugh not a counter cuz doesn't work against good snipers" argument doesn't apply here either. Stay tuned though, I think you try it again at least one more time.

Flanking is certainly possible against snipers assuming they are extremely bad and unable to adapt to a change in position, unfortunately those sort of snipers are extremely rare on EU servers. It's not something that you'll be able to pull off consistently nor does it really do anything to shut down the sniper or prevent instant death/high damage from one hit, it just allows you to get the drop on them if they aren't paying attention. Still doesn't guarantee a win unless you are also running a sniper however, as even a single flickshot can very quickly change the state of the engagement.

"This is not a good counter because it doesn't work against all snipers, only bad ones."

Well, that didn't take long to come back to that "argument", now did it? You'd actually be very surprised as to just how stupid some good snipers are. Being able to hit shots consistently is only a part of sniping, and unfortunately most snipers nowadays only know how to do that one part. Most snipers I've seen never even once check behind them for flanks, or even think of positioning in such a way that they won't be caught off guard. I've seen many snipers, ones who even hit more of their shots than I do, get royally fucked from behind because they never pay attention.

I don't agree with this one. Yes, you can rocket someone assuming they are somehow close enough to not be able to avoid your rocket while also simultaneously not being good enough to snipe you and kill you instantly, it's about as situational as relying on your enemy to simply TK the sniper. Especially when you consider a single sith will rapidly turn your attempt to kill a sniper into the death of half of your team.

It can work, but I would expect that this is more something that punishes snipers who setup in spots that allow them to snipe through very narrow angles, as with room to move there's really not much a PLX rocket is going to do to them. Might scare them off as it gets closer but good chance of getting 1shot as soon as you've fired or even just as you fire.

"This is not a good counter because it assumes that the conditions are absolutely perfect."

WROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG!!!!!

Most of the times I rocket are at times where it's not the optimal conditions, however I absolutely get the feeling that it's the right time to rocket. Most times, they're at a distance as well. I still get snipers all the time like this. They waste a shot, then I pop out of hiding, and either make them run like the wind, or I blow them up. And duh, don't be a dumb dumb stupid head and rocket a sith who knows how to use force push. Seriously, it sounds like your counter arguments as well as your suggestions on nerfing snipers are all based on making a gameplay style that would make it possible for a brain dead monkey with his hands tied behind his back to easily kill multiple people before dying. USEEEEEEEEE....BRAAAAAAAAAAIN!!!!!!! Good grief, I hate sophists like you.

I'd highly recommend that you do come up with more ways, of these there's only one I would really consider a counter and that requires the additions currently being tested to go live as they are, which is a tall order already. The suggestions you have listed here I can only see working against really mediocre snipers, the issue is not that any Tom, Dick and Harry can pick up a sniper and farm kills, it's that practice with a sniper rifle means you surpass any other gunner playstyle. Why play a clone when you can practice with the proj and one-tap people? The few circumstances where you would play a clone over a sniper are so few and far between and can also be accomplished with the sniper with sufficient skill and practice. There is no drawback to sniper. If PUG 5v5 rules did not stipulate only one of each class, it would consistently be a 5v5 sniping match. Perhaps 4v4 if I'm being honest, with 1 jedi/sith on either side to prevent push/pull spam. The only variety I could see happening here would be perhaps wookie spam or dodge spam in order to try and offset the snipers with tankyness/borderline godmode, but both of those I wouldn't put stock in actually winning games consistently, seems more like a gimmick playstyle to me.

"NONE OF THESE ARE GOOD COUNTERS BECAUSE THEY DON'T WORK AGAINST GOOD SNIPERS ONLY BAD BAD DUMB DUMB STUPID HEADS REEEEEEEEEE!!!" You just had to get one more invalid argument in, didn't ya?

First of all, clearly you have not seen us MAF dudes pull off a 5-man gloan spam and beat outmanned odds consistently, facing snipers, sith, SBD's, etc. Don't ever underestimate gloans, we'll blast you clankers to bits.

On a more serious note, I will agree that clone is not nearly as useful as it once was, but I blame that on the dev's decision in 1.5 largely. Reducing the duration of a fully charged ion blob's shock effect makes it absolutely pointless to use against SBD's unless you're going to just spam clone rifles, but there again, that violates your precious little 1vs1 class equality and actually employs *GASP* TEAMWORK.

Oh, and by the way, you didn't even try to respond to my actual 8th counter, so fuck you, you quitter.

Oh don't get me wrong. I would rather see MB2 push more towards the objective oriented playstyle but for one reason or another, this is the meta and the game we have. There's plenty of changes I'd like to see made to MB2 to make it a skill-focused game, right now the only consistent skill tends to be sniping and sabering, as gunplay itself is extremely mediocre with large elements of guess work and prediction over actual mechanical skill. Very little tracking fits into the game's meta because of how awkward the gunplay is designed and due to the nature of the engine, which has some serious hitreg quirks.

"It's not skill, it's just lucky guessing." *cough BULLSHIT cough*

"I want to push towards objective oriented games too !!!" *cough BULLSHIT cough* Why the hell are you preaching about class vs class 100% equality then? Might as well just put in the one soldier class and call it quits as far as you're concerned.

The issue with snipers is their performance in good hands, not their performance in mediocre hands. I'm surprised that all of your counters seem to be oriented towards the sniper that is really rather unremarkable over the sniper who knows what they are doing. In the same way the developers are looking at nerfing ARC because of the sheer range of possibilities the class offers with little drawbacks, snipers are also being looked at because of the sheer range of possiblities most snipers offer with little to no drawbacks.

"Not true counters because only work vs. bad snipers!!!"

Man, you are really set on that one same invalid argument, aren't you?

Also, actually, you're factually wrong. These are in fact tactics that I employ against good snipers, snipers even better than myself, and more times than not they work how I plan them. If you're looking for a 100% no-failure counter in every scenario against a sniper, sorry, but there's one, just like there isn't one for any other class in MB2, and that's by design. Do you have any idea how boring a game would be if there was one legit 100% never failed counter to an entire class? That's more dumb dumb stupid head logic.

We hold very different views on snipers and their role both in gaming as a whole and MB2 itself. I've always been very open, both on the forums and to the developers, that I am biased against snipers due to my background in competitive FPS since the late 90s. I will always despise weapons which were first and foremost designed to give weaker players a leg up against better players. That is exactly what these weapons currently do in Moviebattles II - this is not even arguable, just basing this statement off of the weapon's stats, snipers provide so many advantages with so few drawbacks that cannot also be compensated for by a good player. Especially on classes like BH/Hero which can take damn fine sidearms along with their sniper.

Great soapbox speech, you should go into politics.

You absolutely cannot and should not evaluate the effectiveness of a class solely based on damage stats and point costs. That is just asinine. Of course hero and bounty hunter are going to have access to nicer shit all at once, because they don't have multiple fucking lives like soldiers, ET's, commanders, and clone troopers do. Hell, ARC and Mando arguably have even more gear than hero/bounty hunter, AND are tankier as well. Lol your logic is so broken dude. A sniper does that much damage because IT'S A FUCKING SNIPER RIFLE, THAT'S WHAT THEY DO, LINE UP THE PERFECT SHOT, AND TAKE IT, DURRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!

This argument about teamwork falls flat pretty quickly when you consider that your own suggestion is that in order to defeat a sniper, you'll require multiple classes. But to dominate as a sniper, you'll be alright with just the one. Snipers have very few drawbacks and the counters you propose are not only incredibly situational but require the sniper to be a worse player than the pair or single opponent attacking them. It's a flawed philosophy from the outset. I agree - moviebattles is a teambased shooter. So why are almost all snipers designed specifically to shut down an opponent before this concept can even be applied? There's no room for teamwork when a single misplay often results in instantaneous death, while a single misplay as a sniper often just means they can reposition and settle in for another shot, likely not even giving much ground as attackers/defenders spawn pretty far apart on most maps.

"Heyyyy uhhhhh your argument about teamwork is invalid because just one of your counters doesn't actually involve teamwork uhh huhrrrrrr."

First of all, you're mad that there's no one-class-counter vs. sniper (allegedly, you're actually still factually wrong on that), but now you're saying my points are invalid because I literally gave you the one-class counter?????? Again, MB2 is a TEAM GAME, why not USE a TEAM!!! Also, just to make a point, it actually is in fact quite reliably possible to counter a sniper alone as any of the classes tbh, and that's including good snipers as well. I've countered snipers of various skill levels alone with classes other than snipers before, it's actually not as hard as you think it is. Just get good tbh. Like I said, I'm more than willing to teach anyone how to do that kind of stuff, even you Appo. All you gotta do is ask.

The EE-3 is a solid primary even if you choose to take the scoped mode. You are able to switch it back to standard fire and it is more than capable of holding its own at closer ranges, especially if - as a skilled sniper - you can reliably land headshots. As far as me calling NA low tier - you may be an exception to the rule, but an exception does not become the rule. Anecdotally speaking, most NA players are consistently worse than EU players in Moviebattles II and I'm sure if Mace was to dig into his statistics, we could make a case for that to be affirmed to be statistically proven, but this is getting petty. My argument was to say that there's a good chance that you're farming AOD, not competent players, especially given the quality of the advice for counterplay you just offered above.

"You're NA so you're automatically devalued on anything you have to say as well as garbage that just farms newb kills."

First of all, fuck you, I never go on AOD. That place is a boring trash heap.

Second of all, I typically play with/against my own clanmates, most of whom are at the very least above average. So no, I don't "newb farm". If I wanted to newb farm, I'd go on whatever EU server you're playing.

Feel free to play some MBII on EU as I can say with almost certainty that short of you running a very bland alias, I have never seen you on EU. I think in the six or so years I've been running with this alias I've seen maybe 3 MAF players on EU. Though as far as fighting in MBII, I don't particularly fancy playing with 100 ping, the projectile travel speeds are already atrocious and I avoid making them worse at all costs. Nor would I really expect you to play with 100 ping, for the stated reasons. 'roleplayer' indeed, if you want to start arguing stripes - I'd recommend a more competitive and balanced game than Moviebattles 2. Though if you're happy to put your money where your mouth is, we can tangle ingame some time. Take that sort of thing to PMs though, not this thread.

Hang on one second here...lemme get something you said earlier....

I don't even know what to make of the second part of this. I don't even know who you are. You've also got a pretty big ego for some rando on NA where the skill level is consistently lower than any other region, farming AOD players is not hard. Keep your autism-fuelled egoposting to yourself, please. Moviebattles II is not exactly a game you should be raising your hackles for, given that it has as many balance issues and awful mechanics as it does.

Also Appo....

I have never seen you on EU. I think in the six or so years I've been running with this alias I've seen maybe 3 MAF players on EU.

I don't even know who you are.

Boy, I just caught you in a damn lie. You said you don't even know who I am, yet without any prior reference to my clan whatsoever, you correctly identified me as a MAF member. You damn liar.

Also, when the hell did this become a dick measuring contest for you? I'm just here correcting your nonsense that you're trying to twist snipers as somehow grossly OP. But, just for fun, perhaps I will pop into an Euro server again. Sure, 150+ ping is hell for playing in general, but oh what the hell, should be fun.

You're welcome to play snipers once they have been properly balanced, I might plan around the removal of snipers but the developers take everything in moderation, their solutions are both more and less radical in different areas so you needn't worry, there's a good chance you'll be able to continue playing sniper and wiping out people on par or better than you because you chose the objectively better weapon, not because you outplayed them.

Exactly what kind of role do you think you're playing in here? You're just a beta tester, not a developer, you don't speak on their behalf, stop trying to act all "reassuring" or whatever bizarre roleplay you're doing right now lmao.

If you have any input on this and other balance issues I'd highly recommend joining the Internal Beta Team, because it's not so much an exclusive club as it is as a way for players to give direct feedback before content is added into the game in a state where changing it would be very difficult or timeconsuming.

As a matter of fact, maybe I will go ahead and apply to become a beta tester. Someone has to correct this broken logic of "snipers OP pls nerf".

 

[CC-1119 'Appo']

"I don't agree nor like this so your counter is not truly a counter even though it in fact counters that class. It's not a counter because I said so."

Don't be dumb. There's a reason that the term "counter-sniping" exists. If it works, it's a counter. Period. Don't be stupid just because you don't like something.

Any class that is countered only by itself is terribly designed.

"This is not a good counter because it doesn't work against all snipers, only bad ones."

Well then, that's not a problem with the class then, but rather the enemy being more skilled than you, isn't it?

The sniper does not need to be more competent than me, only at the same skill level and these tactics will not work. If the sniper is not mediocre, they will not be caught by these counters. This has nothing to do with their skill level being above the non-sniper's skill level.

"It's not a counter because it doesn't fit into my class vs class equality system, teamwork not allowed."

Oh, by the way, for that kind of consistent "OPness", that assumes that literally every single member on one team is a well-above-average sniper. An average sniper does not have a 2-to-1 consistent ratio vs. any other class. The fact you actually uttered that statement made me laugh rather vigorously.

This is a testament to the playerbase you frequent, not the state of balance.

"It's not a counter because I'm assuming that the jedi/sith rushing is a dumb dumb stupid head who's playing this game for the first time. #disneywars"

You're right, because of how busted FP drains are right now the saberist does have an edge. Unfortunately for your very brief list of counters, that is also changing next patch.

First of all, read the numbers and circumstances, a projectile rifle shot can take as little as 20 fp away from a jedi/sith that's rushing, with a maximum of about 50 fp, depending on how far away he is when he takes the shot (anywhere that's medium range and farther). If he waits to take the shot when he's really close, then yes, he might be able to get a massive fp drain of like 80, however he'd be stupid to do so as he's now within striking range of the saber. Now, if the jedi/sith is being stupid and not blocking, sure, he'll be closer to that 50 fp drain at mid range. However, physically blocking will reduce the fp toll of a projectile rifle shot generally, and you're likely only to get one in most hallways, because the typical hallways are not THAT long, aside from the side route on DOTF. Your entire counter argument is based on the assumption that the sniper is above average or pro and the jedi/sith is a literal first day newbie.

Why would he rely entirely on his sniper? There are plenty of snipers who can and do rely only on the sniper, but mediocre players can still afford to take like 3 guns combined with the proj. He can take a shot at mid-range and switch to his E-11 or his P3. Both of which are more than capable of putting down a saberist even with the fucked FP drains.

"I know you said that MB2 is a team game, but I don't care, I want my 1vs1 equality."

Shut up you socialist. Not every class has to be statistically equal, that's just lunacy. If we were to argue that, then we need to balance out soldiers vs. SBD because there's no possible way a solitary soldier can take on an SBD (not counting on skill level), right?????? That's just dumb dumb stupid head logic, and I for one have no idea why you're bringing that kind of a thinking process to beta testing. Some classes are MEANT to fight off multiple classes and people at once, hell that's exactly what jedi and sith are supposed to be, able to distract/hold off three other players at once. At that point, it doesn't really depend on actual class config as much as it depends on player skill. You are completely missing the mark on your analysis.

LOL. You do your clantag proud.

"But you can't hurt him good with suppressive fire uggggghhh!!!"

Dude, learn what the fucking phrase "suppressive fire" means. It's not supposed to hurt him, it's supposed to SUPPRESS him, keep him from moving out to shoot, restrict him to staying in his place, etc.

Definition of SUPPRESS

to put down by authority or force : subdue; to keep from public knowledge: such as; to keep secret… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Merriam Webster Dictionary (linked above), as one of the multiple definitions of the word "suppress", has this entry as #5: : to restrain from a usual course or action.

In this case, you'd be restraining the sniper from taking his usual course of action of popping out of cover to snipe someone.

Suppressing an area only ensures that the sniper won't necessarily risk a shot they don't think they can land. It won't stop a confident sniper from popping out and attempting to one-tap or seriously injure you. Being shot by suppression fire deals minimal damage compared to the damage of a single sniper shot. It works against snipers who panic, it does not work against competent players.

"This is not a good counter because it doesn't work against all snipers, only bad ones."

Literally a copy and paste from your "counter argument" to my second counter. Get new material. Also, you're actually factually wrong, I've done that same tactic against pro snipers, and they still miss me more times than not when I employ that strategy. You just have to learn how your opponent is going to think, aim, and shoot. Honestly, what helps me a lot with that is understanding sniping myself. As a fellow sniper, I know what my opponent is going to go for, and I can make more precise zig-zag calculations automatically that way. So, again, sorry, but your "ugh not a counter cuz doesn't work against good snipers" argument doesn't apply here either. Stay tuned though, I think you try it again at least one more time.

It is truly amazing how different MB2 is on EU and NA. I suppose if you only play in an echochamber that is MAF, you get a different experience.

"This is not a good counter because it doesn't work against all snipers, only bad ones."

Well, that didn't take long to come back to that "argument", now did it? You'd actually be very surprised as to just how stupid some good snipers are. Being able to hit shots consistently is only a part of sniping, and unfortunately most snipers nowadays only know how to do that one part. Most snipers I've seen never even once check behind them for flanks, or even think of positioning in such a way that they won't be caught off guard. I've seen many snipers, ones who even hit more of their shots than I do, get royally fucked from behind because they never pay attention.

I wish snipers on EU were this clueless. Again, a testament to the environment you play in.

"This is not a good counter because it assumes that the conditions are absolutely perfect."

WROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG!!!!!

Most of the times I rocket are at times where it's not the optimal conditions, however I absolutely get the feeling that it's the right time to rocket. Most times, they're at a distance as well. I still get snipers all the time like this. They waste a shot, then I pop out of hiding, and either make them run like the wind, or I blow them up. And duh, don't be a dumb dumb stupid head and rocket a sith who knows how to use force push. Seriously, it sounds like your counter arguments as well as your suggestions on nerfing snipers are all based on making a gameplay style that would make it possible for a brain dead monkey with his hands tied behind his back to easily kill multiple people before dying. USEEEEEEEEE....BRAAAAAAAAAAIN!!!!!!! Good grief, I hate sophists like you.

It's amazing how you think that you can shout via text in order to suppress something you disagree with rather than bringing any substance to the thread. I don't think I've ever seen someone shitpost this cluelessly before and I've had to suffer through Foggy's posts. Bravo.

There are times where you can risk a rocket, like after they've fired you may have a small window but most times you are simply throwing your life away as the rocket is unlikely to hit and they certainly can risk just headshotting you while you're stationary and backing off. If this truly is a tactic you swear by, it says more about the players you play against than it does your talent.

"It's not skill, it's just lucky guessing." *cough BULLSHIT cough*

"I want to push towards objective oriented games too !!!" *cough BULLSHIT cough* Why the hell are you preaching about class vs class 100% equality then? Might as well just put in the one soldier class and call it quits as far as you're concerned.

Because the developers and the community are set in their ways. The solution now is to focus on fixing what can be fixed to balance the game, not reinvent the wheel. There's a whole heap of changes that could be made but won't for one reason or another, not because I don't want to see them but because others do not believe in their potential.

"Not true counters because only work vs. bad snipers!!!"

Man, you are really set on that one same invalid argument, aren't you?

Also, actually, you're factually wrong. These are in fact tactics that I employ against good snipers, snipers even better than myself, and more times than not they work how I plan them. If you're looking for a 100% no-failure counter in every scenario against a sniper, sorry, but there's one, just like there isn't one for any other class in MB2, and that's by design. Do you have any idea how boring a game would be if there was one legit 100% never failed counter to an entire class? That's more dumb dumb stupid head logic.

That really isn't saying much.

You absolutely cannot and should not evaluate the effectiveness of a class solely based on damage stats and point costs. That is just asinine. Of course hero and bounty hunter are going to have access to nicer shit all at once, because they don't have multiple fucking lives like soldiers, ET's, commanders, and clone troopers do. Hell, ARC and Mando arguably have even more gear than hero/bounty hunter, AND are tankier as well. Lol your logic is so broken dude. A sniper does that much damage because IT'S A FUCKING SNIPER RIFLE, THAT'S WHAT THEY DO, LINE UP THE PERFECT SHOT, AND TAKE IT, DURRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!

ARC & Mando are not tankier nor do they have more gear than a Hero/BH. I have no idea what version of MB2 you are playing where this is the case. As far as I'm aware, it never has been.

"Heyyyy uhhhhh your argument about teamwork is invalid because just one of your counters doesn't actually involve teamwork uhh huhrrrrrr."

First of all, you're mad that there's no one-class-counter vs. sniper (allegedly, you're actually still factually wrong on that), but now you're saying my points are invalid because I literally gave you the one-class counter?????? Again, MB2 is a TEAM GAME, why not USE a TEAM!!! Also, just to make a point, it actually is in fact quite reliably possible to counter a sniper alone as any of the classes tbh, and that's including good snipers as well. I've countered snipers of various skill levels alone with classes other than snipers before, it's actually not as hard as you think it is. Just get good tbh. Like I said, I'm more than willing to teach anyone how to do that kind of stuff, even you Appo. All you gotta do is ask.

If a class is only countered by itself or several other classes working together, it is blatantly flawed in concept and design.

"You're NA so you're automatically devalued on anything you have to say as well as garbage that just farms newb kills."

First of all, fuck you, I never go on AOD. That place is a boring trash heap.

Second of all, I typically play with/against my own clanmates, most of whom are at the very least above average. So no, I don't "newb farm". If I wanted to newb farm, I'd go on whatever EU server you're playing.

Hang on one second here...lemme get something you said earlier....

Also Appo....

Boy, I just caught you in a damn lie. You said you don't even know who I am, yet without any prior reference to my clan whatsoever, you correctly identified me as a MAF member. You damn liar.

I know you're desperate, but control yourself.

Also, when the hell did this become a dick measuring contest for you? I'm just here correcting your nonsense that you're trying to twist snipers as somehow grossly OP. But, just for fun, perhaps I will pop into an Euro server again. Sure, 150+ ping is hell for playing in general, but oh what the hell, should be fun.

Exactly what kind of role do you think you're playing in here? You're just a beta tester, not a developer, you don't speak on their behalf, stop trying to act all "reassuring" or whatever bizarre roleplay you're doing right now lmao.

As a matter of fact, maybe I will go ahead and apply to become a beta tester. Someone has to correct this broken logic of "snipers OP pls nerf".

This is a thread I created, I actively speak to the developers on this issue and raise the issue among the community to try and get more input. As such, I will continue to pass on said information and let people know that despite my opinions here, they are just that. Changes are still made with more input than my own and this thread was merely an interest gauge, to see how people would rework snipers if they had to.

You are welcome to enjoy the sniper in whatever form it ends up being turned into once it is fixed, and it will be fixed, largely because people who defend the weapon do so while also making asses of themselves as you have masterfully done in these few short posts. I'm going to be exceedingly harsh here largely because previously I held my tounge despite your immediate advance onto personal attacks rather than discussing the issue mentioned in the thread.

You are a mediocre, bottom barrel, salt-filled NA shitter who will always be more at home in AOD or some other no-name 10,000 member clan, Moviebattles II is the only game in the world you would even come close to me in terms of mechanical skill. It is a game riddled with bugs, exploits and awful balance decisions that no serious shooter player would consider fair, fun, competitive or even worth their time. You will continue to be mediocre regardless of where you choose to apply yourself due to your nature of being not only overly aggressive but deluding yourself when it comes to gameplay as a result of the echochamber you play on and a complete lack of gameplay experience outside of this one title. I genuinely hope you make it into the beta team simply because echochambers are never healthy, but I get the feeling your fate will end up the same as Achilles. He also believed that being the most vulgar, controversial, over the top prick would get anything done or endear people to him.

This is the last post I will waste any time writing up in response to you, feel free to make a post befitting your nature in response to this with all the vitriol you can muster, you complete and utter American.