Suggestion about wookies immunity to the Force.

[Tisio]

I suggest a compromise,i understand that if wook becomes vulnerable to telekinesis - that will be disbalance again,but now from forcewielder side.
So would be very good improvement to make wook vulnerable only to grip 3,because it really takes time to grip someone,so it shouldn't be as OP towards the wookie as push/pull,superpush and repulse.And those who adore to play forceuser without saber(There are such players) could have at least something to counter strength 3 wookie.Also would be fair to make wook vulnerable to grip superpush.

 

[SeV]

Ok, how about that

He crouched, which used to be a valid counterplay. He attempted to 4-hit the wook but first 2 swings were eaten by the barge. In fact it would probably be better for him if he didn't crouch, wook would launch him away, he'd be able to do a quick get-up and survive.
My point is that sith timed everything perfectly, there was literally nothing else he could do to kill the wook and the only counterplay they used to have is more than pointless now. I'm just a silly gunner main so maybe I'm missing something, but what can you do in situation like this other than just running away and hope that he won't catch you until his fury runs off?

I would be ok with barge stagger if their force resistance was nerfed a bit. Push/pull definitely shouldn't knock them down like some ppl suggested here imo, that would be 2 much. But it could have a similar effect as it has on sbds, slightly moving them away to give you some room to breathe. It would giveimps more options to deal with charging wook instead of just panicking when they see one, and could make melee wook vs sith duels actually interesting and interactive.

There's no counterplay other than running away, which is just completely retarded game design. The sith crouched properly and even got in TWO lightsaber hits, yet this no skill carpet is just holding down two mouse buttons and winning. It's gross beyond my ability to express it, and this shit needs to be gone from MBII.

 

[jacedagoat]

The way rage accumulates just doesn't work in open. A lot of times there will be AFKs and wookiees can feed off them especially if there are no proper admins on. One afk kill fills the entire rage bar up and the amount of people you can kill with one strategized push with rage (let's pretend if running in just holding m1+m2 was strategic) is insane and can turn the tides completely.

 

[Ronin']

Rage generation needs a nerf or force abilities v wookiee's need a buff (as spy suggested), perhaps both?

Two punches on a soldier / afk player should not be giving you a full rage bar that grants the ability to take out an entire room of Imps by holding w+m1

And as many others have already stated, a Sith's only option shouldn't be running away

 

[Kodar]

Ok, how about that

He crouched, which used to be a valid counterplay. He attempted to 4-hit the wook but first 2 swings were eaten by the barge. In fact it would probably be better for him if he didn't crouch, wook would launch him away, he'd be able to do a quick get-up and survive.
My point is that sith timed everything perfectly, there was literally nothing else he could do to kill the wook and the only counterplay they used to have is more than pointless now. I'm just a silly gunner main so maybe I'm missing something, but what can you do in situation like this other than just running away and hope that he won't catch you until his fury runs off?

I would be ok with barge stagger if their force resistance was nerfed a bit. Push/pull definitely shouldn't knock them down like some ppl suggested here imo, that would be 2 much. But it could have a similar effect as it has on sbds, slightly moving them away to give you some room to breathe. It would giveimps more options to deal with charging wook instead of just panicking when they see one, and could make melee wook vs sith duels actually interesting and interactive.

The entire reason the barge stagger was added was due to the issue of Sith counterplay consisting of holding the crouch key and auto-winning every engagement by default. The sith also did not time everything perfectly seeing as he could've gone for a clean horizontal combo swing only, and instead went for a W swing, which threw his timing off severely. He would've landed 3 hits instead of 2, likely killing the wook as a result.

The primary issue is that Wook melee is predicated around rage, which is heavily predicated around poor play by imps. There is a reason I don't see this issue as commonly on more sweaty servers, because people actually shoot the wook and don't feed him 24/7. When you're playing with day 1 players who don't know better or afks as a regular issue, they can easily get loose due to a full meter of rage. That is a reward for killing an enemy as a limited resource, so it's naturally strong. I'm not sure how you can really balance that without a significant re-work of the entire class mechanic.

Shit, you can always just pull out blast armor SBD, hold crouch, and aim at head height. That still works even in this patch.

Edit: Also that staff user W swung L0L One of staff's slowest swings, when a wook is face hugging him, and he W swings? If he just went ADAD he gets out of there with far more HP. Plus, he won the engagement by just holding the crouch key and the wook over-engaged like a pepega.

 

[Kodar]

everything you need to know about current state of melee wook:

it's basically a 0 skill build on this class, you kill a soldier that has basically no way of killing you and it gives you the ability to kill 5 imps by activating rage. It was already frustrating before the barge stagger was added but i guess there was some forum thread from a newbie that cried about red being op vs wooks. Now even if you do everything correctly you're gonna leave with low HP (or die, even when the wook doesn't use rage) just because the wook pressed 1 of his 2 "win buttons".
As for bowcaster wook, i played it quite a bit past few days and the FP drains seem a bit too high but at least it struggles a lot vs snipers and any gunner with good aim since it's so slow and big.

Again, the barge stagger was added to resolve the issue of Sith holding crouch and auto-winning against wooks. Barge was too strong upon addition, and was nerfed to its current state.
I do not want a return to the old braindead state where Sith just auto-win against wooks because they can hold the crouch key all day.
I can work with a push to an overall rework instead.

 

[Kodar]

Rage generation needs a nerf or force abilities v wookiee's need a buff (as spy suggested), perhaps both?

Two punches on a soldier / afk player should not be giving you a full rage bar that grants the ability to take out an entire room of Imps by holding w+m1

And as many others have already stated, a Sith's only option shouldn't be running away

Killing a sold does not give a wook full rage. If you don't even know the basic stuff, please don't bother.

 

[Kodar]

The way rage accumulates just doesn't work in open. A lot of times there will be AFKs and wookiees can feed off them especially if there are no proper admins on. One afk kill fills the entire rage bar up and the amount of people you can kill with one strategized push with rage (let's pretend if running in just holding m1+m2 was strategic) is insane and can turn the tides completely.

How do you balance around afks? That just opens a stupid can of worms where none of us win.

 

[Fluffy |>]

btw you dont have to make a new post to respond to every person individually, you can do a multiquote to reduce spam

 

[SrsSpy]

The entire reason the barge stagger was added was due to the issue of Sith counterplay consisting of holding the crouch key and auto-winning every engagement by default.

Alright, but the problem is that now there is no counterplay at all. There gotta be a better way to do this, crouching is sometimes even worse than letting wook just hit you even after the 'nerf'.

The sith also did not time everything perfectly seeing as he could've gone for a clean horizontal combo swing only, and instead went for a W swing, which threw his timing off severely. He would've landed 3 hits instead of 2, likely killing the wook as a result.

That's not true. He went for horizontal, got staggered which messed up his swing timing and ended up doing one w swing probably because of movement input. Then he tried to finish his 4-hit horizontal combo, but even if you can't see it in the stagger's animation, barge actually interrupted 2 swings, not just the initial one. You can clearly see the combo reset when he makes an attempt to do another horizontal swing before dying. Even if he'd somehow manage to adjust his input to do all horizontals, combo reset would prevent him from hitting the wook for the third time anyway.

I don't think that there's much point in overanalyzing my video. I posted it only because I wanted to show that wook vs sith gameplay is kinda dumb and maybe we should try to think of a better solution to the problem.

The primary issue is that Wook melee is predicated around rage, which is heavily predicated around poor play by imps. There is a reason I don't see this issue as commonly on more sweaty servers, because people actually shoot the wook and don't feed him 24/7.

Yes, the issue isn't that serious when you are surrouned by an army of ally gunners and let them do the job. That's not really what this thread is about though.

 

[Kodar]

Alright, but the problem is that now there is no counterplay at all. There gotta be a better way to do this, crouching is sometimes even worse than letting wook just hit you even after the 'nerf'.



That's not true. He went for horizontal, got staggered which messed up his swing timing and ended up doing one w swing probably because of movement input. Then he tried to finish his 4-hit horizontal combo, but even if you can't see it in the stagger's animation, barge actually interrupted 2 swings, not just the initial one. You can clearly see the combo reset when he makes an attempt to do another horizontal swing before dying. Even if he'd somehow manage to adjust his input to do all horizontals, combo reset would prevent him from hitting the wook for the third time anyway.

I don't think that there's much point in overanalyzing my video. I posted it only because I wanted to show that wook vs sith gameplay is kinda dumb and maybe we should try to think of a better solution to the problem.

There is a counterplay. It's not just Sith in the game, and Sith can still crouch to knock out a significant amount of the trouble they face and return swings in time. To make not-crouching preferable would require the barge to launch the sith a very hefty distance, which is far from guaranteed. You even confirmed what I said about the Sith's combo getting messed up. He could absolutely have corrected that swing, as W swinging against a wook is asking for a quick return to the spectator screen. That's not even unreasonable to do.

If this is an issue with enraged wooks, then I refer back to the point that it's a mechanic that only comes into play after a wook gets a kill, and they are not unstoppable freight trains. The easiest solution is just proper positioning to prevent rage altogether. I've seen more than a handful of enraged wooks get executed.

If this is an issue of wooks in general, then it's rather silly seeing as how that 400 hp disappears in a blink since they have no damage reduction of any kind and headshot multipliers are absolutely crazy right now. Caster wooks are currently glass cannons due to this.

While I'm okay with pushing for a better solution, I'm particularly concerned with some extremely poor takes in this thread. We've had an issue in the MB2 community going back years of extreme solutions being applied to problems rather than nuanced ones. It results in dead classes who are neglected in horrific fashion.

Yes, the issue isn't that serious when you are surrouned by an army of ally gunners and let them do the job. That's not really what this thread is about though.

Well that's the thing bud. This is a team game, not a solo one. If we start balancing around 1v1s too much, we're in for a world of hurt.

 

[kvinto]

Again, the barge stagger was added to resolve the issue of Sith holding crouch and auto-winning against wooks. Barge was too strong upon addition, and was nerfed to its current state.
I do not want a return to the old braindead state where Sith just auto-win against wooks because they can hold the crouch key all day.
I can work with a push to an overall rework instead.

That wasn't the whole dynamic of the engagement at all. Sith can't kill you "just by crouching", he had to get to you by running unless its some tiny corridor and you can't get through otherwise. It was based on having good reactions and keeping proper amount of space between yourself and the wook. It was in a much better state than it is now, which is the "braindead state where wook can just auto-win because they can hold W key all day. Melee wook was completely fine (at least vs sith) in that regard before the stagger and no good sith built red cause its so useless vs anything other than wook.

Edit: Also that staff user W swung L0L One of staff's slowest swings, when a wook is face hugging him, and he W swings? If he just went ADAD he gets out of there with far more HP. Plus, he won the engagement by just holding the crouch key and the wook over-engaged like a pepega.

I'm sorry i didn't predict that on my 1st round vs wook after the "nerf" the game is still gonna be fucked and i'm gonna get staggered twice which fucked up my timing, it would leave me with 20hp instead which is still 1shot from basically any gun. It's like you completely missed the point of it, maybe try slowing the video a bit if it's too fast for you.

There is a counterplay. It's not just Sith in the game

except that sith and snipers are supposed to be the counterplay. Sith is the frontline class for imps that's supposed to protect the gunners.

 

[Kodar]

That wasn't the whole dynamic of the engagement at all. Sith can't kill you "just by crouching", he had to get to you by running unless its some tiny corridor and you can't get through otherwise. It was based on having good reactions and keeping proper amount of space between yourself and the wook. It was in a much better state than it is now, which is the "braindead state where wook can just auto-win because they can hold W key all day. Melee wook was completely fine (at least vs sith) in that regard before the stagger and no good sith built red cause its so useless vs anything other than wook.

I'm sorry i didn't predict that on my 1st round vs wook after the "nerf" the game is still gonna be fucked and i'm gonna get staggered twice which fucked up my timing, it would leave me with 20hp instead which is still 1shot from basically any gun. It's like you completely missed the point of it, maybe try slowing the video a bit if it's too fast for you.

except that sith and snipers are supposed to be the counterplay. Sith is the frontline class for imps that's supposed to protect the gunners.

There was no counterplay to sith as wook during that build. Imps are almost always on defense, and rebs have to go through them. Do tell, how the wook is supposed to go through the sith who can literally hold crouch and just wait to swing? There was no mind game. There was nothing the wook could do except wait on someone else to deal with the sith or pray that the sith was bad.
Plus, even in its current state, wook can still very much lose the fight due to footwork by the sith. Pre-barge stagger, the sith basically had to throw to lose the engagement. Even if it's sided to the wook, it's at least an improvement over the previous nigh-guarantee in favor to the sith.

Additionally, being left with additional hp is always significant as that is the difference in you dying to just a blob vs any other number of things. Snipers and Sith are not intended as hard-counters to wook. Hell, most of the time I see wook get shit on by t-21 ETs. Pretty much anyone with a gun can wreck them with proper positioning, and a sith absolutely stands a fair chance in the current patch with the barge nerf. Even pre-nerf, they stood a fair chance, although it absolutely was more favorable to the wook.

 

[Shadow-]

Tbh cant we just have it where rage fills on damage taken? like lets say from a 0 to 400 you can use rage when ever, even if its not full. This can be a nerf and buff at the same time. The buff would be a longer Rage/ quick burst rages that can last 2 seconds or something, the nerf would be, you have to take damage to gain the rage and after raging you'll be suck being slower than before if it was a long rage, short bursts slow you down for like a few moments then you go back to your normal speed.

 

[SrsSpy]

Well that's the thing bud. This is a team game, not a solo one. If we start balancing around 1v1s too much, we're in for a world of hurt.

I know that this is a team game. I know that you are supposed to play with your team. That doesn't change the fact that wook/sith interaction is not fun and could be better, which is the reason why this thread was made. No one (with some exceptions) wants to nerf wooks to oblivion, just to find a way that would feel more fair for both sides.

You even confirmed what I said about the Sith's combo getting messed up. He could absolutely have corrected that swing, as W swinging against a wook is asking for a quick return to the spectator screen. That's not even unreasonable to do.

I feel like you didn't read the whole thing

We've had an issue in the MB2 community going back years of extreme solutions being applied to problems rather than nuanced ones. It results in dead classes who are neglected in horrific fashion.

I agree, but melee wook was a popular build even before stagger so I'm not really worried about that. And as I said, we are just brainstorming to find the best solution, not to make them unplayable.

 

[qwerty]

There is a counterplay. It's not just Sith in the game, and Sith can still crouch to knock out a significant amount of the trouble they face and return swings in time. To make not-crouching preferable would require the barge to launch the sith a very hefty distance, which is far from guaranteed. You even confirmed what I said about the Sith's combo getting messed up. He could absolutely have corrected that swing, as W swinging against a wook is asking for a quick return to the spectator screen. That's not even unreasonable to do.

If this is an issue with enraged wooks, then I refer back to the point that it's a mechanic that only comes into play after a wook gets a kill, and they are not unstoppable freight trains. The easiest solution is just proper positioning to prevent rage altogether. I've seen more than a handful of enraged wooks get executed.

If this is an issue of wooks in general, then it's rather silly seeing as how that 400 hp disappears in a blink since they have no damage reduction of any kind and headshot multipliers are absolutely crazy right now. Caster wooks are currently glass cannons due to this.

While I'm okay with pushing for a better solution, I'm particularly concerned with some extremely poor takes in this thread. We've had an issue in the MB2 community going back years of extreme solutions being applied to problems rather than nuanced ones. It results in dead classes who are neglected in horrific fashion.

Well that's the thing bud. This is a team game, not a solo one. If we start balancing around 1v1s too much, we're in for a world of hurt.

youre a stupid noob bitch no offense

 

[[SE] Maren]

Both sides have a point, but if you guys had listened to me these classes would be agile enough to fight each other instead of silly inbalances like these where a wookie can just run at people and hold left click

 

[Deleted member 8187]

like these where a wookie can just run at people and hold left click

So does deka, w+m1 very skillful class and he tanks even more than wook.
I agree with Kodar, maybe people should pick at least once melee or caster wook then come back here with some knowledge about this (not talking about everybody here). Of course they should give up IMP stack to do that, dunno if this is possible for them.

 

[Liniyka_xddd]

Of course they should give up IMP stack to do that, dunno if this is possible for them

Honestly at this point I agree with this. I'm fine with reb classes causing imps to SUFFER, because 99% of MB2 gameplay is either stacking imps and stomping rebs, or actually joining rebs and trying to carry/organize the team, which takes such a tremendous amount of effort, that you'd go mad if you do it every time you play.

 

[YamThePrussian]

Honestly at this point I agree with this. I'm fine with reb classes causing imps to SUFFER, because 99% of MB2 gameplay is either stacking imps and stomping rebs, or actually joining rebs and trying to carry/organize the team, which takes such a tremendous amount of effort, that you'd go mad if you do it every time you play.

Lmao take a look at this NEWBIE having NEWBIE opinions which a VETERAN like me can only smugly grin at. I did not even bother to read what he posted because he is NEW and I am a VETERAN. I remember playing b8 (build 8 for the ignorant, dumb, retarded newbie subhumans) back in 1988. We had not yet invented electricity and still I was the coolest guy at school along with a so called "Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart" because him and I owned the only XBOXes in the northern hemisphere of Sweden. We used to play all day after school and our mothers could not get us to stop playing the so called Dark Souls which is a cool game because it has difficult, intense gameplay and it requires a very high IQ to play. Anyway what was I talking about? Right. I'm a VETERAN. MY GOD IT FEELS GOOD TO BE A VETERAN.

 

[Kodar]

youre a stupid noob bitch no offense

I don't even know who you are. lma0