The Sniper Dilemma

How would you solve the Sniper dilemma?

  • WESTAR-M5 SCOPED: Option One, Removal

  • WESTAR-M5 SCOPED: Option Two, Burst Fire Replacement

  • WESTAR-M5 SCOPED: Option Three, Zoom Only

  • EE-3 ALT Fire-mode: Option One, Removal

  • EE-3 ALT Fire-mode: Option Two, Bouncing Shots Replacement

  • EE-3 ALT Fire-mode: Option Three, Supercooled Replacement

  • Projectile Rifle: Option One, Removal

  • Projectile Rifle: Option Two, Damage, Damage Multiplier and Point Cost adjustments

  • Disruptor: Option One, Removal

  • Disruptor: Option Two, Beam Weapon Replacement


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Noob

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If that's truly the case then I don't see why not just make all MB2 guns hitscan now. There's nothing good in projectile bullets and hitscan would remove the randomness of fire fights as well as properly reward precise players. It's kinda off topic from the thread but oh well
Go play the FA's with hitscan guns, it removes the whole dynamic of movement and imo leading in shots is the skill aspect of blasters, not only aiming.
 

Stassin

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I don't like the idea of removing existing weapons, they are all cool it would be far too wasteful. Most ideas i've seen about nerfing projectile rifle usually bring annoying restrictions (for example, having random accuracy until you've stood still for X amount of seconds in scope mode; or slowing down your character's basic movement speed while the projectile rifle is equipped) that i believe would be as unfun to play with as it is to play against the current projectile rifle. I would rather just directly nerf projectile rifle's base damage since its burst potential is what makes it so strong given its range, and/or nerf/revert its projectile speed so that it is harder to use and less reliable at super long range. In beta we tested a considerable damage nerf (100 instead of 150 base damage) except for headshots which retain their full 150*3 damage.
 

Tylenol

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Go play the FA's with hitscan guns, it removes the whole dynamic of movement and imo leading in shots is the skill aspect of blasters, not only aiming.
"The skill of using guns is in playing shitty guessing games of where your opponent is gonna go instead of trying to aim and be precise"
 
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As an experienced SBD gunner, I put snipers into a separate category than standard gunners. Mainly because of their inability to quickly reload, in combination with my high HP count- which puts them at a disadvantage in medium to close quarters prolonged combat. Whenever a sniper is involved, my first course of action is to wait behind cover- and engage when the target is in 45-0% proximity. because they're the one who needs to approach me in order to reach the objective.

For organic rebels (100HP, usually on the offensive,) fighting snipers is another game entirely. One where your chance of dying instantly when traversing a room is calculated by subtracting your size from the space between the surrounding walls and ceiling. Which is to say- fighting snipers is only balanced when you (non multi life classes) can tank at-least one shot.

TL;DR

Having higher HP and (almost) Always being on the Defending side is the only thing that makes fighting snipers a fair fight. Without at-least one of those two variables, the sniper would always be at an advantage.
 
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CC-1119 'Appo'

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I don't like the idea of removing existing weapons, they are all cool it would be far too wasteful. Most ideas i've seen about nerfing projectile rifle usually bring annoying restrictions (for example, having random accuracy until you've stood still for X amount of seconds in scope mode; or slowing down your character's basic movement speed while the projectile rifle is equipped) that i believe would be as unfun to play with as it is to play against the current projectile rifle. I would rather just directly nerf projectile rifle's base damage since its burst potential is what makes it so strong given its range, and/or nerf/revert its projectile speed so that it is harder to use and less reliable at super long range. In beta we tested a considerable damage nerf (100 instead of 150 base damage) except for headshots which retain their full 150*3 damage.
100 base damage and a 3x multiplier on headshots is still too much on paper. Lower the velocity and people will just use it like a shotgun instead. It cannot deal that much damage outright - I'd say bodyshot damage at the absolute maximum should be around 60 - 70 damage with headshots clocking in at just about double that.

That's more than enough damage to seriously injure a target with a bodyshot and cripple them with a headshot which is relatively easy to do given the increased projectile speed compared to most other firearms.

In my view a better solution is for snipers to take the role of a support class rather than a pick class, dealing moderate chunks of damage to an opponent at long distances far easier than any other firearm due to the projectile speed. There's no need for them to be one-shotting or near one-shotting people to fulfill this role, dealing 60 - 70 damage to a one life class before they can close the distance is nothing to scoff at.
 
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CC-1119 'Appo'

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Nobody's gonna bother with them if you make them that bad. T-21 primary fire does 65 dmg, so why would you use the proj over it?
The T-21's primary fire has a velocity of 5175 units versus the Projectile Rifle's velocity of 10500 units. That increased projectile velocity alone makes all the difference both in a 1v1 setting and in a team fight, allowing the sniper a significantly easier time landing hits compared to the T-21. The only factor that might influence this, disregarding dodge, is that the T-21 player is usually on defense so they get first shot advantage and can negate a lot of the sniper's advantages.

A T-21 player also has to expose themselves to enemy fire to a far greater degree than a sniper who can more easily pick precise angles to fire off a shot, so while the projectile rifle would no wholly longer dominate the field in these situations it would still be competitively viable. Also consider that the sniper only has to to hit their opponent once in order to deal a pretty significant chunk of damage which can then be followed up with any number of sidearms they may carry because even with the projectile rifle price increase a hero can still afford an almost fully upgraded E-11, armor 3 and dash alongside the rifle. Headshots with the projectile rifle will even more drastically swing the balance of the fight in the projectile rifle's favour.

That being said, this assumes a rework is what is planned. I would not shed any tears if all snipers were removed from MB2's open mode. Would generally increase the overall skill required to win a fire fight. And lord knows classes like ARC/Mando definitely don't need snipers of any kind. But, that's just my view on things.
 
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LanceOfLonginus

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Reasons to currently use proj over T21:
Faster Projectile Speed
Higher Damage

Reasons to use Proj over T21 after dmg multiplier change:
Faster Projectile Speed
Higher Damage

Not seeing the dilemma here.
 
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Bruh, if this kind of nerf actually happens, the proj will be worse than the level 1 T-21. I understand that snipers are a problem and I do agree that something needs to be done about proj, but this kind of super radical nerf will just ruin this weapon together with Hero, because Hero is already struggling a bit compared to BH/Manda.

What I think should be done instead is exploring options that don't change the weapon itself all that much, like my suggestion to remove proj from Hero/BH and give it to commander/et as a weapon that can only be picked with 1 life. That doesn't make the weapon itself trash, which is good for people who like it, but ensures that snipers aren't amazing at both long and close ranges, since comm/et is considerably weaker than 1-life classes.
 

MaceMadunusus

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No hero has 100% accuracy with projectile, if u limit the ammo too much it forces to get 3 points into ammo which already makes him weaker in other aspect.
I personally already ALWAYS buy ammo 3 on other classes, just because I have to do what others suggest in this thread: suppress certain locations as i am advancing to prevent snipers from popping out. So not really unfair. It could also give other classes/people the opportunity to not do what I do more often.
 
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Either remove snipers altogether or add the smoke grenades/flashbangs from FA to the open mode. As it is right now I'm not having any fun many maps that are very open, smuggler shouldn't be my favorite map..
 
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I personally already ALWAYS buy ammo 3 on other classes, just because I have to do what others suggest in this thread: suppress certain locations as i am advancing to prevent snipers from popping out. So not really unfair. It could also give other classes/people the opportunity to not do what I do more often.
Right, I just wouldnt go with nerfing the ammo too much (less than 8 bullets would be bad) because you will end up using the projectile for the first minute and then play the rest of the round with pistol or e-11. Reducing the bodyshot damage and the projectile travel speed sounds better to me.

For disruptor I would keep the headshot high damage and nerf the bodyshot.

Just do as most shooter games, reward hitting the head as sniper and not so much for the bodyshots.
 
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Either remove snipers altogether or add the smoke grenades/flashbangs from FA to the open mode. As it is right now I'm not having any fun many maps that are very open, smuggler shouldn't be my favorite map..
oi this lads onto something. Just add in flashbangs and smoke grenades. Therefore people wont have to worry as much about peaking corridors and shit like that.
 

Rev

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I feel as though blasters did less damage in b17-rc1, can anyone confirm this?

My suggestion would be to lower the damage values on blasters against other gunners. They're fine vs Jedi and sith, however I feel as though getting one shotted over and over makes this more of a call of duty game than a Star Wars game about movie battles.

I think the addition of things like the westar scope and the ee-3 scope are fantastic. But the damage values, projectile speeds and such are bloated.

A lot of the fun in this game is dekeing out shots, but when you round a corner and get one shotted by a projectile rifle(or any blaster for that matter,)there's an issue. It promotes people who have awesome pings, frames, and reflexes, and heavily penalizes anyone who doesn't.
 

SomeGuy

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My feelings on sniper weapons are that they are way too mobile, pop sniping is the issue in my eyes. I don't want to see them gone because they do have a use in some maps and roles. I'd like to see how they fared if they were either unable to shoot or had obscene inaccuracy unless standing still for X amount of seconds. IE sniper has to stand still for ~2 seconds before firing for accurate shot. This sort of only affects proj, might not work for ARC/Mando; maybe make theirs a DMR rather than a sniper.
 
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Don't know if OP mentions it but maybe some guy already did: another important factor is that there is no risk at all for pop-up sniping, even with disruptor crouching behind cover, other than getting sniped yourself. Otherwise great job OP.

I did vote for Disruptor Beam Weapon Replacement even if that might be hard to balance. I'd propose that the damage gradually increases if you keep hitting your target so if you only hit once in a while it will do almost no damage.

I didn't vote for any Projectile Rifle changes since i don't want it removed but believe the only way to fix it is to fundamentally change how sniping works in the game. A dev proposed something once which made me create this thread: Revamping the way of sniping
This would also fix M5/EE3 sniping. But as long as this doesn't happen:
-Voted Zoom Only for M5. Would be cool to be able to mark enemies with it similar to tracking darts. Only radar tracking though.
-For EE3 either remove it or change it dramatically. Voted Option 3 for now.

I don't understand how changing values like damage/health/ammo would change anything about the current state of sniping. We see snipers picking apart whole teams anyway. So having to hit 1-2 more times per target just means they will need more time to do it with slightly increased exposure and maybe running out of ammo after killing only half of the enemy (gunner) team. Basically changing nothing of the gameplay dynamics.
 
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what is the point in posting these detailed manifestos if devs never use any of it and end up making the same mistakes in the next update
 
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