The current version of moviebattles is the worst balanced iteration since 2008

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I have been playing the game since day 1 of b19 back in 2008 (?). I have played hundreds of matches and thousands of rounds on public servers at various times in the game's lifespan, played with and against the best players in the game so I feel like I have the experience to be able to say that v1.6 is the worst balanced version of MBII that I can remember. There are so many balance issues the game is hardly playable. I'm gonna try to keep this post as brief as possible but it's pretty much going to have to include almost every aspect of the game so strap in.

1. Saber vs gun.
I don't know there's a single person who plays this game and thinks the current saber vs gun balance is good (at least I hope there isn't). Before even getting into any details, the most important thing: fp drains. They're completely out of whack, for some guns they're a little too low (pistol 3, bowcaster, ee3), for others they are so low that there's almost no point shooting a jedi until he's actually swinging his saber at you (e11). Any jedi can strafe in front of any gunner and not lose fp fast enough to outpace passive regen. They can kill your teammate, have 20 fp, get out of IDR and regen their fp while you're continuously shooting them and there's nothing you can do about it. I was told there are some number tweaks for drains that didn't make it into the game from the beta and if that's the case I'm honestly dumbfounded how there wasn't a hotfix already (or, preferably, a year ago when everyone realized this is the situation).

Now, on to flinch vs knockback. I've made my position clear on the discord but I'll repeat it here. When I was on the beta team with M00, Hexodious and GoodOl'Ben we tried to implement a knockback mechanic on bodyshots scored within IDR and decided to scrap it, here's how things played out: if the knockback distance was too short, it wasn't punishing enough as the jedi could just try to swing again. If it was longer, the jedi would be knocked out of IDR and be allowed a free reset since the gunner could no longer drain his fp effectively. These tests resulted in the mechanic we had over the last however many versions, flinch, and I personally think it is a much better solution provided that the fp drains are in a good place. I don't understand the logic of going back to a mechanic that was scrapped in testing, but maybe there's something I'm missing here. In either case I think hotfixing the fp drains should have been a priority months ago when the new values were introduced and everyone instantly knew they were completely retarded.

2. Class balance.
I'm gonna go over some of the most recent changes but also some older ones, this is pretty much gonna include almost every class in the game and how I feel about their current states. I'm not gonna go into how each classes gun also drains too little force because that's a given and also covered above

- soldier and ET: starting off with what I think are the 2 best balanced classes in the game. These dudes should be the gold standard upon which all class design decisions are judged. Simple, high skill cap, low/medium skill floor, easy for new players to pick up but extremely deadly in the hands of a real boy gamer. Some extra flavour added with conc nades, dodge, a different gun for ETs, an amazing teamwork oriented ability in rally/assemble, fun to play and balanced. It's obviously a coincidence that neither soldier nor ET were touched in a meaningful way for at least 2-3 years.

- wookiee: on to what I think is the 2nd biggest offender after jedi, the wookiee bowcaster nerf was completely unwarranted and it ruined an extremely important dynamic of the game. Rebels are the attacking team on almost all maps. Rebels need attacking classes and that was the role the old wookiee bowcaster 2, str/hp 3 build did. You were a run & gun dead simple killing machine - immune to knockdowns, with a large hp pool and a strong gun but a huge hitbox and 0 utility to balance things out. Wookiees used to be strong, yes, but not overpowered, and more importantly they filled an important role in the reb team, being able to push, gain map control with their force-immune presence and deal massive damage at the same time. They were still very susceptible to well positioned bounty hunters, soldiers and especially ETs with t21 (which has since been nerfed for no reason as far as I remember) due to their large hitbox and slow movespeed. Perfect mix of balance, fun and team utility. Well, someone though it would be a good idea to ruin that and turn them into a gimmick class that almost has to use rage (I'm not gonna go into how stupid I think rage is because this post is gonna be too long). The current iteration, which has gained some of the rate of fire back and retained charged shot on bowcaster level 2 is still too weak and most importantly incapable of attacking imperials camping corridors which is what rebels NEED so badly. Charged shot promotes camping. Slow rate of fire promotes camping. Wookiees need to be frontline juggernauts, not sitting around a box charging up their gun. Their gun just doesn't match the rest of their kit and more importantly it doesn't match their role in the team.

- hero, bounty hunter: these 2 are together because I think the recent change to proj was very poorly thought out in the context of bounty hunters existing on the defending team. Let's compare the 2 big sniper rifles: proj and ruptor. Disruptor has always been much stronger because it's hitscan and because it's on the defending team (broadly speaking) which meant you could hold an angle and not be forced to take fights you don't want to take. Proj has slow bullets but heroes have dodge to balance it out. Well now the balance has been skewed in the imperials favour with the damage nerf for proj, now you've got a 1shot hitscan weapon vs a 2shot projectile weapon. I have around 1 billion hours on these 2 classes and personally think the perfect solution in terms of balancing them against eachother and the rest of the cast would be also nerfing disruptor's damage to something similar to current proj (2shot chest 1shot headshot) but returning the ability to hit into dodge with headshots. Now snipers wouldn't be as much of a threat to other classes unless they can score consistent headshots (near impossible in mb2 due to engine limitations) but at the same time the sniper vs sniper metagame would be balanced in a way where they can take eachother out with relative ease.

- mando, ARC: these 2 also go together for brevity but also because they suffer from similar issues. They are way too easy to kill and offer little power in return. Ever since the bullet speed increase years ago, the speed at which a mandalorian flies is just not enough. Their jetpacks need a major buff in terms of the ability to change direction to stop them being sitting ducks. I don't know what the solution is for ARCs, maybe give them max stamina and dex as baseline, but they definitely need SOMETHING to be able to compete, they've been absolute trash in 1v1 ever since I remember. I don't play them much so I don't have much to offer here but I play against them ARCs are pretty much free frags for almost every imperial class. Yes they have utility which is great and useful in some specific situations, but they're not fun to play in and of themselves because they're just so fucking weak in 1v1s.

3. Imp vs reb balance.
Yeah so if you've read through all that stuff in 2, some key concepts for rebel classes are so gimped right now that the imp vs reb balance is completely fucked. Broadly speaking rebels are the attacking team, imps are the defenders. Rebels need pushing power. They need classes that can get entry frags (used to be hero and wookiee), classes that take map control (used to be wookiee), classes that can flank (should be ARC, but how can you flank when you can't win a 1v1?). Right now they have none of those. Imperial classes are so much stronger in almost every facet of the game it feels worse than ever to play rebels. This is further exacerbated by the fact most maps are very defender biased, and I feel like that should also be taken into account when balancing the game and it really doesn't seem to be. Some of the changes made in recent updates sadly feel like they were decided on in a vacuum by some very poorly informed people and it shows in the game - look at the server list on any given day, how many people do you see that have played this game for more than a year or 2? I don't see any of the good players I used to play with and sure, you can say they just quit organically and it's probably true to some degree, but I know for a fact many people that I know don't play the game anymore because it's so poorly balanced. You may also say 'who cares about old players, we need new players!' and that is also a fair point, but if you wanna keep those new players around you need a well designed game. I really hope the dev team reads this and at least considers some of the things I say because you may or may not like it (and I know the dev team doesn't like my feedback and never did wanna listen to it) but I have more experience and game knowledge than almost anyone and so do my friends who agree with most if not all of the things in the post above. MB2 feels like it's on life support right now and it desperately needs some changes to bring the game back into its former glory.
 
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I like the idea of having only temporary health gains and I love the potential of having a regen armour pool. There are some issues with this however as it could actually encourage more passive play - peaking out then returning to cover to regen.
 
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Another class that I think could benefit from something like this is the ARC. It's called an Advanced RECON Commando, yet there is nothing related to reconnaissance in his kit.
he used to be the fastest class on rebels but yall fucking gutted that thinking it had anything to do with his ability to kill enemies

i'd rather arc be buffed out of being the shittiest 1life gunner than have people trying to wrench him into being le quirky scout just because his name happened to have recon in it. you go through with that and next thing you know dipshits will be flooding into arc balance conversations insisting he's a """scout""" so he's not supposed to be fighting people despite the fact he has a goddamn rocket launcher (that he can never afford)
 
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You quoted a longroute speedrun and posted a short route video

??? Those are two different categories, what the fuck are you doing

Um, the point of a speedrun is to pick the fastest route, moreover I did not see you mention or refer to your 'categories' in any manner....... I'm probably feeding your autism by this point anyway, so enough of the digressing.
 
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Um, the point of a speedrun is to pick the fastest route,
the point of a speedrun is to go fast.

that's it. you go fast. other categories exist because they're harder, more impressive, or extremely weird.

1579828593238.png
 

GoodOl'Ben

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despite the fact he has a goddamn rocket launcher (that he can never afford)

I think you may be speedrunning this thread a little too fast right now since you missed this entire paragraph I penned previously:

Me in this very same thread said:
The ARC is an interesting class to think about as well. The class has a lot of exciting interactions, but they are generally locked behind specific builds. Dexterity 3 in particular makes the class super unique and powerful in 1v1. However, it's a 30 point investment. This is 3 rockets you can't get. It's 3 pulses. The trade-off is definitely compelling, but I think it may be too absolute. Start off by dropping the Dex costs and let's see where ARC lands after that. Something like 2-4-8 could prove interesting. This gives Dex 3 builds a total of 16 points more to work with, which in turn would be a huge power spike, due to the additional utility you can afford.

:)
 
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I think you may be speedrunning this thread a little too fast right now since you missed this entire paragraph I penned previously:
that wasn't my point at all. my point is if you start shoving this weird "scouting" shit into arc then people are going to start insisting arc is "a scout, he isn't supposed to fight people because hE's a ScOuT because He'S rEcOn!!!!" the same way people insist jedi is SUPPOSED to be fucking broken because it's a jedi, which is shit arc doesn't need on it's plate because arc already has problems with it's complete dogshit combat power.

you literally glanced at my post and thought the complaint was about his costs, when the complaint was about how going through with that is going to force a bullshit expectation on arc in a game literally only about killing the enemy team, when arc already fucking sucks at that. speaking of speedrunning, dude.

arc doesn't need people tearing down any potential he has for getting buffs with "oh scouts don't fight though" in the same way people tear down any potential for jedi getting nerfs with "oh but they're jedi and jedi are STRONG!!" "what about the people who spent years learning it? (after yall fucked the saber system up like 3 times lol)" etc.
 
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It's nice to see good ideas put forward but I'm very skeptical the dev team will address these issues in a timely or effective manner. The feedback loop that put us in this VERY BAD position with regard to balance is still in place and thus none of the good ideas in this thread will be implemented because tranny devs don't want to listen to us because we're mean to them.
 
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that wasn't my point at all. my point is if you start shoving this weird "scouting" shit into arc then people are going to start insisting arc is "a scout, he isn't supposed to fight people because hE's a ScOuT because He'S rEcOn!!!!"
Nice assumption, you're really way over your head if you start making deductions on behalf of the community.

Anyway, arcs combat ability isn't 'absolutely dogshit', it has horrible point values due to dex points mostly, dex 3 is always what you want and it narrows down your selection of gear you can take, basically the only okay build for arc is m5/pistols with dex 3. The manueverability is what gives arc everything, rest is up to you and your skills.. However it would be nice to fit more kit in with dex 3. Not to mention m5 ammo conservability compared to other weapons is still rubbish.
 
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Nice assumption, you're really way over your head if you start making deductions on behalf of the community.
We're literally looking at a post of a guy suggesting the arc get some dumb scouting shit because of a word that happens to be in the class name. Let me remind you, special 1 and 2 are already taken up by sprint and forward roll. So either people have to find a bind for special 3 which most classes don't use or we're going to have another gun in our inventory that we may or may not have to fucking pay for just so we can point out to people that yes, there ARE people on the other side of dotf hallway, who would of fucking guessed.

Anyway, arcs combat ability isn't 'absolutely dogshit',
Yes it is.

basically the only okay build for arc is m5/pistols with dex 3.
These are literally a pair of normal ass guns with the pistols being able to get lucky backshots on people. No grenades. No rockets. Not a chance in hell you get a sniper doing this unless you start chunking armor/ammo for this. You're literally a fucking sold with jediflips. That isn't good. Jumping around a lot won't save you from snipers who are actually good at videogames either.

That's what "the typical arc build" has. Some dualies and a rifle that may or may not be perfectly accurate depending on build. You're not a killing machine because affording the grenade launcher/rockets aren't an option (nades and rocket get countered very easily by jedi so DON'T FUCK IT UP), and affording the scope is possible but requires applying a scalpel to your own flesh. If you take scope your m5 now has ammo problems. If you can't afford m5 lv2 while taking scope you need to do very specific things in order to make it worth using.

Meanwhile mandos get a push resistant jetpack, flamethrower for cucking block, a rocket, sniper rifles, dualies, etc and one mando could deadass slay like a third of your team on it's own. BH has a fucking arsenal to work with, poison, and giga nade. Solds and commanders get normal ass guns too, but the difference is you get anywhere from two to three of them, so it's okay to get fucked and die like a punk, because you'll be back. And you'll also have grenades. The shit arc can't without some harsh sacrifices. A fucking sold is loaded down with more killing power than most arcs are.

Also even with dex3, a jedi with push will still get you killed in most scenarios, just like anyone else.
 

Fang

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I think one of the biggest reasons many of us dont bother with the beta team is to how slow and or otherwise, uncivilized it feels in there. I tried it, and I thought it was probably the biggest joke. At least back then, everyone in that beta squad were typical jedi mains. With 0 gunner awareness and putting forward the shittiest ideas to buff the class. It's off putting, the beta team needs to consider a variety of opinions and restrict the amount of voices from a certain group of enthuasists to prevent this retarded outcome of jedi/sith buffs.

I've watched mandos go from swole projectile rifle warrior to these flies easily swattable out of the skies. Jedi go from Q3 W swingers to DR W swingers ''gods'' and hero continue to be the ''what should i play on rebs? Looks like hero, it has everything anyway.''

Arc honestly, those bouncy pistols are the only reason I use it. I'll not understand why the class, by default, is slow.

I've played European for years and years, American servers for years. Probably at this point consider myself at least on the skill ceiling of some of the higher players in both regions.

If someone completely under-skilled and/or otherwise beneath my own skill is able to hold w at me then there's an issue. That is literally the biggest insult to anyone at higher levels. To be shat on by some newb who associates W further due to the kill potential because knockback is not present, DR negates it, swingblock, whatever lmao

Imperials generally get better/interesting classes, have a higher pool of defence sided maps and chokepoints that make rebels cringe when it comes to push power as imperials are loaded with firepower. Deka literally requires special attention to push through without a committed pulse arc (which by the way, is already too expensive to build a decent arc build. It's either full speed, 0 utility or walking headshot, and all the utility.)

Devs should really ask themselves a simple question.

Are we just wanting people at this point to play? Then just let the mod rot in inbalance.
Do you guys want teamplay? Because thats what objectives and rebs vs imps are screaming to me? If so, balancing is needed starting with the most obvious class that has taken priority for almost 10 patches in favor of them.


I do disagree with ''worst since 2008'', we'd still be living in the stone age of mb2 with 0 interesting things.
 
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At least back then, everyone in that beta squad were typical jedi mains. With 0 gunner awareness and putting forward the shittiest ideas to buff the class. It's off putting, the beta team needs to consider a variety of opinions and restrict the amount of voices from a certain group of enthuasists to prevent this retarded outcome of jedi/sith buffs.
everything cool or fun that could possibly be suggested as an addition to this game will eternally be filtered through the sieve that is "But what about JEDI?" as if it's perfectly fucking fine that one class has oppressed, minimum, five other classes pretty much as long as this game has been alive.

nevermind that some classes have needed help for literal years, buffing them might make the jedi nervous, and we can't have that.

If someone completely under-skilled and/or otherwise beneath my own skill is able to hold w at me then there's an issue. That is literally the biggest insult to anyone at higher levels. To be shat on by some newb who associates W further due to the kill potential because knockback is not present, DR negates it, swingblock, whatever lmao
fp drain values are so low that without flinch, it is literally impossible to drain a jedi's FP meter before he, literal, and i mean an exact zero exaggeration when i say this, "w+m1"s you to death. it didn't matter that you couldn't drain a jedi's fp before, because flinch was your actual tool for keeping shitters in check, so the low fp drain made sense because it would mean that jedi could reasonably "get in" even versus 2-3 gunners, they have to "get in", obviously, but if they fucked up swings they would get punished for it, like any class should be when they're retarded and fuck up.

but no, flinch is gone and jedi retain their enormous bullet resilience arbitrarily F U C K I T
 

Tempest

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I think most of the issues with gameplay balance have been lack of direction where it's mostly just been "what sounds like it needs to be adjusted" instead of objectively looking at things and saying "this needs to be adjusted", which ends up in circular loops (knockback flinch knockback etc). Saying that Jedi/Sith have been favored is just ignorance. All of the things aimed at making baseline saberist put in its place just haven't been put in (see gunner beta where every below average saberist got absolutely destroyed). I don't think @Hexodious even bothered with looking at Jedi/Sith for all of the class buffs/tweaks he's been working on either. FP drains are the first thing on the itinerary for being tested and adjusted moving forward (knockback adjustments dependent on that, though I already have a testable iteration of knockback on swingblock as well).
 
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