Real talk, the future of MBII and ...

[Viserys]

@MaceMadunusus @SeV I'm sure you can argue the subject without insulting each other, this time I edited your posts, next time I'll give a lot of warnings points

 

[Penekowski]

I don't like RP myself, but I respect people that have fun roleplaying, and I totally agree with Sev.

MBII is about having fun, and most of the veteran developer folks are too stubborn to accept that the mod needs to reinvent itself, let's try new things out! if they don't work out then we tweak it according to community feedback. I do understand that someone with experience developing a mod knows more than the average player, but what are the cons of adding a non time limit mod to MBII? I just fail to see the point, people who enjoy playing Open mode will keep playing open mode, and adding a no time limit mode will only bring new players, people have been asking for it for years, and I mean no disrespect Mace, but your profile says that you're retired, yet every time that the RP topic comes up you always come back from retirement just to hate on it. Let the mod progress, I'm sure that we'll get plenty of new players, it adds more content, it will make people happy, it gives more freedom of choice. I see a bright future ahead for MBII if we drop that stubbornness and start taking community's feedback into consideration.

Don't get me wrong, I know that the leads and you have been here for a long time, that most of the times you know better. I'm quite new to the team, but I really dislike that mentality. Keep in mind that I'm not a coder and this is quite blurry for me, but I'm pretty sure (And correct me if I'm wrong @Tempest ) that tempest tried something time limit related and that it wasn't that hard to achieve, that he did it once just to mess around and it totally worked. I'm specifically referring just to duel mode, and I'm editing my comment to clarify that to fix any misunderstandings that my previous comment may have caused (Edited on 04/27/17)

There are no excuses in my opinion. Once you're done tweaking the saber system (which is something that you've focused way too much over the last 5 years or so) you should focus on giving more freedom to the player, just imagine how many players we'll get. Sure, not the kind of players that Mace and the leads may like, but the more players the mod gets the more Jedi academy will survive, let's open the doors to these folks that I really respect and have done nothing wrong but having fun in their own way.

All I see so far to be honest with you is a lot of excuses saying that it's not gonna work, that many developers do this and that, that WE DEVELOPERS KNOW BETTER, yet you never tried it in the long term. Let's hear the community for once, let's try things out, I'm sure that if you make a poll we'll get overwhelming results, but just because the leads and one or two retired veteran devs don't want it doesn't mean that we shouldn't add it.

Leave open mode as it is, don't touch it, it's the main gamemode that we all need and love, despite having shitty clans and cancerous players here and there, or dotf 24/7 we still enjoy it. Add a no time limit gamemode, set a filter for it so that the server browser doesn't get filled with empty RP servers or whatever. That's it, we won't split the community at all because open mode players will still play open mode, and RPers or players who want to mess around will go to that mode, if anything that will only make Open mode more competitive because serious players will always want to play open mode, and we won't have ppl messing around and timewasting with melee and having a coffee party at throne when they have the choice of doing that on non time limit servers, isn't that what you want after all? for MBII to be more competitive. I honestly see no cons.

Again, I mean no disrespect to Mace or to anyone who dislikes RP or that are against a non time limit mode. I'm just sharing my opinion and I want to let people know that not all of us devs are against such new gamemode. but unfortunately it's all up to the leads at this point.

 

[Viserys]

Don't get me wrong, I know that the leads and you have been here for a long time, that most of the times you know better. I'm quite new to the team, but I really dislike that mentality. I'm pretty sure (And correct me if I'm wrong @Tempest ) That removing time limit is something that it's not quite hard to achieve, that you did it once just to mess around and it totally worked.

Uh. No. On duel mode it's simpler due to just jedi/sith classes (not sure what Tempest has done on this end, but certainly nothing has been extensively proven to be working) but on open mode it most certainly is NOT an easy task. I'd appreciate it, since you're not a coder, if you didn't voice such strong opinions on behalf of the dev team.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

I'm pretty sure (And correct me if I'm wrong @Tempest ) That removing time limit is something that it's not quite hard to achieve, that you did it once just to mess around and it totally worked.

Viserys was the one that attempted to remove the timelimit so the team could do something internally. It was only something created temporarily and did have problems. If anyone knows about removing timelimit in current mb2s form, its her and she said it isn't as easy as people make it out to be. Yes you could remove the timelimit hardcoding by commenting, but that doesn't fix other issues (Such as server time desync) with having different times on the server compared to client. Notice when you modify the time limit only on the server, the clients clock timer is no longer in sync and the round may end after it hits zero, or while the timer is still 30 seconds from ending. That would be something that needs fixed if you "free" the timelimit. Which doing so might require things engine side which is an entirely different ball game. So yes, while you could give people the power to set 6 minute timers on the server, the clients game timer will be at 0:00 for the last minute of the round.

Remember when people thought increasing the server framerate was an easy task? Well guess what, it isn't just as simple as sv_fps 40 and caused massive lag issues when sabers collided originally as well as many other issues.

Let's hear the community for once, let's try things out, I'm sure that if you make a poll we'll get overwhelming results, but just because the leads and one or two retired veteran devs don't want it doesn't mean that we shouldn't add it.

Like I said, this vote already happened and the community voted for removing timelimit. I was retired then as well and the team still hasn't done it.


Oh and on the RP note for people who think I hate RP? Guess what I was one of the people who worked on Jedi Knight Galaxies for a few years while working on MB2. I still support that mod and hope it gets much further along. I created levels around RP, stories around RP. etc for JKG. Kindly knock it off. Just because I don't want RP in MB2 because I don't think it fits, doesn't mean I hate RP.

These are all levels I made/started for an RP mod. MACE HATES RP CONFIRMED GUYS.

 

[Viserys]

Viserys was the one that attempted to remove the timelimit so the team could do something internally. It was only something created temporarily and did have problems. If anyone knows about removing timelimit in current mb2s form, its her and she said it isn't as easy as people make it out to be.

Mace I think it's worth clarifying what I did with the timelimit (was actually Jorge who did it first): I simply stopped the round ending when the counter hits zero. Nothing else. Yes that was a single line of code. Not viable, nowhere near the real thing, as there is no way for people to join the game, change class, etc.

 

[Noob]

there is no way for people to join the game, change class, etc.

This is also a big factor into why no time limit is a bad idea. On top of hard coding, they have to change how joining matches work.

 

[Katapultman]

Hi,

For the second time in a long while,I felt the need to throw my hat in the pile with the rest of the others.
I haven't played MB2 for 10 years,not even 5, but I've grown to love it.It's the only game I'd ever say I'm actually decent at( which is not all the way true),not only the Star Wars aesthetic and feel of the game,but also the gameplay,the ever-lasting fun I can milk from it,the people I've met,the entirety of the community is one of the best mix of casual players,hardcore ones,and even people in the middle(like me).That is why,I also think that limiting people is not the best-est of choices,considering our small,but diverse community.

That is not to say anything is to be removed,like the core features of MB2(for example duel mode),what make it special,not just for me,but for all of us.If we do not let the community decide it for itself what it wants,MB2 as it is,will grow ever-so smaller,and smaller,until *boop*, nothing more.I apologise if I may come off as some little uninformed turd,but I feel as though this would happen if we continue limiting players and their desires,and if anyone feels nice enough to tell me I'm wrong,please do so.

One thing I'd like to cement,is that SeV himself said that it's a revolution,but this revolution would take time,manpower and the willingness of the devs that has kept our mod alive for this long.As Viserys said "It's not just removing a line of code,it's spawnpoints,class configs etc... ". But yes,of course there is the everlasting problem of pumping out constantly gamemodes and the community becoming so divided so no one plays them.This could,of course be fixed by testing,etc etc

Then there's the timelimits ,which are not only hard to code,not only not appealing to everyone,but in general posing problems.And extended timelimit -->People can't join . A timelimit as it is now -->can't enjoy freedom.

Overall,this revolution could result in a double edged blade,either it succeeds and the community grows and prospers,or it becomes divided between itself too much to sustain any gamemode that attracts all.
This post is all over the place and even I myself find it confusing,so if someone wants to correct me,I'd be quite thankful

 

[SNAAAKE]

(quotes broke)

MACE:
"I give you evidence of Games with similar objectives (Team Based, Objective Based, Assault/Defend style) that restrict timelimit, and apparently I am wrong even though those people have been doing this for longer than you or I have been on this earth. They know what they're talking about and they have timelimits for a reason."

I understand leaving the timer alone in Open, but this doesn't mention why duel mode shouldn't have an adjustable countdown. It doesn't appear that anyone is really trying to win the match, or play against the other faction exclusively for team points, just have some good fights, and dick around with some light sabers. I play duel because I can't practice in open without letting down my team, and I (as well as others, after reading this thread) would just like to play longer than 5 minutes without having to sit through a countdown, interrupt a fight, or miss a round while customizing. And as someone that plays PC games in 2017, choice is what I built it for.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

I understand leaving the timer alone in Open, but this doesn't mention why duel mode shouldn't have an adjustable countdown. It doesn't appear that anyone is really trying to win the match, or play against the other faction exclusively for team points, just have some good fights, and dick around with some light sabers. I play duel because I can't practice in open without letting down my team, and I (as well as others, after reading this thread) would just like to play longer than 5 minutes without having to sit through a countdown, interrupt a fight, or miss a round while customizing. And as someone that plays PC games in 2017, choice is what I built it for.

I addressed that in another post where I said current variant of duel mode has no reason to have a timer on it. Tempest is apparently working on doing it for that specific mode.

In its current state, there really isn't a reason for a timelimit.

 

[Rajive]

guys, give me 3 more collaborating, enthusiastic, good coders, and I'll do wonders.

until then, I shall spend my time hugging players ingame.

I read all the thread and I got only one question...
Vis, does this mean you'll be our saviour and bring back hug ingame like in the old time ?

On a more serious note, what code do you use in mb 2? (Only a question I don't code at all, I'm just curious)

 

[Viserys]

I read all the thread and I got only one question...
Vis, does this mean you'll be our saviour and bring back hug ingame like in the old time ?

On a more serious note, what code do you use in mb 2? (Only a question I don't code at all, I'm just curious)

oh definitely. hug ftw.

MB2 is coded in C, but knowledge of C++/C#/Java/anything similar is more than fine to become a coder.

 

[DaloLorn]

Uh. No. On duel mode it's simpler due to just jedi/sith classes (not sure what Tempest has done on this end, but certainly nothing has been extensively proven to be working) but on open mode it most certainly is NOT an easy task. I'd appreciate it, since you're not a coder, if you didn't voice such strong opinions on behalf of the dev team.

Theoretically, between mid-round joining (duel, more importantly CTF) and timelimit editing (Tempest was doing that, too? I thought it was just the mid-round joining and infinite lives. ), it may eventually become possible to stitch together a functioning FFA/TFFA/RP mode simply by combining and tweaking parts of other gamemodes.

Assuming, of course, that some lazy bum like me got off his ass and started doing stuff.

 

[Viserys]

Theoretically, between mid-round joining (duel, more importantly CTF) and timelimit editing (Tempest was doing that, too? I thought it was just the mid-round joining and infinite lives. ), it may eventually become possible to stitch together a functioning FFA/TFFA/RP mode simply by combining and tweaking parts of other gamemodes.

Assuming, of course, that some lazy bum like me got off his ass and started doing stuff.

There's no functioning mid-round joining for open mode. And yes afaik Tempest didn't do anything timelimit related.

But anyway, I've explained why timelimit removal is no simple thing, and there's always the question of whether we want to do it in the first place.
From my point of view, if everything else we want to do was being done and we still had more resource, we could have (one more) discussion on this. But I think it's pointless to keep talking about removing timelimit in the current state of development.

 

[DaloLorn]

EDIT: Never mind.

 

[DCM]

For what its worth, duel mode was originally planned to have no time limit after the introduction of 6 lives, as yeah it doesnt make much sense. The mid-round joining and team changing caused some issues, as code with mb2 is never simple, and so it was left with the timer on. That was when I last worked on it, and i'm not sure if anything has been changed

 

[Jorge]

(was actually Jorge who did it first)

I feel this is the first time I get credit for something when I've fixed/changed so much code in this game (and created a few game breaking bugs as well...never forget teleporting dekas)

FeelsGoodMan

Now yes I have worked on timeilimit and mid round joining code, and so have others after me. But something to clarify here since some people are trying to give the hints of game modes or certain changes to the game. Not everything we do is for release whether we like it or not. We just experiment and move on. Also unless a Project Lead says something expect the team member's opinions to be their own and not representative of the team or what other people are working on.

Lastly, MBII team added a 5 minute lock to defer RP. We do not like it, we do not condone it, and afaik that will not change no matter how many of you ask. We've been here before dozens of times over the last 12 years or so. Just like with any game, community feedback is nice but ultimately the leadership knows best to deliver a game the majority like but maintains the image of our Lord and Savior RenegadeOfPhunk.

 

[swagmaster]

Lord and Savior RenegadeOfPhunk.

Nothin be more true than this

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

I don't believe that unlimited time will accomplish what you're thinking of Sev. Firstly, the community would bash the hell out of RPers, and secondly, the way the game is balanced you *can't* RP. Plus time wasting would be nonsense.

I do agree that it should be less teambased though, however I think the competitive aspect could remain.

I like gamemodes with no respawns, I really do, but the problems will always stem from how MB2 is balanced. I used to RP Dooku for memes in 1.3 with Cyan, was fun, and my inner nerd would always make me want to use Maul on DotF. However I stopped in 1.4, when I could no longer use my patiently developed skills to win games. I was suddenly forced to play different ways, based upon how devs felt 'team play' should be.

I agree, it is a shame, and it is killing MB2, but there are better ways of dealing with it.


People would be more patient with RP duels, if they took less time. People would be more likely to stay if they could succeed in playing as they would want to if they worked at it, rather than be tethered to a team.

Can't say I know many RPers, 'cept maybe Kael, and I knew that it gave him infinite joy to come up with new playstyles for all the sabers, even if they weren't as effective as what he already had. But with every saber patch, we kept getting slammed into a box. I suppose the best method would be to balance MB2 more for individuality, than forced cooperation, and balance it with the movies/lore in mind.

 

[Tempest]

So...those who are more attentive/"invested" in current MB2 dev stuff have probably noticed I've been away for several weeks. Got this lovely thread to come back to! Please forgive any weird structuring as I'm both sleep deprived and on mobile.

There's been valid points on both sides of multiple contentious topics (RPing/timelimit things being the primary one) throughout MB2's lifetime. I'm not going to reiterate the stuff that's been said about manpower vs actual availability with the devs and all the things like that. Here's my 2cents for this thread, though:
- First and foremost, anyone who thinks that devs don't care/take community feedback into consideration is sorely mistaken. Given, some devs take more from the community than others, there's not a single one who outright ignores any/all thoughts that aren't their own.
- While there has been a lot of focus on the sabering system in regards trying to balance/tweak it, I've been trying to make a very strong point of getting it to a state where we will not need nor want to change it due to how it feels, balance being good, and it being fun for all parties involved. The trend of someone thinking that some mechanic(s) need to be altered just because is done and gone.
- What people want is never going to be a solid/clean part of development. There's always going to be disagreement, whether it's about the entire prospect of some particular proposal or various details of one. I'm curious about who the devs "should" be asking about changes, though.
- In regards to this whole restricting vs allowing more freedom for how MB2 is designed/played..I think that forcing players into specific things should be avoided when necessary. However, time limits are in for a reason (both in terms of gameplay design itself as mainly pointed out by @MaceMadunusus as well as all of the nuances/possible issues of "unlimited" values can cause code-wise). Consistency is important. Do you want to have to worry about/deal with all the possible adjustments, whether major or minor, that could be done on a server-by-server basis? There's already difficulty with reading the library (yes it has formatting issues but still) or the rules displayed when joining a server. How can it be expected to properly/efficiently convey what's changed? Do we force that information to be displayed or further rely on server owners to inform the players about it (when that's already troublesome as it is)? So on and so on.
- It is true that I have been experimenting with time limit things for Duel mode. However, I've also discussed with a few people and decided that extending the time is the best option (for code, gameplay, and the players in general, especially with needing a break every once in a while).
- Taking a dev-specific idea from myself for a moment. I had the changelog of sabering changes moved from the dev-only part of the forums to the beta-accessible ones so that testers could be completely aware/up to speed about the state of things as I worked. What if we had a list of current projects/planned changes/WIP changelogs with sections for discussing what's present (and marked as not being in constant flux to avoid silly stuff)? The trend of transparency that I pushed for has been doing wonders already. How can we keep the improvement rolling smoothly?
- This goes along with the previous point but also warrants its own. What would be the best way of discussing things/getting feedback? Discord chats? Feature-specific threads? In-game chat sessions? Twitter updates about breaking/fixing things?
- I'm not necessarily a gameplay lead but I should totally get a cool title like "Duel mode overseer" or something amirite?

Hopefully I conveyed my thoughts properly for being limited to mobile. Also, in regards to my absence..I got kind of burned out working on sabering. MB2 also has been waning in regards to how fun it is/positivity for the time I put in (basically got to the point where I literally didn't know why I was playing because I was just frustrated/unhappy every time I had to deal with the game in whatever form). I want to apologize to those that I've been mentioning progress for the next patch to ("how long does it take to finish 0.0001% of stuff tempest?!") as well as the community in general. The lovely catch 22 of not enjoying the current state of things killing motivation to release the (start of) fixes toward the current state of things...

 

[SeV]

So...those who are more attentive/"invested" in current MB2 dev stuff have probably noticed I've been away for several weeks. Got this lovely thread to come back to! Please forgive any weird structuring as I'm both sleep deprived and on mobile.

There's been valid points on both sides of multiple contentious topics (RPing/timelimit things being the primary one) throughout MB2's lifetime. I'm not going to reiterate the stuff that's been said about manpower vs actual availability with the devs and all the things like that. Here's my 2cents for this thread, though:
- First and foremost, anyone who thinks that devs don't care/take community feedback into consideration is sorely mistaken. Given, some devs take more from the community than others, there's not a single one who outright ignores any/all thoughts that aren't their own.
- While there has been a lot of focus on the sabering system in regards trying to balance/tweak it, I've been trying to make a very strong point of getting it to a state where we will not need nor want to change it due to how it feels, balance being good, and it being fun for all parties involved. The trend of someone thinking that some mechanic(s) need to be altered just because is done and gone.
- What people want is never going to be a solid/clean part of development. There's always going to be disagreement, whether it's about the entire prospect of some particular proposal or various details of one. I'm curious about who the devs "should" be asking about changes, though.
- In regards to this whole restricting vs allowing more freedom for how MB2 is designed/played..I think that forcing players into specific things should be avoided when necessary. However, time limits are in for a reason (both in terms of gameplay design itself as mainly pointed out by @MaceMadunusus as well as all of the nuances/possible issues of "unlimited" values can cause code-wise). Consistency is important. Do you want to have to worry about/deal with all the possible adjustments, whether major or minor, that could be done on a server-by-server basis? There's already difficulty with reading the library (yes it has formatting issues but still) or the rules displayed when joining a server. How can it be expected to properly/efficiently convey what's changed? Do we force that information to be displayed or further rely on server owners to inform the players about it (when that's already troublesome as it is)? So on and so on.
- It is true that I have been experimenting with time limit things for Duel mode. However, I've also discussed with a few people and decided that extending the time is the best option (for code, gameplay, and the players in general, especially with needing a break every once in a while).
- Taking a dev-specific idea from myself for a moment. I had the changelog of sabering changes moved from the dev-only part of the forums to the beta-accessible ones so that testers could be completely aware/up to speed about the state of things as I worked. What if we had a list of current projects/planned changes/WIP changelogs with sections for discussing what's present (and marked as not being in constant flux to avoid silly stuff)? The trend of transparency that I pushed for has been doing wonders already. How can we keep the improvement rolling smoothly?
- This goes along with the previous point but also warrants its own. What would be the best way of discussing things/getting feedback? Discord chats? Feature-specific threads? In-game chat sessions? Twitter updates about breaking/fixing things?
- I'm not necessarily a gameplay lead but I should totally get a cool title like "Duel mode overseer" or something amirite?

Hopefully I conveyed my thoughts properly for being limited to mobile. Also, in regards to my absence..I got kind of burned out working on sabering. MB2 also has been waning in regards to how fun it is/positivity for the time I put in (basically got to the point where I literally didn't know why I was playing because I was just frustrated/unhappy every time I had to deal with the game in whatever form). I want to apologize to those that I've been mentioning progress for the next patch to ("how long does it take to finish 0.0001% of stuff tempest?!") as well as the community in general. The lovely catch 22 of not enjoying the current state of things killing motivation to release the (start of) fixes toward the current state of things...

I just think that having the no time limit available as a custom option, along with other time settings such as 10 minutes or 6 or 7, is positive. CSGO which is often cited in this debate due to its competitive format, has adjustable round timers and bomb timers. You can set the round timer to 3 minutes in a public 30 man server and bomb timer to 45 seconds, if that is what you want. You can set the round timer to 1 minute in 1v1 aim servers if that is what you want. There is nothing negative about having this customization ability available.

Also I'm extremely happy to see jorge admitting that the 5 min thing was added to deter RP'ers. Mace has been extremely disingenuous on this topic for years, making up excuses and not actually admitting that this was the main reason (which I know it to be). So thanks jorge for actually being honest and not acting like a dodgy politician.

I think it was a very bad decision to try and deter RP'ers from MBII. At the time, I knew of atleast 30 roleplayers playing MBII. Sometimes there would be 15 or more online at any time. According to jackluls server list as of writing this There are 46 servers with 106 players total online.

Basically, what you've done by deterring RP'ers is alienate 10-15 percent of the active playerbase. At the time, the RPers were probably about 5-10 percent, but that is still alot of people you've tried to push away. Most RP'ers at the time, who were friends of mine, played more open mode and dueling than they RP'd. Roleplaying was just a fun weekend thing to push and play around with, on cool funky FA servers with custom characters. You took all that fun and potential away from them and said fuck you, MBII doesn't want filthy roleplayers in our community. What a dumb move that was! Especially when you consider the aforementioned percentages that I listed. While rough, they indicate that you people who limited the time to 5 min, are partly responsible for the decline in MBII player numbers due to forcing them away from an already tiny community. So stupid! So short-sighted. And all this because of a prejudice against roleplayers. But may I remind you that most ppl who play MBII are actually fans of star wars and like jedis and siths and dueling and the Star wars universe in general? Roleplayers are just like that, and they want to live the fantasy. There is no reason to hate on them and kill off 15 percent of your currently active user base to satisfy your prejudice against them. It is revolting to me and part of my beef with the devs at the time and whoever supports strict hard-coded time limits.

So, its hard to implement right now, fine. The RP'ers probably won't come back anyway cuz you've basically said f**k off to them for over 7 years now. Atleast give dueling mode the ability to adjust the timers with 60 min being max. That way duel owners can choose their server timers and not have to restart their duels every 5 minutes, which is just dumb! The devs of Jedi academy, a game that came out in 2003, knew that free join unlimited time and duel challenges for servers was the way to go for casual servers where people roamed the map and dueled in cool locations. The old jedi academy also has the competitive duel mode servers where its 1v1 and when u die u get switched out and ppl just sit in spec and take turns. That is less fun and less viable for current MBII than having a free join, open duel mode with challenges and 60 minutes on the clock. Or 30 minutes and a map rotation, so u don't play dotf all the time. There are some cool dueling maps out there, after all....