R20+ Feedback

[Bully]

I played a bunch of MBII again recently so here's as much of my two cents whether you want them or not.

Gunner v Saber is pretty unsatisfactory. Saberists are rewarded for just powering through a good gunners aim by running and swinging at their opponent like a monkey. The only time knockback matters is if the saberist is swingblocking the blaster fire from my experience. God forbid you are playing legends where some saberists get armor, healing, passive health regen or knockback resistance, but I guess that's why almost every single legends gunner gets a saber-like weapon. It really feels like the buffs to gunners and nerfs to saberists have been misplaced in my eyes.

Force Attunement has been haunting me ever since the first time I laid my eyes unpon it. I'm still trying to figure out what it meaningfully adds to the game compared to the more free point allocation of before. It feels like it complicates what should be a rather straightforward point buy system for no meaningful gain. I think it would be more interesting to tie force focus, force pool and maybe force regen (in or out of meditation) to it and remove the force attune requirements from other skills.

Force Power changes I do actually like so far. Bringing push and pull more in line and giving push an aiming requirement saving a few points feels meaningful and rewarding. I must say however, the changes were a bit hard to figure out in-game as I pretty much had to dig through the patch notes to find out what they do now. I'll give the same praise to force speed and saber throw with some extra, they both feel good to use and look good while using them, is it possible to add some cool mist VFX to push and pull? The only exception here is force lightning, I tried some push 3 + lightning 3 gameplay and it just felt either bugged or I'm not understanding it yet fully, so I'll withold judgement for now.

Dueling seems fun and dynamic so far though I'm not really a 24/7 dueling guy so my feedback is limited. Only thing I'll say here is that I love that it's being actively worked on, and the only thing that has me scratching my head at times is how chaotic some saber exchanges can be with proper yawing and swing speed buffs from counters. Perhaps bringing the styles swing speed closer together could do some good for this? Or maybe just normalizing swing speed across styles? (light, medium, heavy)

Now one more big thing...
Open is getting too serious, I'm sure this patch would play great in balanced 5v5 or 10v10 more competitive matches, but with the addition of getups for all gunners you have (intentionally or not) effectively removed one of the more fun mechanics in open that is melee fights. I'm fully aware that this might just be an unintentional side effect like the removal of nade jumping (without annoying scripts) when secondary nade got changed many years ago, which is a change I still support, but these changes shouldn't need to come at the cost of beloved mechanics. So I would say, figure out a way to bring back nade jumping and melee fights but keep the balance changes you intended here, I truely believe it's possible and I would gladly help brainstorm a way to get it done.

 

[hera]

lol 2C’s comment was relatively reasonable and the response is “ur wrong cause tempest bad”. That is now the one thing righteously steering MB2s development? Trauma, personal grievances? “R20 WAS BAD SO IM CORRECT”. Ignore feedback if you don’t like the person, react laughing emoji, approach every situation with the belief that you are justified in what you do (because somebody at some point did something worse) and surely MB2 will get better !

I mean leonns your entire comment is just one giant fallacy. An old games population is always going to drop. So if every year, the population is lower than the year before, it’s super convenient for you to say “this years population drop is because NA was in charge!” You may be from EU but you sure have mastered NA political rhetoric. I mean you sound exactly like an American politician. You just sweep away all thought with a statement like that, and hope everyone is too stupid to notice that it makes no sense because the population drops every year. By your logic, wasn't the hay-day of MB2 in 2020 due to the NA guys being in charge? I mean you it said yourself, 7 years!!!!!!

I don’t even agree with 2C on the fact that there needs to be a dev from both regions but I think it was a reasonable request, and there were other things in his comment you chose to ignore so that you could pounce on something that sells a message, just like how you pounced on the three words I wrote about slap and responded with, “slap wasn’t nerfed!!”, derailing the conversation, and just like how you will probably find a single thing about this comment to nitpick, like the fact that I don’t know to spell leonss.

 

[2cwldys]

I will say with extreme confidence, that making anything for this game means you must be capable of navigating the strange stupid politics behind this game, or be a yes man. I refuse to do either and they ragebait me instead. What else can we do in the face of such ignorance?

 

[Leons]

lol 2C’s comment was relatively reasonable and the response is “ur wrong cause tempest bad”. That is now the one thing righteously steering MB2s development? Trauma, personal grievances? “R20 WAS BAD SO IM CORRECT”. Ignore feedback if you don’t like the person, react laughing emoji, approach every situation with the belief that you are justified in what you do (because somebody at some point did something worse) and surely MB2 will get better !

I mean leonns your entire comment is just one giant fallacy. An old games population is always going to drop. So if every year, the population is lower than the year before, it’s super convenient for you to say “this years population drop is because NA was in charge!” You may be from EU but you sure have mastered NA political rhetoric. I mean you sound exactly like an American politician. You just sweep away all thought with a statement like that, and hope everyone is too stupid to notice that it makes no sense because the population drops every year. By your logic, wasn't the hay-day of MB2 in 2020 due to the NA guys being in charge? I mean you it said yourself, 7 years!!!!!!

I don’t even agree with 2C on the fact that there needs to be a dev from both regions but I think it was a reasonable request, and there were other things in his comment you chose to ignore so that you could pounce on something that sells a message, just like how you pounced on the three words I wrote about slap and responded with, “slap wasn’t nerfed!!”, derailing the conversation, and just like how you will probably find a single thing about this comment to nitpick, like the fact that I don’t know to spell leonss.

There was nothing else he mentioned in dueling matter than a second dev, what did I ignore? Why are you even trying to argue against me by claiming I ignore everything but respond to only what I like? I responded to practically every dueling related matter here. I responded to your slap wasn't nerfed because you were yapping for the last 10 messages about stuns and getups, that's absolutely nothing relating to me.


And yes, the R20 playerbase drop was one of the most significant drops in the last years, that is exactly what I'm referring to, so I'd like if you didn't try to shadow that fact by saying the playerbase drops every year, which it possibly even wouldn't if there was an actual new content being made for this game, which seems is the focus now luckily.

 

[Bud]

I mean if ppl want to have kata fights again in open mode why not make melee more meaningful and have kata grabs more reliable and faster?

I hope for this. Kata is slow, small hitbox, and deals armor dmg before hp. If any of these problems are addressed, we'll see less 2 minute long melee fights at the end of a round.

 

[2cwldys]

 

[hera]

It's more interesting to make decisions while chasing someone than just shooting up a turtle on its back. You've still put them in a bad spot and are tacking on damage but it's no longer a free kill in many cases. A new layer of depth in reads/reactions has emerged.

I get some people like hard punishes and play in a way where they limit as much of their target's options as possible. It's not for me. More interactivity more good

Still nerf push/pull though.

You’ve changed my mind

I responded to your slap wasn't nerfed because you were yapping for the last 10 messages about stuns and getups, that's absolutely nothing relating to me

Then don’t respond to it!! Slap was such an offhand comment that I made to illustrate a point.
Just seems like it buries the discussion if we’re gonna go on a big back and forth exchange about something that, you yourself have recognized, was not the focus of my messages at all.

which it possibly even wouldn't if there was an actual new content being made for this game, which seems is the focus now luckily.

Massive agree here. One patch with new stuff for open caused that mode to be fully popped for like a month, and legends is so popular because there are constant content updates, imo. Content has been on the rise and it’s good.

 

[Leons]

Then don’t respond to it!! Slap was such an offhand comment that I made to illustrate a point.
Just seems like it buries the discussion if we’re gonna go on a big back and forth exchange about something that, you yourself have recognized, was not the focus of my messages at all.

I simply respond to dueling matters that "affect" me, didn't try to turn around discussion or anything, unfortunate that it was that case.

 

[2cwldys]

My problem here is I think you're comfortable enjoying your position of unilateral control over the sabering system, I pray the high comes down sometime in the next few months. I'm grateful, we all can be grateful, but the ONE thing I learned from Supremacy development is you got to speak to players in a way where you study, and you relate to them. Passive aggressive comments, and piercing apart talking points to attack at different vectors, is the exact type of deflection majority of the MBII team uses, literally politically. Please don't be like them. Though this pales in comparison to Defiant and Mace.

 

[Leons]

My problem here is I think you're comfortable enjoying your position of unilateral control over the sabering system, I pray the high comes down sometime in the next few months. I'm grateful, we all can be grateful, but the ONE thing I learned from Supremacy development is you got to speak to players in a way where you study, and you relate to them. Passive aggressive comments, and piercing apart talking points to attack at different vectors, is the exact type of deflection majority of the MBII team uses, literally politically. Please don't be like them. Though this pales in comparison to Defiant.

well I think the thing some of you guys don't really realize is the fact I'm also a duelist who plays, and has spent ~5k hours on dueling alone. I'm not some guy sitting in the back coding for the game and not touching it at all. So I consider it as my free speech kind of thing to react to some of these messages in a way my dueling self would react, that, however, doesn't mean it affects the sabering development. as I stated earlier, outside of the beta team, there's a public thread, I come to NA servers from time to time and also have some discussions on freaky dc, usually whenever patch releases. I'm far from "EU head". Even tried giving chance to CB, but well... They didn't want to have a civilized discussion so, yeah, that part of community I voluntarily ignore.

 

[2cwldys]

It's important to be selfless in position of powers over others, think of the Stanford Prison Experiment; but instead of guards and prisoners, it's devs and players.

In my particular case in regards to Supremacy development, an otherwise reasonable man is made to do unreasonable things; in the face of what all we are up against daily. If you're a player and are passionate about playing your favorite game, I have proven to the community that picking up the tools to give back to it results to nothing either. It's wasted time and effort, seemingly, but if players find enjoyment out of something worth their time, I suppose it's more valued. R20 is a lesson, but nothing to obsess over. It's created this negative development echo chamber where making mistakes, when made, are punished to the most extreme with absurd standards. It's okay to fall and get back up, the crab in the bucket mentality can stop and I believe there is a future for this game if the devs are fully open and agreeable to seeing that possible.

Arguing with people constantly instead of working on the game is the problem. The time I spent arguing with most of the MBII dev team was after times of self-isolation to get things done, playing with players, making positive environments and gameplay. At the end of the day there's many different viewpoints and many different takes to how MBII should be. With the players we have left it shouldn't be this difficult to find a reasonable medium, VS the days of AOD or simply more active days.

5k~ dueling hours, is quite a bit. I won't sweat on it, but I wish people can compare to the wasted brainpower in inventing things new and priceless, for a community that doesn't value a single amount of effort outside of their own. If working with the dueling system reaches you similar frustrations you'll understand, but you too are a cog in a machine. Allowed in the team in no short time at all, because you have the knowledge and ability, though is that ability being valued? This game has some insane politics that is capable of making everyone attack each-other, but no one is concerned with what's actually behind this happening. Listen guys, if we can't solve the game's problems after 20 years, it's likely they'll never be solved at all. Please find within yourselves after some introspective what the common denominator is.

 

[Goosto]

Leons fixes inane FA bugs that I report so he's a good dev in my book. I also find he has his ears to the ground and is willing to experiment with sabering, not an ivory tower dev at all. And to think he's only 12 years old.

 

[nomad.marshall]

Leons fixes inane FA bugs that I report so he's a good dev in my book. I also find he has his ears to the ground and is willing to experiment with sabering, not an ivory tower dev at all. And to think he's only 12 years old.

"i drink lean. i wear vlone. i smoke top shelf. i do it all. and im only fucking 12."
-leons

 

[Bully]

Man this went from a civil R20 feedback thread, to an open is dead thread, to a pseudo philosophical yap thread real fast huh.

 

[Bully]

Back on topic though, what happened to push and pull effects? They've been gone for a while now and I don't think any renderer or client shows them. Did they break at one point and nobody has noticed or cared enough to talk about it?

 

[MaceMadunusus]

Man this went from a civil R20 feedback thread, to an open is dead thread, to a pseudo philosophical yap thread real fast huh.

Seems to be how it goes. You gave some good constructive criticism, a model for everyone.

I would like to see more fun things added to open. I know some things people thought were fun were removed, but that doesn't mean we intend open to be anti-fun. Just some things we don't feel for example is fair to play against. There's some pretty fun things design wise we hope to get in open at some point and you're starting to see some of the early versions be used in legends, but that will eventually be used in open in some form once everything is ironed out and the classes for them are created. It is definitely not the intent to make open entirely serious.

I've said this before but I'll say it again. Attunement was released half finished, and it should be removed until it and the other force powers intended to work with it, like Tutaminis, Stasis, Battle Meditation, etc. are finished. Its supposed to be the force-whore vs non-force whore build that makes force whore an official configuration. And we need to find a bit better way of displaying that somehow in the UI once that is the case.

Also don't @ me about the armor stuff. I just restored old functionality so that armor wasn't just additional health like it was intended. It was a bug fix. I told the team if they thought the TTK was now too high (and probably is), that that protections granted to armor could be brought back down a bit. No ones done that to my knowledge. I have repeated this multiple times as well.

 

[Bully]

I know some things people thought were fun were removed, but that doesn't mean we intend open to be anti-fun.
[...]
Attunement was released half finished, and it should be removed until it and the other force powers intended to work with it, like Tutaminis, Stasis, Battle Meditation, etc. are finished

This is good to hear and as far as I've seen there's some good stuff in the pipeline so I'm excited to see what comes next. Also one of the reasons I decided to pop back in again.

Also don't @ me about the armor stuff. I just restored old functionality so that armor wasn't just additional health like it was intended. It was a bug fix. I told the team if they thought the TTK was now too high (and probably is), that that protections granted to armor could be brought back down a bit. No ones done that to my knowledge. I have repeated this multiple times as well.

From my experiences so far armor feels fine in open, it's just legends that can be a bit silly with armor regen and copious amounts of healing but I'm not super interested in giving legends feedback as it's more of a "we just want to mess around and test limits gamemode" to me anyway (which is completely valid)

 

[ThEra]

This is good to hear and as far as I've seen there's some good stuff in the pipeline so I'm excited to see what comes next. Also one of the reasons I decided to pop back in again.

From my experiences so far armor feels fine in open, it's just legends that can be a bit silly with armor regen and copious amounts of healing but I'm not super interested in giving legends feedback as it's more of a "we just want to mess around and test limits gamemode" to me anyway (which is completely valid)

Shameless self-plug but Colosseum will be hosting a V1.9.3 event (the mb2 version before the armor fix and beskar) this Sunday with open mode scheduled at 9 PM CET, if anyone wants to see what TTK was like before the armor fix. Im sure ppl will actually appreciate the current TTK once they can more accurately compare with how it used to be.