Perspective from a new player

[{Δ} Achilles]

So I spent a while playing the mod, I haven't played JKJA itself for quite some time, so I was highly interested in it. As a competitive Chivalry MW/DW player, for quite some time, I decided to try and apply what I've known.

(Yes, I know I'm new, however I believe my opinion does make a difference, as I do have significant experience in competitive melee-style games, and I can understand the design choices)

The blaster play, and movement is amazing, the force powers are also amazing (if weirdly imbalanced)... however the saber combat?

Feels absolutely terrible. It is difficult to even see what you're doing, or if you even have had a major effect. I used all of the styles, and it seems like Red is incredibly strong compared to the others. I'll break down the issues in as short as I can

Saber combat feels stale, and feels like a trading match where each player takes turns with a combo, and the one who did the most stamina break, wins. Occasionally winning by way of knockdown. Does not feel fluid or fun at all. Not to mention, I found that I can (using Chivalry footwork) make a Jedi/Sith opponent miss 10, 20, 30 times in a row, but there is literally no way to take advantage of making them swing like fools. If I dodge their attack, and attempt to punish, I am immediately met with them blocking, and if they are using red style, I lose BP. Which recovers incredibly slowly, I might add.

Against multiple opponents, it feels like I'm just trying to trick one into a quick kill, or praying that they kill each other.

For those who haven't played Mount and Blade, or Chivalry: Mount and Blade is incredibly direction based, and Chivalry is incredibly timing based (Unless you have a shield, which uses a similar stamina feature to what MBII was going for, methinks).

I honestly believe the block, should only occur when using the block button, and it should only work for a short time, and if you attack while holding block as the opponent's saber connects, you should be able to stagger them slightly. The BP system should be there to keep people from swinging like idiots, and you should lose BP as you miss attacks, similar to Chivalry. I believe that would work significantly better. Either that, or make attacking expose yourself significantly more, and for longer.

Balance it like a fighting game. If I block your saber, I get +4 frame advantage, and you either block, or you eat a 4 frame faster attack than yours. Blocking and Attacking should be two separate entities in a video game, not simultaneous, and then adding stamina ontop of that. It isn't realistic enough to merit such a system.

Another issue with Saber, is the deflection is flawed in a couple of ways, giving anyone with a blaster a supreme advantage over a single Jedi/Sith target. It takes an incredibly long time for a Jedi/Sith to recover from a failed push. I'd argue 2 competent Commandos are literally impossible to beat as a Sith/Jedi. Bottom line, blasters fire waaaaaay too quickly to be balanced, and this rapid fire lends them to be incredibly strong against melee-type units *EXCEPT* Wookies/SBDs, who appear blatantly overpowered anyway.

On a side note, why is Lightning so bad? If you force push lightning a gunner, and he happened to walk at just the right time, you simply die. You can't recover fast enough to zap him, and I have instances where I manage to land the lightning push, then use the FULL force bar, and still not kill the opponent... Really quite a terrible power.



inb4 git gud u suk u must be bad, as a typical community response.

 

[Noob]

This game has a similar learning curve. I completely disagree with you, and I think that spending more time in the game to fully learn it would change your opinion

 

[Phelps]

I honestly don't think you can, from that short of an experience, make those claims.
Saber system is, I think, the hardest one in the game to master and it takes months for some, years for others and decade for player like myself (and I did not master it at all).
Be sure to wait for a response from @SeV or @agentoo8, I think these the are amongst the most capable saberists in the game as of right now.

I'm sorry, if I offend somebody, but these two stands out for me.

One, or two things thing to add. It's not really valid to compare medieval fights to those in SW. You may argue fighting styles are inspired of human-known fighting styles, like Kendo, but lightsaber has weight only in its hilt. Only Force sensitive user can wield it effectively without harming himself in a long run. There is basically no mass in the plasma. As much as the fighting style is inspired by true fighting styles, the universe is different as well as those, who wield the lightsaber.
It's not really an argument for inside the game mechanics, just building up on the difference between medieval and SW duels on theoretical ground. Meaning, MBII aims somewhere else than M&B or Chivalry.

+

You cannot look at it as simply only duel game and from that make your assumptions or opinions. You have to take in the fact, that this game also contains gunner and the game needs to be balanced through all those classes, making some compromises on the way, so the duel might not look up to your standards.

 

[Puppytine]

I agree with TS in the part of deflect.
It's really underpowered. I've spend some time playing with Saber deflect 3 and each time I've tried to deflect shots (especially clone rifle) back to opposing team I got huge fp drain. Some shots did hit an enemy, but it wasn't worth it anyway since my fp was empty and I was either dead or forced to hide behind a corner.
It's rather much more safer and effective to simply block shots and not trying to send them back. I almost can't see anybody else who was deflecting fire.

It takes an incredibly long time for a Jedi/Sith to recover from a failed push.

Not a problem at all. Sith/jedi must be careful pushing people and get a proper timing and position. Push a pretty effective power and gunner need a counter for that. Vulnerability to shots during push is good enough counter.
Back to previous thing, jedi and sith need a counter against bullet spam Buffed deflect would be a perfect counter.

On a side note, why is Lightning so bad? If you force push lightning a gunner, and he happened to walk at just the right time, you simply die. You can't recover fast enough to zap him, and I have instances where I manage to land the lightning push, then use the FULL force bar, and still not kill the opponent... Really quite a terrible power.

No. Lightning maybe underpowered a little, just a little, but it's still useful and popular. Don't forget, gunners affected by lightning are helpless, they can't shoot. And lightning is hard to master, true.
Force that is currently is bad is grip. Rarely used by sith, and I think lack of popularity is caused by it's not effective enough.

 

[Phelps]

Force that is currently is bad is grip. Rarely used by sith, and I think lack of popularity is caused by it's not effective enough.

I use it a lot and I find it alright, what I kinda dislike though is, that you are so obvious of having a grip even before you lock it. Sound. But I guess in terms of balance it is needed and it's the only counter a gunner has, to run the hell away from the reach. I'd probably make it more powerful in form of HP drain, what's the current number? I think that the focus time is alright.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

I agree with TS in the part of deflect.
It's really underpowered. I've spend some time playing with Saber deflect 3 and each time I've tried to deflect shots (especially clone rifle) back to opposing team I got huge fp drain. Some shots did hit an enemy, but it wasn't worth it anyway since my fp was empty and I was either dead or forced to hide behind a corner.
It's rather much more safer and effective to simply block shots and not trying to send them back. I almost can't see anybody else who was deflecting fire.

How much fp does it drain, because from my experience with fighting deflect.
They manage to kill me almost every single time even with group fire or not.
And I just stop shooting because I would die in a few hits and forced to wait for them to spam force powers or get close to me.

 

[Preston]

Yeah I mean I dont want to offend anyone, but I dont really think you can have a solid opinion on something till atleast like what 3 months of playing? And even then I still think it takes more like a year to somewhat understand balance. It took me like 4 years to figure out wookie wasnt completely over powerd. Ik you wernt talking about a wookie or anything, im just giving an example. And yeah also sabering takes months to years to fully understand. And I do think you will change your opinion once you understand it more.

 

[NoSafeSpac]

So I spent a while playing the mod, I haven't played JKJA itself for quite some time, so I was highly interested in it. As a competitive Chivalry MW/DW player, for quite some time, I decided to try and apply what I've known.

(Yes, I know I'm new, however I believe my opinion does make a difference, as I do have significant experience in competitive melee-style games, and I can understand the design choices)

The blaster play, and movement is amazing, the force powers are also amazing (if weirdly imbalanced)... however the saber combat?

Feels absolutely terrible. It is difficult to even see what you're doing, or if you even have had a major effect. I used all of the styles, and it seems like Red is incredibly strong compared to the others. I'll break down the issues in as short as I can

Saber combat feels stale, and feels like a trading match where each player takes turns with a combo, and the one who did the most stamina break, wins. Occasionally winning by way of knockdown. Does not feel fluid or fun at all. Not to mention, I found that I can (using Chivalry footwork) make a Jedi/Sith opponent miss 10, 20, 30 times in a row, but there is literally no way to take advantage of making them swing like fools. If I dodge their attack, and attempt to punish, I am immediately met with them blocking, and if they are using red style, I lose BP. Which recovers incredibly slowly, I might add.

Against multiple opponents, it feels like I'm just trying to trick one into a quick kill, or praying that they kill each other.

For those who haven't played Mount and Blade, or Chivalry: Mount and Blade is incredibly direction based, and Chivalry is incredibly timing based (Unless you have a shield, which uses a similar stamina feature to what MBII was going for, methinks).

I honestly believe the block, should only occur when using the block button, and it should only work for a short time, and if you attack while holding block as the opponent's saber connects, you should be able to stagger them slightly. The BP system should be there to keep people from swinging like idiots, and you should lose BP as you miss attacks, similar to Chivalry. I believe that would work significantly better. Either that, or make attacking expose yourself significantly more, and for longer.

Balance it like a fighting game. If I block your saber, I get +4 frame advantage, and you either block, or you eat a 4 frame faster attack than yours. Blocking and Attacking should be two separate entities in a video game, not simultaneous, and then adding stamina ontop of that. It isn't realistic enough to merit such a system.

Another issue with Saber, is the deflection is flawed in a couple of ways, giving anyone with a blaster a supreme advantage over a single Jedi/Sith target. It takes an incredibly long time for a Jedi/Sith to recover from a failed push. I'd argue 2 competent Commandos are literally impossible to beat as a Sith/Jedi. Bottom line, blasters fire waaaaaay too quickly to be balanced, and this rapid fire lends them to be incredibly strong against melee-type units *EXCEPT* Wookies/SBDs, who appear blatantly overpowered anyway.

On a side note, why is Lightning so bad? If you force push lightning a gunner, and he happened to walk at just the right time, you simply die. You can't recover fast enough to zap him, and I have instances where I manage to land the lightning push, then use the FULL force bar, and still not kill the opponent... Really quite a terrible power.



inb4 git gud u suk u must be bad, as a typical community response.

As a fellow Chivalry, Gunz, Blade Symphony and M&B player I can say for sure you haven't had enough time with the system or animations. When my friends watch me playing, they say the same thing. They have no idea wtf is going on, and they can't believe the enemy and I are actually clashing combos. If you and your opponent combo each other at the same time, you will parry one another's attacks. You don't have to wait in between, you need to know how many swings your style or your opponent's have available to you. You already lose BP for spamming attacks, blocking and attacking back immediately afterwards already speeds up your attack frames. Players are exposed the moment they begin to swing, but like butterflying in gunz they can hold block immediately after attacking. The opening to punish on a swing is extremely marginal.
Since the saber stuff you asked for is already in the game, i'm sure you'll git gud

 

[NERO]

git gud

 

[andrew]

while you have experience in other similar games, you're applying that experience extremely haphazardly to mb2 without thinking of the consequences

1. being able to freely 2v1 gunners isn't built into the class for good reason, jedi risk vs reward gameplay with their relative safety when not attacking but complete vulnerability when doing so means certain things simply must stay the way they are
2. anyone can make someone dodge 30 swings in a row given enough free space, considering you move at the same speed its a simple matter of spacing and not really footwork
3. getting pushed down is even worse than missing a push 8)

im a gigantic fan of fighting games myself, and ive given a lot of though about how such mechanics could be implemented into mb2. however, they largely cant

m&b and chivalry are similar but they arent the same

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

To put it simply, there needs to be a better way past the block of opponents than BP break. It is rather annoying, to see them in the middle of a strong swing, completely missing, and then being unable to decisively kill them for it.

 

[Preston]

To put it simply, there needs to be a better way past the block of opponents than BP break. It is rather annoying, to see them in the middle of a strong swing, completely missing, and then being unable to decisively kill them for it.

Its called countering, and you could always go for the sw... if you're into that

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Countering does absolutely nothing, as they can just immediately block again. What is SW?

 

[Preston]

Countering does absolutely nothing, as they can just immediately block again. What is SW?

Um counterimg does not do nothing. I think this shows you need to ay with dueling more before you can make an accurate opinion and sw means side whack

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Um counterimg does not do nothing. I think this shows you need to ay with dueling more before you can make an accurate opinion and sw means side whack

I countered an opponent many times, but he simply continued to block. Also drags don't seem to be very effective, as going at their feet/sides is highly ineffective, especially with most animations. The saber staff should be extremely good at dragging around blocks, but none of its attacks work properly at doing that.

 

[Preston]

I countered an opponent many times, but he simply continued to block. Also drags don't seem to be very effective, as going at their feet/sides is highly ineffective, especially with most animations. The saber staff should be extremely good at dragging around blocks, but none of its attacks work properly at doing that.

I dont even know what you mean by dragging. And sabering at someones feet dont do any difference bp wise

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Dragging is what you're referring to with 'sidewhack'. It means moving your weapon manually around an enemy's block. Dragging your sword to hit their shoulder, or vice versa, mid swing.

One thing I've noticed in defense of these saber mechanics is that 'Jedi/Sith is hard, and takes skill.', which doesn't make much sense. I love skill/reward but there is a point to which the skill required becomes impossible, or the ease of use/reward is ridiculously out of line. You could replace the movement controls of the Jedi/Sith with QWOP, it certainly would take far more skill to play, but that would certainly not make it good. I watched a Mandalorian player go 30-2 on some supposedly skilled Jedi. Whereas, all of the jedi/sith in that match, even ones that were apparently 'good at pblock' and other such techniques, were at the very bottom, being annihilated by gunner 'blobs' and the like.

The powers are extremely weak (not to mention, why is Speed a Jedi only thing? It should be a core power, and they should get a proper ability), the deflection is terrible most of the time, giving no window to properly close the distance, and blasters are simply far too fast-firing. If you made them fire slower (with the exception of SBD/Droideka/Minigun blaster, which I think are balanced) and more like the movie/base game speed, then it would be far more realistic/fair. It would mean that 1 or 2 gunners could do absolutely nothing against a Jedi/Sith's defense, but 4 or 5 moving and flanking around, would be far too much against them. I mean, they already can respawn, and most of the respawning classes are *ridiculously* good against Sith/Jedi.

Oh, and maybe reducing team damage to 60%, so that deflecting shots doesn't instantly kill teammates by random chance.

 

[Preston]

Dragging is what you're referring to with 'sidewhack'. It means moving your weapon manually around an enemy's block. Dragging your sword to hit their shoulder, or vice versa, mid swing.

One thing I've noticed in defense of these saber mechanics is that 'Jedi/Sith is hard, and takes skill.', which doesn't make much sense. I love skill/reward but there is a point to which the skill required becomes impossible, or the ease of use/reward is ridiculously out of line. You could replace the movement controls of the Jedi/Sith with QWOP, it certainly would take far more skill to play, but that would certainly not make it good. I watched a Mandalorian player go 30-2 on some supposedly skilled Jedi. Whereas, all of the jedi/sith in that match, even ones that were apparently 'good at pblock' and other such techniques, were at the very bottom, being annihilated by gunner 'blobs' and the like.

The powers are extremely weak (not to mention, why is Speed a Jedi only thing? It should be a core power, and they should get a proper ability), the deflection is terrible most of the time, giving no window to properly close the distance, and blasters are simply far too fast-firing. If you made them fire slower (with the exception of SBD/Droideka/Minigun blaster, which I think are balanced) and more like the movie/base game speed, then it would be far more realistic/fair. It would mean that 1 or 2 gunners could do absolutely nothing against a Jedi/Sith's defense, but 4 or 5 moving and flanking around, would be far too much against them. I mean, they already can respawn, and most of the respawning classes are *ridiculously* good against Sith/Jedi.

Oh, and maybe reducing team damage to 60%, so that deflecting shots doesn't instantly kill teammates by random chance.

Again. This honestly a git good type if thing sorry to say, or I guess learn the game type of deal. You can just tell from your post that you dont understand the saber system much or gunning vs jedi and sith. Pblocking has nothing to do with saber vs gunner, force powers are definitely not under powerd and most of the time people are cry about jedi being op. Side whacking is not dragging like you said at all. Force speed currently is not for sith for balance reasons, deflect works fine if you know how to do it, its not manual anymore. And I laughed when you said sbd is balanced heh. Also why should a jedi be able to easily take two gunners? That is not balanced at all, each class is supposed to be balanced. Jedi isnt suppose to be a god class where you can destroy everything like in the movies. How long have you been playing this game, just curious, because it really sounds like maybe you have been for a week or 2. And jedi is meant to be easy to play, hard to master. And a player going 30/2 is no out of the normal at all. It happens for good players of any class, whether it be jedi,sith mando or any other gunner. Again I dont wanna sound rude, so dont take it the weong way. But this thread is honestly a learn to play thread.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Again. This honestly a git good type if thing sorry to say, or I guess learn the game type of deal. You can just tell from your post that you dont understand the saber system much or gunning vs jedi and sith. Pblocking has nothing to do with saber vs gunner, force powers are definitely not under powerd and most of the time people are cry about jedi being op. Side whacking is not dragging like you said at all. Force speed currently is not for sith for balance reasons, deflect works fine if you know how to do it, its not manual anymore. And I laughed when you said sbd is balanced heh. Also why should a jedi be able to easily take two gunners? That is not balanced at all, each class is supposed to be balanced. Jedi isnt suppose to be a god class where you can destroy everything like in the movies. How long have you been playing this game, just curious, because it really sounds like maybe you have been for a week or 2. And jedi is meant to be easy to play, hard to master. And a player going 30/2 is no out of the normal at all. It happens for good players of any class, whether it be jedi,sith mando or any other gunner. Again I dont wanna sound rude, so dont take it the weong way. But this thread is honestly a learn to play thread.

PBlocking is a skill that good Sith/Jedi use, and they still lost to Gunners. So that means that good Jedi/Sith lose hard to good gunners.

Because the gunners have respawn, and the Jedi/Sith doesn't. You cannot balance a game symmetrically with such asymmetrical roles, it is impossible. And, if high skill = high reward, then a skilled Sith/Jedi, should be capable of taking on a few skilled gunners by himself, since his class is by far the most difficult, right? Too bad that isn't how it happens.

I've played this mod for exactly 12 hours, so far. However, again, I'm applying my experience with loads of fighting games (SCIV MLG Dallas victory Algol/Kilik/Maxi main, MK9 2011 Evo loss Shang Tsung/Quan Chi/Ermac main), and sword combat games (Chiv DW/MW, Mount and Blade).

Even if it is a 'git gud' factor, the mod itself certainly doesn't help that. It took me forever to figure out what several things were and how to do them, even with the Library, and even with google. Eventually I had to defer to a veteran, after being told 'haha u suck' by dozens of other veterans when asking for their help.

 

[M@crobyte]

I've played this mod for exactly 12 hours, so far.

I'm sorry. I'm going to have to agree with everyone here. 12 hours is no where near enough to understand the mechanics of this game. You're way to new to be talking about how something is "broken." Every class has its own strength and weaknesses. It's up to you if you want to continue to learn and play or drop the mod. It's one thing to come on the forums requesting assistance on how to beat different classes. It's another to say the mod is at fault for your bad gameplay.