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[Bully]

I played a bunch of MBII again recently so here's as much of my two cents whether you want them or not.

Gunner v Saber is pretty unsatisfactory. Saberists are rewarded for just powering through a good gunners aim by running and swinging at their opponent like a monkey. The only time knockback matters is if the saberist is swingblocking the blaster fire from my experience. God forbid you are playing legends where some saberists get armor, healing, passive health regen or knockback resistance, but I guess that's why almost every single legends gunner gets a saber-like weapon. It really feels like the buffs to gunners and nerfs to saberists have been misplaced in my eyes.

Force Attunement has been haunting me ever since the first time I laid my eyes unpon it. I'm still trying to figure out what it meaningfully adds to the game compared to the more free point allocation of before. It feels like it complicates what should be a rather straightforward point buy system for no meaningful gain. I think it would be more interesting to tie force focus, force pool and maybe force regen (in or out of meditation) to it and remove the force attune requirements from other skills.

Force Power changes I do actually like so far. Bringing push and pull more in line and giving push an aiming requirement saving a few points feels meaningful and rewarding. I must say however, the changes were a bit hard to figure out in-game as I pretty much had to dig through the patch notes to find out what they do now. I'll give the same praise to force speed and saber throw with some extra, they both feel good to use and look good while using them, is it possible to add some cool mist VFX to push and pull? The only exception here is force lightning, I tried some push 3 + lightning 3 gameplay and it just felt either bugged or I'm not understanding it yet fully, so I'll withold judgement for now.

Dueling seems fun and dynamic so far though I'm not really a 24/7 dueling guy so my feedback is limited. Only thing I'll say here is that I love that it's being actively worked on, and the only thing that has me scratching my head at times is how chaotic some saber exchanges can be with proper yawing and swing speed buffs from counters. Perhaps bringing the styles swing speed closer together could do some good for this? Or maybe just normalizing swing speed across styles? (light, medium, heavy)

Now one more big thing...
Open is getting too serious, I'm sure this patch would play great in balanced 5v5 or 10v10 more competitive matches, but with the addition of getups for all gunners you have (intentionally or not) effectively removed one of the more fun mechanics in open that is melee fights. I'm fully aware that this might just be an unintentional side effect like the removal of nade jumping (without annoying scripts) when secondary nade got changed many years ago, which is a change I still support, but these changes shouldn't need to come at the cost of beloved mechanics. So I would say, figure out a way to bring back nade jumping and melee fights but keep the balance changes you intended here, I truely believe it's possible and I would gladly help brainstorm a way to get it done.

 

[Bully]

I mean if ppl want to have kata fights again in open mode why not make melee more meaningful and have kata grabs more reliable and faster?

This is is also a viable solution I would support, but figuring out a balanced implementation that isn't overpowered sounds like a lot of trouble

 

[hera]

i think that would be a good change, yes, to make melee more reliable.

I did some thinking about the right way to word this so it’s the last thing I’ll mention about the Get-ups.
This change is part of this pattern I’ve been noticing recently where changes are made that eliminate or reduce the consequences of both mistakes and outplays. The first instance of this I noticed was in duels, where knocked down players no longer take more BP damage. That change was not such a big deal as this one IMO, but similar. It meant that slapping someone is less of a reward than it used to be, and getting slapped is less punishing.

It’s important to say I do not think this type of change (less punishing) results in more fun AT ALL. An integral part of good game design is having the world/state of the match react to decisions you make, good or bad. In a punishing game, if you make a mistake (say a player knocks you down with a nicely timed melee moved), and it gets you killed, then you have a precise, tangible thing to focus on the next time you see them. “Don’t get knocked down by that melee moves this time.” This is what makes a game addicting. It’s why duel are so addicting. Fun ≠ always being in control and dying less. What’s the point of going for a flying kick now if your opponent just rolls out of it or get-up kicks directly into you, resulting in them actually having an advantage on YOU. Whats the point of pulling out a conc nade for a knockdown if you’d just do more damage by shooting? What’s the point of trying to outsmart someone with melee moves, or pulling out a hard-to-hit knockdown weapon in legends, if it doesn’t make your opponent any easier to kill? It doesn’t make them easier to shoot anymore… That’s the other thing: this also affects blasters, not just for-fun melee fighting. People will just live now. They can get up faster in some manner or roll away or roll into cover. No more A280 bursts on a downed target, no more guaranteed snipes, no more easy headshots.

Personally, I like playing characters that don’t have quick get ups. It’s part of why I play a lot of default soldier in legends. It feels that much more gangster to kill an opponent knowing that you were are on the brink of death that whole time— that one small slip up meant you would fall without a mechanic to save you from your own mistake. And, like I said, it feels good to have something to focus on if you DO make a mistake that gets you killed.

The choice to make the game “less punishing” just leads to everything averaging out more. Mistakes matter less. Good plays matter less. Taking this philosophy to its extreme, the winning player is no longer the one that made the most outplays and the least mistakes, but instead becomes the player whose character has the higher stats. There’s no point in pulling out a niche crowd control weapon, or something that stuns, or going for a cool melee move, because it would just be completely suboptimal compared to standing there and shooting.

There’s also the much smaller issue of “aesthetic”. I don’t want every class to be ninja mode, flying and rolling around, making an action movie out of their errors. Stormtroopers are idiots. Not every soldier needs to be so tactical.

 

[ThEra]

This is is also a viable solution I would support, but figuring out a balanced implementation that isn't overpowered sounds like a lot of trouble

Well you already have to switch from your gun and go into melee, then facehug a guy shooting at u who can also easily jump away from your reach or a saberist with a one-hit kill weapon (unless he uses blue or cyan).

Sweepkick+swap to gun would still be more reliable. I dont think making katas more reliable would be OP or negatively affect balance, but the style points would be over 9000! Also dwarf's youtube shorts clips would explode in popularity and mb2 would get a huge influx of new players.

I see no downsides in this!

 

[Bully]

Sweepkick+swap to gun would still be more reliable. I dont think making katas more reliable would be OP or negatively affect balance

Yeah but what happens if it's too reliable and suddenly the dueling meta is just getting a slap and then melee kataing somone It gets real tricky real fast

 

[hera]

Well you already have to switch from your gun and go into melee, then facehug a guy shooting at u who can also easily jump away from your reach or a saberist with a one-hit kill weapon (unless he uses blue or cyan).

Sweepkick+swap to gun would still be more reliable. I dont think making katas more reliable would be OP or negatively affect balance, but the style points would be over 9000! Also dwarf's youtube shorts clips would explode in popularity and mb2 would get a huge influx of new players.

I see no downsides in this!

I wish flying kick was better. There’s so much landing lag. Especially vs Jedi they get up before I can even shoot so its a net detriment.

 

[nomad.marshall]

something to consider - if you change getups then you have to nerf proj again

 

[hera]

yeah so tldr it changes a lot more than “oh I’m just dead” scenarios and changing this has had a lot of implications.

I like going for melee moves, flying kicks, sweeps, slaps. It’s fun. I think buffing get ups is just a nerf to people trying to do cool shit. And of course its also harder to shoot someone on the ground now.

 

[ThEra]

I wish flying kick was better. There’s so much landing lag. Especially vs Jedi they get up before I can even shoot so its a net detriment.

Same when u use it as saberist!

 

[hera]

Same when u use it as saberist!

Yeah so it would be cool if the saberist had a reason to go for it too. I would gladly take that change, because I also love using flying kick when dueling lol. Diverse gameplay is fun that’s the whole point I’m trying to make. It’s not about “buff me!” It’s about “buff variety, not boring gameplay”

 

[Pokrew]

Totally agree on Attunement. About duel and open mode changes, expecially the latter, my impression is that both gamemodes have underwent changes in the last couple of years that only catered to the "competitive" niche of the community for each gamemode. Duel changes for duelists and Open changes for scrimmers. It doesn't always result in the "funniest" or happiest changes for the game.

 

[nomad.marshall]

Totally agree on Attunement. About duel and open mode changes, expecially the latter, my impression is that both gamemodes have underwent changes in the last couple of years that only catered to the "competitive" niche of the community for each gamemode. Duel changes for duelists and Open changes for scrimmers. It doesn't always result in the "funniest" or happiest changes for the game.

for open yeah i can see that argument - devs want the game to be played a certain way, which somewhat overlaps with how an existing community plays it.

dueling wise we're in a post-tempest era. his build catered to him and a small select council of people who all had really bad ideas for dueling and the game in general. i dont enjoy the current ACM reliant system or how its seemingly being pushed more and more to PBing/facehug dueling being the only viable way to play, but i wouldnt say dueling is catering to a competitive niche. ive seen leons take feedback from all sides of the community, so at least that part of the game is heading to a place where the majority of players will enjoy it.

tho i do agree on the sentiment - been less fun/funny stuff and more numbers/balance tweaks over the years. i p much only play legends nowadays cause it actually has a lot of funny shit and despite how people say its VERY UNBALANCED, i find it to be funner, more equally competitive and funnier overall than open. its that way bc it isnt a house of cards where if you tweak one thing, like getups on one/two classes, it ripples through the entire mode in a bad way


to stay somewhat ontopic, the flying kicks, melee katas w/o weapon switch cancel, and most saber katas suck bc the animation extends way too long past its damage phase. i rarely if ever see people use the yellow/cyan jump DFA in open/legends because it just gets you killed lol, takes too long to finish. the end phase of most animation attacks like that needs to be shorter and the resource cost should be adjusted accordingly

 

[nomad.marshall]

Yeah but what happens if it's too reliable and suddenly the dueling meta is just getting a slap and then melee kataing somone It gets real tricky real fast

also this guy hasnt dueled effacer l0l
for years he'd make NA duelists shit their pants in rage because he would slap, turn around and do a backthrow melee kata, then purplestab and instant kill them. so fucking funny. more power to people like that, so long as theres some way to play around/against it

 

[Bully]

also this guy hasnt dueled effacer l0l
for years he'd make NA duelists shit their pants in rage because he would slap, turn around and do a backthrow melee kata, then purplestab and instant kill them. so fucking funny. more power to people like that, so long as theres some way to play around/against it

Definitely have fought people that used it like that but I doubt most dueling guys would enjoy having to do that as part of the dueling meta

 

[nomad.marshall]

Definitely have fought people that used it like that but I doubt most dueling guys would enjoy having to do that as part of the dueling meta

a wise man once said "its just that i understand better than you what you find fun"

<USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST>

 

[n00b]

Im gonna need a dev to shut this thread down.

 

[Pokrew]

also this guy hasnt dueled effacer l0l
for years he'd make NA duelists shit their pants in rage because he would slap, turn around and do a backthrow melee kata, then purplestab and instant kill them. so fucking funny. more power to people like that, so long as theres some way to play around/against it

Literally what I do but with yellow backwards kata

 

[Pokrew]

Im gonna need a dev to shut this thread down.

We need a dev to shut YOU down

 

[NotJoel]

he said "despite the getup change you still get stunlocked by nade spam" so i figured nades and rockets is precisely what he WASNT talking about.

No ThEra is right. I meant that DESPITE the getup changes you still get stunlocked by various shit, imagine if you didnt have getups you would just be completely supressed by various stun mechanics probably just 1 stun then shot to pieces while you cant even getup

 

[hera]

No ThEra is right. I meant that DESPITE the getup changes you still get stunlocked by various shit, imagine if you didnt have getups you would just be completely supressed by various stun mechanics probably just 1 stun then shot to pieces while you cant even getup

Whatever I guess. I just don't agree with it at all. I've never once gotten stun locked and thought 'omg this needs to change' its part of the game there are many ways to avoid it and pick classes that counter that stuff, and its been this way for a long time for a reason presumably.
If it were up to you guys, and this thought process, there would be no force powers, no nades (definitely no sonic or concs), no grip, no lightning, no stealth, no rockets that can one shot. Slap has already been nerfed for those same reasons you provided. I see this as a long slope towards the game being boring because nothing ever happens to anybody.

What does ideal gameplay look like to you?

 

[Leons]

Slap hasn't been nerfed at all...? And there are more ways to stagger using saber out melee move than before.