Stomping Down Lightning

[k4far]

Hey,

I am mainly playing Lightning on my Sith but never below level [3] and never without Push [3].

As you can guess I am not using it from single hand in a strategy to run at gunners then just get them stunned for a moment and swing. I prefer to catch them running and then take my time cutting them up for all that poison, bullets in the back and all that dashing away^

I find single hand Lighting to be easy fragging nuisance that takes nothing to use but as I see how tough glowsticks have it in beta I am not going to try anything drastic here. So let me explain why I find single hand Lighting [1], [2], [3] in need of a change... The usual strategy for first two is to run at gunner get as close as possible to be in swing range and if you still have fp to use the lighting but wait isn't this super easy to do on a par with alt-frag that doesn't require to aim (not beta one)? Yes, precisely. Everything should have a requirement and reward to use and with Lighting, it's mainly about being rewarded because people don't toy with lower levels they want to stun those gunners enough to make it impossible to defend themselves and make use of that gap in which gunner is defenseless. This gives Sith a role of pushers that can rush gunners head-on while regenerating on the run and taking short breaks for cover.

Seen @Sir Crusher asking how would short charging for Lighting change things... I believe Sith would be more careful and it would keep them from rushing without thought put behind their actions. I am actually convinced it's a good thing. I am thinking of a short stun following visible animation so gunners can counter one hand Lighting before it's fired by taking cover, distancing themselves or killing Sith in very moment Lighting would be charging. I am against the same for both hands Lighting since you are making yourself more vulnerable.

I have slower PB regen and penalty on jumping in my specific build so I guess it's enough of a risk to take already. If this ever happened to both hands Lighting I would just move to using Super Push on my Sith which is reliable but much harder to use.

 

[MuscBodypillow]

Is this a diary or a personal note?

 

[k4far]

It's my invitation to discussion.

Lighting has long delay after using it before you can use next force power and vulnerability window in which you can be damaged or killed.

Poison is getting changed in BETA - that might remain in upcoming build, alt-frag is getting changed and that also might follow.
I think it's only fair to also do something to Sith to make them a little more skillful to use too.

 

[Liniyka_xddd]

Remove either stun or damage from it. I've been playing soldier lately and I noticed that it's literally impossible to win against a good sith with lighting in this build.

Now, I understand - soldier is the weakest class and saberists are supposed to have a big advantage over it. HOWEVER, lightning turns this advantage into complete and total domination. You CANNOT fight back.

I also understand that some classes like wook and arc counter it quite easily with right builds. But please, make it so other gunner classes have at least some counterplay to it as well.

 

[Stassin]

I've always thought grip should only be for stunning and lightning only for dmg. Would advocate for lightning dealing more, even alot more dmg than now, and even maybe displacing targets, but not stunning at all.

 

[k4far]

Remove either stun or damage from it. I've been playing soldier lately and I noticed that it's literally impossible to win against a good sith with lighting in this build.

Now, I understand - soldier is the weakest class and saberists are supposed to have a big advantage over it. HOWEVER, lightning turns this advantage into complete and total domination. You CANNOT fight back.

I also understand that some classes like wook and arc counter it quite easily with right builds. But please, make it so other gunner classes have at least some counterplay to it as well.

You are doing well face throwing nades and not even alt-frag ones, you do have a counter play.

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

Remove either stun or damage from it. I've been playing soldier lately and I noticed that it's literally impossible to win against a good sith with lighting in this build.

Now, I understand - soldier is the weakest class and saberists are supposed to have a big advantage over it. HOWEVER, lightning turns this advantage into complete and total domination. You CANNOT fight back.

I also understand that some classes like wook and arc counter it quite easily with right builds. But please, make it so other gunner classes have at least some counterplay to it as well.

Worth noting that Hero also has fast movement speed and Dash to mitigate it.

This effectively leaves only Clone, Soldier and Elitetrooper super vulnerable. These classes have multiple lives and should partly play into the "cannon fodder" fantasy as long as a good player can perform actions to mitigate effects enough to survive against the less capable Sith.

If a nerf is needed, I'd either increase the risk of lightning through one or two solutions like these:

• making activating lightning cost more FP to increase risk of backfiring upon failure
  
• simply reduce the stun time by a split second to increase the retaliation timing window for good players
• increase "hand extend" period after lightning, so slashing will be possible slightly later than it is now to reduce the timing window

I think it's critical in all balance discussion to not generalize. Pinpoint the match-up you feel is unfavoured. From my own experience I am most likely to die to lightning as a multi-lifer. This is fine. I am supposed to die if I play like trash there.

 

[Liniyka_xddd]

From my own experience I am most likely to die to lightning as a multi-lifer. This is fine. I am supposed to die if I play like trash there.

I don't mind dying as a sold if I know I did some damage. However, encounter with a lightning sith ensures that your current life will simply be wasted as you cannot do anything to him.

You cannot drain him at range since current build has ridiculously low FP drains and once he gets into lightning range, you are finished. There is no counterplay at all, and that is very infuriating. There's nothing worse than dying and knowing that there is nothing you could have done.

 

[k4far]

I don't mind dying as a sold if I know I did some damage. However, encounter with a lightning sith ensures that your current life will simply be wasted as you cannot do anything to him.

You cannot drain him at range since current build has ridiculously low FP drains and once he gets into lightning range, you are finished. There is no counterplay at all, and that is very infuriating. There's nothing worse than dying and knowing that there is nothing you could have done.

Take BETA drains in to consideration. Deplating FP is much faster, takes 1 body hit and 1 head shot to kill 100 HP unit.

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

I don't mind dying as a sold if I know I did some damage. However, encounter with a lightning sith ensures that your current life will simply be wasted as you cannot do anything to him.

You cannot drain him at range since current build has ridiculously low FP drains and once he gets into lightning range, you are finished. There is no counterplay at all, and that is very infuriating. There's nothing worse than dying and knowing that there is nothing you could have done.

Take BETA drains in to consideration. Deplating FP is much faster, takes 1 body hit and 1 head shot to kill 100 HP unit.

This. Draining from a distance will be more relevant.

Soldier/ET have the potential to perform some jukes to cause the first slash to miss. I've been thinking of making a tutorial video on my approach as it feels like it gives me a decent success rate. Your follow-up for this miss is the window to deal damage and punish.

This is kind of why a small nerf would be more than enough. Nerfing the ability into worthlessness like Grip 1-2 is a bad idea. Grip 1-2 are awful now and need to either be buffed back to the old level or re-designed into a more engaging mechanic.

Lightning to me feels like it fits the fantasy correctly. Balance issues ought to be easy to adjust with our existing modifiers.

 

[Gumba]

Worth noting that Hero also has fast movement speed and Dash to mitigate it.

cmon Ben, you should know that you can't dash while getting lightning'd. Also the movement speed helps in a 1v1 but its still a gamble if you run/walk you get either pushed/lightning, so if you gamble wrong, you're dead.

Not to mention that every 1v2 against lightning is just a deathsentence

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

cmon Ben, you should know that you can't dash while getting lightning'd. Also the movement speed helps in a 1v1 but its still a gamble if you run/walk you get either pushed/lightning, so if you gamble wrong, you're dead.

Run after Lightning activates. They can't push for 1s after lightning deactivation. This is your moment.

 

[Gumba]

Run after Lightning activates. They can't push for 1s after lightning deactivation. This is your moment.

Wow thanks, didn't know that.

 

[Tylenol]

If soldiers could still use their melee when being shocked then it could probably give soldier an advantage/edge to some degree. Any Sith that tries to fry you gets knocked on his ass by a drop kick.

 

[Liniyka_xddd]

I've been thinking about it for a little bit, and came up with an idea.

What if lightning remained the same, but only stunned after you fried you target continuously for about 1 second? It would still be very much viable as a support tool and perform the same functions, but also allow some counterplay and take more skill to use effectively.

 

[Tylenol]

I've been thinking about it for a little bit, and came up with an idea.

What if lightning remained the same, but only stunned after you fried you target continuously for about 1 second? It would still be very much viable as a support tool and perform the same functions, but also allow some counterplay and take more skill to use effectively.

Tbh that only allows a 1 second window to counter, which might be alright when the new FP drain changes come in but will still lead to shock'n'slash in 1v1s with Sith only with a 1 second delay

 

[k4far]

I've been thinking about it for a little bit, and came up with an idea.

What if lightning remained the same, but only stunned after you fried you target continuously for about 1 second? It would still be very much viable as a support tool and perform the same functions, but also allow some counterplay and take more skill to use effectively.

*Cough* burst weapons.

Getting zapped will not cancel volley. It's not unusual to see Sith getting burst to the face. You can not even defend yourself from single salvo in BETA, doesn't matter if you walk or run - it's shredding. If you apply this with proposed drains it will be broken.

 

[Lessen]

*Cough* burst weapons. Getting zapped will not cancel already started volley. It's already not unusual to see as Sith getting burst to the face as they try to zap ET.

I actually did this recently; it was actually a remarkably well (or luckily) timed shot given that the sith was corner-ambushing me and I knew he was there but didn't know when he'd pop out. He died and then wtf'd. That being said, while burst weapons DO have some use against lightning, if you do manage to get your shot going before they get their lightning off, it's rather situational and not a super hard counter. The lightning player has the option of waiting for you to fire a burst and THEN lightninging you while you're on cooldown, although situationally (and especially with the Beta drains) I suppose the first burst might put the sith below 50 FP and unable to lightning.

I suppose I just think your "*cough*" is unwarranted, because A280 is not THAT much of a counter to lightning. (A280 being the only burst weapon for Rebs.)

I've been thinking about it for a little bit, and came up with an idea.

What if lightning remained the same, but only stunned after you fried you target continuously for about 1 second? It would still be very much viable as a support tool and perform the same functions, but also allow some counterplay and take more skill to use effectively.

I sort of like this general mechanic, but I don't think it applies to lightning well. Electric current instantly seize you up, it's not a gradual thing at all. I'm not saying this needs to be a simulation or anything but this particular idea is too counter-intuitive for me. I would rather lightning require a charge-up before it can be fired (and the charge up animation itself would make you vulnerable to shots).

 

[k4far]

Your job as a gunner is not engage from up close but chip from a far. If he gets you from up close then you are careless or have no team. As Sith approach gunners (good ones, lol) they are at 30FP or less. One burst seals the deal in BETA. It's absolutey impossible to tank it. I have been playing against Seras.

 

[Lessen]

In both the open and beta versions, a good gunner is perfectly capable of scrapping up close against non-lightning (and perhaps non-speed, non-MT...) saberists, and also, quite obviously, many times it's impossible to avoid being ambushed at close range by a stealthy saberist. I mean, if your team is alive you can let them spring the trap, but...

Saberist in beta kinda gets fucked by a lot, but I suppose in the context of lightning you have a point... in fact, perhaps the Beta saberist balance is actually already pretty good if saberists use the faction-specific force powers.