The current version of moviebattles is the worst balanced iteration since 2008

Posts
228
Likes
506
I have been playing the game since day 1 of b19 back in 2008 (?). I have played hundreds of matches and thousands of rounds on public servers at various times in the game's lifespan, played with and against the best players in the game so I feel like I have the experience to be able to say that v1.6 is the worst balanced version of MBII that I can remember. There are so many balance issues the game is hardly playable. I'm gonna try to keep this post as brief as possible but it's pretty much going to have to include almost every aspect of the game so strap in.

1. Saber vs gun.
I don't know there's a single person who plays this game and thinks the current saber vs gun balance is good (at least I hope there isn't). Before even getting into any details, the most important thing: fp drains. They're completely out of whack, for some guns they're a little too low (pistol 3, bowcaster, ee3), for others they are so low that there's almost no point shooting a jedi until he's actually swinging his saber at you (e11). Any jedi can strafe in front of any gunner and not lose fp fast enough to outpace passive regen. They can kill your teammate, have 20 fp, get out of IDR and regen their fp while you're continuously shooting them and there's nothing you can do about it. I was told there are some number tweaks for drains that didn't make it into the game from the beta and if that's the case I'm honestly dumbfounded how there wasn't a hotfix already (or, preferably, a year ago when everyone realized this is the situation).

Now, on to flinch vs knockback. I've made my position clear on the discord but I'll repeat it here. When I was on the beta team with M00, Hexodious and GoodOl'Ben we tried to implement a knockback mechanic on bodyshots scored within IDR and decided to scrap it, here's how things played out: if the knockback distance was too short, it wasn't punishing enough as the jedi could just try to swing again. If it was longer, the jedi would be knocked out of IDR and be allowed a free reset since the gunner could no longer drain his fp effectively. These tests resulted in the mechanic we had over the last however many versions, flinch, and I personally think it is a much better solution provided that the fp drains are in a good place. I don't understand the logic of going back to a mechanic that was scrapped in testing, but maybe there's something I'm missing here. In either case I think hotfixing the fp drains should have been a priority months ago when the new values were introduced and everyone instantly knew they were completely retarded.

2. Class balance.
I'm gonna go over some of the most recent changes but also some older ones, this is pretty much gonna include almost every class in the game and how I feel about their current states. I'm not gonna go into how each classes gun also drains too little force because that's a given and also covered above

- soldier and ET: starting off with what I think are the 2 best balanced classes in the game. These dudes should be the gold standard upon which all class design decisions are judged. Simple, high skill cap, low/medium skill floor, easy for new players to pick up but extremely deadly in the hands of a real boy gamer. Some extra flavour added with conc nades, dodge, a different gun for ETs, an amazing teamwork oriented ability in rally/assemble, fun to play and balanced. It's obviously a coincidence that neither soldier nor ET were touched in a meaningful way for at least 2-3 years.

- wookiee: on to what I think is the 2nd biggest offender after jedi, the wookiee bowcaster nerf was completely unwarranted and it ruined an extremely important dynamic of the game. Rebels are the attacking team on almost all maps. Rebels need attacking classes and that was the role the old wookiee bowcaster 2, str/hp 3 build did. You were a run & gun dead simple killing machine - immune to knockdowns, with a large hp pool and a strong gun but a huge hitbox and 0 utility to balance things out. Wookiees used to be strong, yes, but not overpowered, and more importantly they filled an important role in the reb team, being able to push, gain map control with their force-immune presence and deal massive damage at the same time. They were still very susceptible to well positioned bounty hunters, soldiers and especially ETs with t21 (which has since been nerfed for no reason as far as I remember) due to their large hitbox and slow movespeed. Perfect mix of balance, fun and team utility. Well, someone though it would be a good idea to ruin that and turn them into a gimmick class that almost has to use rage (I'm not gonna go into how stupid I think rage is because this post is gonna be too long). The current iteration, which has gained some of the rate of fire back and retained charged shot on bowcaster level 2 is still too weak and most importantly incapable of attacking imperials camping corridors which is what rebels NEED so badly. Charged shot promotes camping. Slow rate of fire promotes camping. Wookiees need to be frontline juggernauts, not sitting around a box charging up their gun. Their gun just doesn't match the rest of their kit and more importantly it doesn't match their role in the team.

- hero, bounty hunter: these 2 are together because I think the recent change to proj was very poorly thought out in the context of bounty hunters existing on the defending team. Let's compare the 2 big sniper rifles: proj and ruptor. Disruptor has always been much stronger because it's hitscan and because it's on the defending team (broadly speaking) which meant you could hold an angle and not be forced to take fights you don't want to take. Proj has slow bullets but heroes have dodge to balance it out. Well now the balance has been skewed in the imperials favour with the damage nerf for proj, now you've got a 1shot hitscan weapon vs a 2shot projectile weapon. I have around 1 billion hours on these 2 classes and personally think the perfect solution in terms of balancing them against eachother and the rest of the cast would be also nerfing disruptor's damage to something similar to current proj (2shot chest 1shot headshot) but returning the ability to hit into dodge with headshots. Now snipers wouldn't be as much of a threat to other classes unless they can score consistent headshots (near impossible in mb2 due to engine limitations) but at the same time the sniper vs sniper metagame would be balanced in a way where they can take eachother out with relative ease.

- mando, ARC: these 2 also go together for brevity but also because they suffer from similar issues. They are way too easy to kill and offer little power in return. Ever since the bullet speed increase years ago, the speed at which a mandalorian flies is just not enough. Their jetpacks need a major buff in terms of the ability to change direction to stop them being sitting ducks. I don't know what the solution is for ARCs, maybe give them max stamina and dex as baseline, but they definitely need SOMETHING to be able to compete, they've been absolute trash in 1v1 ever since I remember. I don't play them much so I don't have much to offer here but I play against them ARCs are pretty much free frags for almost every imperial class. Yes they have utility which is great and useful in some specific situations, but they're not fun to play in and of themselves because they're just so fucking weak in 1v1s.

3. Imp vs reb balance.
Yeah so if you've read through all that stuff in 2, some key concepts for rebel classes are so gimped right now that the imp vs reb balance is completely fucked. Broadly speaking rebels are the attacking team, imps are the defenders. Rebels need pushing power. They need classes that can get entry frags (used to be hero and wookiee), classes that take map control (used to be wookiee), classes that can flank (should be ARC, but how can you flank when you can't win a 1v1?). Right now they have none of those. Imperial classes are so much stronger in almost every facet of the game it feels worse than ever to play rebels. This is further exacerbated by the fact most maps are very defender biased, and I feel like that should also be taken into account when balancing the game and it really doesn't seem to be. Some of the changes made in recent updates sadly feel like they were decided on in a vacuum by some very poorly informed people and it shows in the game - look at the server list on any given day, how many people do you see that have played this game for more than a year or 2? I don't see any of the good players I used to play with and sure, you can say they just quit organically and it's probably true to some degree, but I know for a fact many people that I know don't play the game anymore because it's so poorly balanced. You may also say 'who cares about old players, we need new players!' and that is also a fair point, but if you wanna keep those new players around you need a well designed game. I really hope the dev team reads this and at least considers some of the things I say because you may or may not like it (and I know the dev team doesn't like my feedback and never did wanna listen to it) but I have more experience and game knowledge than almost anyone and so do my friends who agree with most if not all of the things in the post above. MB2 feels like it's on life support right now and it desperately needs some changes to bring the game back into its former glory.
 

Karus

Donator
Posts
367
Likes
517
I agree with lots of things here, but fuck me, you guys make it sound like balancing MBII is easy, lol.
Trust me, if it was that easy, it would have been done already.

Also, I don't even think the proj nerf is THAT bad. Like someone said earlier (sorry for not quoting im tired af), you still did the damage. Besides, it makes hitting headshots with proj more rewarding.

Not saying I'm agreeing with the nerf, but it's not as terrible as some are making it out to be.
I think my main gripe with Open at the moment is knockback, but as Tempest said, knockback on swingblock is already testable, (probably a few weeks (?) till testing, at least that would be my guess).

FP drains are a problem too, but honestly, as long as you're able to land your shots whilst they're swinging, it shouldn't be that big of a deal.
I think FP drains seem even more annoying right now because of knockback, but again, things are being worked on.

There are certain things that need prioritising over others, I think it would help if we changed the way we're providing feedback here on the forums, because even as a normal player, it looks super overwhelming.

Below is my opinion on what needs fixing, first to last (as of now):

Knockback > FP drains > Push range > Wookie > Proj(?) > Disruptor(?) > Other
 

Preston

Nerd
Posts
1,022
Likes
650
I agree with lots of things here, but fuck me, you guys make it sound like balancing MBII is easy, lol.
Trust me, if it was that easy, it would have been done already.

Also, I don't even think the proj nerf is THAT bad. Like someone said earlier (sorry for not quoting im tired af), you still did the damage. Besides, it makes hitting headshots with proj more rewarding.

Not saying I'm agreeing with the nerf, but it's not as terrible as some are making it out to be.
I think my main gripe with Open at the moment is knockback, but as Tempest said, knockback on swingblock is already testable, (probably a few weeks (?) till testing, at least that would be my guess).

FP drains are a problem too, but honestly, as long as you're able to land your shots whilst they're swinging, it shouldn't be that big of a deal.
I think FP drains seem even more annoying right now because of knockback, but again, things are being worked on.

There are certain things that need prioritising over others, I think it would help if we changed the way we're providing feedback here on the forums, because even as a normal player, it looks super overwhelming.

Below is my opinion on what needs fixing, first to last (as of now):

Knockback > FP drains > Push range > Wookie > Proj(?) > Disruptor(?) > Other
Agree with this tho I don't feel like proj or disruptor need any further changing tbh
 
Posts
79
Likes
103
FP drains are a problem too, but honestly, as long as you're able to land your shots whilst they're swinging, it shouldn't be that big of a deal.
That doesn't stop them from swinging because flinch is gone. What happens now is jedi will gladly take your 20 damage hp trade in exchange for killing you instantly. I have had multiple, MULTIPLE fucking encounters with retard jedi where I had to turn on sprint and fucking book it in full reverse the entire time while magdumping them, and they just do NOT fucking stop trying to swing at you.

It's a situation where these fuckheads could of, and really should of pushed me at any moment doing this, but they don't, because they don't fucking have to for 90% of their fights.

1580328274791.png
 

Karus

Donator
Posts
367
Likes
517
That doesn't stop them from swinging because flinch is gone.
What I was trying to say in my post, is that, knockback in itself isn't a bad mechanic, it just simply doesn't work the way we want it to, right now, and due to the fact that the devs have heard our countless winging and are making changes accordingly, we should probably start discussing ways to make knockback/other mechanics better (new ideas are a good thing!)
I have had multiple, MULTIPLE fucking encounters with retard jedi where I had to turn on sprint and fucking book it in full reverse the entire time while magdumping them, and they just do NOT fucking stop trying to swing at you.
Agreed, and this has always been a problem with Open saber gameplay, and probably always will be a problem. It's just a matter of giving players the proper mechanics to deal with it, hence flinch. Though, flinch had problems of it's own, and it would not have been removed in the first place if that was not the case.
Hopefully, once the knockback changes are tested, we can expect some gameplay improvement.
 
Posts
216
Likes
83
There's also something very off about very closed range gunplay that I think is more than just a panic thing, feels like shots just aren't that consistent when you get to a certain range and it gets really finicky when the bullets hit the saberists saber rather than their body and all these complications. I think it's an issue with the engine and can't be fixed by the devs and is why I prefer knockback over flinch. Because god do things get weird in close combat and I often find myself facehugging whenever i'm using pistol just because it seems to prevent people with higher rates of fire from consistently landing shots on me

If anyone is interested in testing this with a friend the clone rifle seems to act the strangest at close ranges. Strafe alongside a target and continuously fire at them. It might be placebo but I swear its as if shots aren't landing when they should
 
Posts
104
Likes
190
There's also something very off about very closed range gunplay that I think is more than just a panic thing, feels like shots just aren't that consistent when you get to a certain range and it gets really finicky when the bullets hit the saberists saber rather than their body and all these complications. I think it's an issue with the engine and can't be fixed by the devs and is why I prefer knockback over flinch. Because god do things get weird in close combat and I often find myself facehugging whenever i'm using pistol just because it seems to prevent people with higher rates of fire from consistently landing shots on me

If anyone is interested in testing this with a friend the clone rifle seems to act the strangest at close ranges. Strafe alongside a target and continuously fire at them. It might be placebo but I swear its as if shots aren't landing when they should
It's due to this (the closest thing I can find in the changelog influencing this sensation):

  • Change: Mandalorian Wrist Laser
    • Muzzlepoint standardized according to other guns but on the left side, instead of being tied to the hand position, and bolt trajectory made parallel to camera aim for better consistency instead of going to the center of the dynamic crosshair. This will be slightly inaccurate to the player's crosshair (slightly to its left), unless in melee because the crosshair positioning was adjusted in melee-only, specifically to cater to this wrist laser change.

I've never felt aiming to feel as inconsistent as this before in the last 14 years of the game's history. Other guns' muzzlepoints seem to be tampered, but it is clearly not stated so in the changelog, rather in a contrived way. Such a leap backwards for gun gameplay. Seems like more and more people are starting to notice it.
 
Last edited:

Fang

Donator
Posts
440
Likes
688
Meh, i noticed it on the first day of the patch, the aiming changes were weird at first but im so adjusted to it now so i guess im used to it
 
Posts
411
Likes
208
Just got to this thread and read the first few posts. I agree with nearly everything qwerty and Old Ben said.

@Tempest

ARC Suggestions:
Roll recovery should be a default ability for arc, or only require Dex 1.

Being an arc player myself, they definitely need cheaper abilities. Dex 3 is too much of a sacrifice, you get mobility, 1 gun, and that's it.

Dex 2 should have wallrun like Dex 3.

Stamina 3 costs too much and still doesn't regen fast enough. It fking takes forever to regen, and runs out too fast. Better than it was in the past, was even worse in earlier builds but still needs improvements.

Pulse nades have good range, but very little damage and too expensive. Should only be 8 points instead of 10, and nerfed against dekas somewhat.

You should be able to buy 2 rockets instead of having to invest in 1 or 3 (I can see why that might be OP though and make for less interesting builds; in that case make 3 rockets cost 25 points total (makes it a more tempting investment))

I also think the westar pulse launcher needs to be cheaper. 15 points to start!?! That's way too much. Should be 10 points for the gun, another 10 for another nade (or 8 if pulse nades drop price)




tl;dr: Buff stamina regen, decrease Dex levels cost and give roll recovery at dex level 1 or by default, level 2 rockets 25 points total, or allow arc to purchase only 2 rockets.


EDIT: Better idea, remove dex levels altogether, and make all dex abilities default, with the exception of push/pull roll resist, make that it's own ability.
 
Last edited:

Victin Halcyon

Donator
Posts
29
Likes
57
I realize this thread's been asleep for a couple months, but I have a question:

I'm an old player (started in B17 with the old, old Cloud City map and stuck around until 1.0, I think). I was an ARC Trooper main, dex 3, pistol 3. There was never a time in the 6-7 years that I played that pistol 3 ARCs and Mandos weren't beasts, and that build was the favoured of a lot of high-skill gunners (proj was the other one I remember being very popular in the DOTF corridor).

I guess my question is: what's happened to dex 3/pistol 3 ARCs that they sound so useless now? I've been thinking of coming back to see how the game's changed, but I'm very fond of and attached to that build. Is it still in the game, and does it still have the potential to dominate the way it used to? Or has the game changed drastically since, say, 1.0?
 

Karus

Donator
Posts
367
Likes
517
I realize this thread's been asleep for a couple months, but I have a question:

I'm an old player (started in B17 with the old, old Cloud City map and stuck around until 1.0, I think). I was an ARC Trooper main, dex 3, pistol 3. There was never a time in the 6-7 years that I played that pistol 3 ARCs and Mandos weren't beasts, and that build was the favoured of a lot of high-skill gunners (proj was the other one I remember being very popular in the DOTF corridor).

I guess my question is: what's happened to dex 3/pistol 3 ARCs that they sound so useless now? I've been thinking of coming back to see how the game's changed, but I'm very fond of and attached to that build. Is it still in the game, and does it still have the potential to dominate the way it used to? Or has the game changed drastically since, say, 1.0?
Not sure what changes Arc has had since 1.0, but needless to say it's definitely not favourable atm (P3).
Though, I say, give it a go.
 
Posts
228
Likes
506
I realize this thread's been asleep for a couple months, but I have a question:

I'm an old player (started in B17 with the old, old Cloud City map and stuck around until 1.0, I think). I was an ARC Trooper main, dex 3, pistol 3. There was never a time in the 6-7 years that I played that pistol 3 ARCs and Mandos weren't beasts, and that build was the favoured of a lot of high-skill gunners (proj was the other one I remember being very popular in the DOTF corridor).

I guess my question is: what's happened to dex 3/pistol 3 ARCs that they sound so useless now? I've been thinking of coming back to see how the game's changed, but I'm very fond of and attached to that build. Is it still in the game, and does it still have the potential to dominate the way it used to? Or has the game changed drastically since, say, 1.0?

they're still fairly strong and arc in general is S tier. the main reason people don't play them as much anymore is because M5 is much stronger but if you like the playstyle and don't mind playing with a strictly worse weapon choice then duals can still be very effective

i think i should reiterate again as i've played more in the newer versions, my initial take on ARCs in the OP is completely wrong, they're one of the best classes right now
 

Victin Halcyon

Donator
Posts
29
Likes
57
they're still fairly strong and arc in general is S tier. the main reason people don't play them as much anymore is because M5 is much stronger but if you like the playstyle and don't mind playing with a strictly worse weapon choice then duals can still be very effective

i think i should reiterate again as i've played more in the newer versions, my initial take on ARCs in the OP is completely wrong, they're one of the best classes right now

Glad to hear it. I remember when the M5 was added, and it had good adoption--the main draw of the pistols for me were their perfect accuracy and bounce, even if, strictly speaking, there were higher-damage weapons on offer.
 

The Unguided

Moderator
Movie Battles II Team
Posts
282
Likes
250
I agree with Mando/ARC part as whole.

As for Hero/BH - I wouldn't nerf Disruptor damage. Do not fix what is not broken.
Whatever Proj Rifle turns out to be, I have always got shot down by one hit whether chest or not - except some extreme classes or high armor ofc. Even if it takes 2 shots in the chest, after the first shot the damaged player should have super low HP, being able to be killed by a relatively weak damage followingly. And even that would be a kind of mehish if you ask me. I mean, it's a goddamn sniper bullet, average classes should not survive that unless it hits legs. Plus, being a sniper should take some skill. High risk - high reward.

As for saber vs. guns: flinch vs. knockback. I know it will be an unpopular opinion, but I feel like both came to existence because gunners can't aim. A gunner has whether reinf/more HP/grenades/blobs/cortosis or something extra to kill Jedi/Sith. Remove swingblock deflection, fine. Then again, all the gunners have to do is not being a potatoe tactically speaking and learn to aim properly. Aim takes skill yes, but that's inherent of playing as gunners. And as Ben said, FP drains are more important at the end.

As for wookiees: I don't think rage is a bad thing when it comes to wooks being offensive and "in-the-front" classes as you say. Wookiees are the the krogans of Star Wars, so they should be. I have no idea why Bowcaster was nerfed, it made gameplay more flat as I see. I'd probably go with something like Ben says about the weapon. Or something like a more tricky Bowcaster like the base JK one.
 
Last edited:
Posts
43
Likes
10
Flinch was way better than this half-baked knockback (full knockback would be even more ridiculous IMO, like shots having force push >_<).
High drain, high regen is a bad idea in my book, too.

I realize this is about balance, however the class-change bug regularly ticks me off even more.
 
Top