Open is finally dead.

[Defiant]

You realise both you and mace think a noob can make equal if not better changes to the game than a 10+ year vet who has been or is top tier at the game???

Neither of us said that. Neither is us believe that to be the case. You can be very knowledgeable and well informed without having a good k/d ratio.

neatly illustrates the lack of understanding that you guys have, if I may be so bold. Sure, you can play reasonably well without knowing everything, but you won't be anything but average, or slightly above average. Those who you claim to be accidentally good, are not actually very good compared to really good players and you not getting this very fact is part of the problem.

And you could know every mechanic inside and out, have hung around for 20 years and still only be an average skill player. The knowledge is important not the level of success in the game.

see and understand that changes are needed, yet you dismiss suggestions and ultimately do things your own way anyway...

What does this even mean? We can't do sll suggestions and have to make decisions or else nothing would change. I get it, you would make differnt choices, but it's not ego to not pick yours.

So, my brother put it much nicer than i did. But we pretty much Said the same thing. Listening to assmunchers, not good people cuz of ego, ignoring good people cuz of ego, and the entitlement being even bigger from the devs. Rofl, its almost like all good players have had the same experience

Who are the good people and who are the ass munchers? It is ego to think that you personally have all the solutions and that only your recipe can save mb2. Maybe stop cutting your hair and grow a beard to complete the look? I am before you all now answering this because *I* feel I owe you all. I am here to talk suggestions and improvement to explain how we got somethings wrong and to explain how we are going to try and make things better. I thank the people who want to engage respectively on those terms, to everyone else I understand your anger.

 

[Harrison☆Ford]

Open has finally died. After countless horrific developer changes and numerous complaints, the once glorious mode has been over taken by legends. Gonk has been on legends more, only legends based servers gain traction, and worst of all; the game population is lowering.
Edit: #FREEBLAZE

Heh dont worry guys I got this!!!

https://flic.kr/p/2qwUBK6

-Signed Harison☆Ford
" I dont Think IM Grumpy . "

 

[n00b]

Neither of us said that. Neither is us believe that to be the case. You can be very knowledgeable and well informed without having a good k/d ratio.



And you could know every mechanic inside and out, have hung around for 20 years and still only be an average skill player. The knowledge is important not the level of success in the game.



What does this even mean? We can't do sll suggestions and have to make decisions or else nothing would change. I get it, you would make differnt choices, but it's not ego to not pick yours.



Who are the good people and who are the ass munchers? It is ego to think that you personally have all the solutions and that only your recipe can save mb2. Maybe stop cutting your hair and grow a beard to complete the look? I am before you all now answering this because *I* feel I owe you all. I am here to talk suggestions and improvement to explain how we got somethings wrong and to explain how we are going to try and make things better. I thank the people who want to engage respectively on those terms, to everyone else I understand your anger.

You did just say that, being good at the game is not only K/D, but the very best people like my brother pointed out are both knowledgeable and good mechanically, is it really that hard to grasp?


People playing for 20 years and without being an above average player do not know every mechanic inside out, simple as. I agree, that you can have some good feedback if you understand the "correct things", that does not change the fact that it's an outlier that a bad player will be able to understand and grasp the same concepts as a good player, and understand them "correctly"



You can call it an ego thing if you want. To me it's logic, like I mentioned earlier you don't ask a random guy to fix your plumbing issue, you ask a plumber. We can make it more relateable if you want.
You probably drive a car, have been in many cars, known about cars for years, but I assume you are not a mechanic therefore you wouldn't know how to do diagnostics on a car, or how to fix it.
So, I can't see how you think it's an ego thing. Why would you not listen to the people who have put in alot of time and effort to understand the game, the odds tid bits and tricks, and have become really good, or rather listen to someone who is "assmunching", because from personal experience alot of it is literally "We dont like this guy because he didn't say it politely etc" Even when given constructive feedback but not worded politely it gets shut down... And it certainly is a slap in the face to alot of the vets around, who are the people keeping this alive, not "all the new players" because very few of them stick around.

 

[Fang]

oof and they wonder why I won't join beta teams

 

[SeV]

People would rather play a 6 or 7 year old patch than the current dueling. What does that tell us about the development in this area of the game?

Can also just look at open mode pop in the past and now.

Is it really that hard to start listening to your player-base?

you could know every mechanic inside and out, have hung around for 20 years and still only be an average skill player. The knowledge is important not the level of success in the game.

It's not the knowledge, it's what you do with it. Are you seriously trying to argue against the notion that the best players in the game should be listened to over some average player who can read a changelog? Not only that, but this dismissal of good players feedback has been going on for years, and look at where it got us. We've got an example of your theory falling apart right in front of us.

It's very simple: if you're average, with or without all the knowledge, you will misdiagnose problems.

I'm not saying to ignore feedback from everyone except the sweats, all I'm saying is that if we have an issue and the sweats propose solution A, and the casuals solution B, solution A is likely to be better. It's common sense.

 

[Greg]

I’ve already written to you that reverting the patch would be the best decision, considering what’s happening with open and duels. Yet it seems like nothing gets through devs, and instead, devs prefer to run beta tests on the live version, further discouraging the few remaining players still engaged with MB2. What’s even more absurd is claiming that a revert is a step backward. Sometimes, when standing at the edge of a precipice, taking a step back is the smartest choice. However, as we can see here, logic doesn’t seem to factor into the decision making.

Blaming the community for not populating servers during tests is equally laughable. Many bugs and known issues weren’t even fixed before patch R20 was introduced. But sure, let’s blame the community as always it’s not like people were asking (sarcasm) for a delay in releasing that patch. Back then, during the frenzy, you told everyone to hold off playing for 2-3 weeks so you could fix the issues. Well, we waited, and now it seems there are even more problems, and also Tempest now is missing.

If you’re still convinced that sticking with R20 is a good idea, fine, so be it. But don’t expect the player base to grow. The fewer people play, the worse it will be for the game. Normally, patches took about a year or two to be properly fixed, and this seems no different.

Lastly, please spare us the excuse that this is volunteer work and done out of passion. Everyone understands that, but it doesn’t justify the massive mistakes that have been made.

 

[Fang]

We're at the point where we're a fragmented community and now with these recent changes and leo's (creditable excellent) work in UI but more relevant mbii switcher. You'll be left with the casuals as the pros will just go play VX.xX.xx

 

[2cwldys]

WTF? Got to love the power tripping

 

[2cwldys]

No one is denying that changes need to be implemented.

And you realise that I am British in Britain right? It's complete bullshit to make it sound like there is no EU representation.

No EU representation? You don't even play the game.

 

[Defiant]

No EU representation? You don't even play the game.

Yes I do. Often.

 

[2cwldys]

Yes I do. Often.

No, you don't, and you are very out of touch with players and developers in this game. Must be really fun having the nuclear button and waiting on everyone do all the work for you. Especially when you ghost them when they're not convenient or of any use to you.

 

[Defiant]

No, you don't, and you are very out of touch with players and developers in this game. Must be really fun having the nuclear button and waiting on everyone do all the work for you. Especially when you ghost them when they're not convenient or of any use to you.

I am a developer of the game and I think I know what and how often I play. I think you need to stop repeating memes that are made about me and to base yourself in reality.

 

[2cwldys]

I am a developer of the game and I think I know what and how often I play. I think you need to stop repeating memes that are made about me and to base yourself in reality.

How could you possibly "play" the game if you don't know any of the problems you face, that players are raising their fists about on the forum? Sounds very out of touch to me. Memes? If the way you handle MBII wasn't so blatantly obvious, people wouldn't make memes out of you. To me I personally think you're just a gatekeeper of this mod, and a brick wall. I think you don't really care about the players at all, or the people working underneath you.

 

[Defiant]

How could you possibly "play" the game if you don't know any of the problems you face, that players are raising their fists about on the forum? Sounds very out of touch to me. Memes? If the way you handle MBII wasn't so blatantly obvious, people wouldn't make memes out of you. To me I personally think you're just a gatekeeper of this mod, and a brick wall. I think you don't really care about the players at all, or the people working underneath you.

It's easy. I load up the launcher and press 'play'.

You're just salty because you think I've sighted you. I tried to offer you official status for your work. When you didn't bother to actually turn that down and Frenzy passed on a message from you I was able to work something out with him that would let things go forward, but you wouldn't know that since you throw a tantrum a 3 year old would be proud of.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

It's very simple: if you're average, with or without all the knowledge, you will misdiagnose problems.

I'm not saying to ignore feedback from everyone except the sweats, all I'm saying is that if we have an issue and the sweats propose solution A, and the casuals solution B, solution A is likely to be better. It's common sense.

It doesn't. I've seen top players giving ideas that serve more themselves than the game as a whole.

There have been many long discussions in the beta channel with some of the self-described top players where Hessu's statement is completely accurate.

What frustrates me is how much people like myself did listen, and designed features that deal with issues players in the community have. Examples being things like, choke points being too strong in maps due to imps defensive capabilities including things like fire grenades completely stalling pushes.

I put up design documents and class updates, and even a new class, that dealt with some of those issues (at least conceptually) and they're still not in the game for even testing. Some of those I put up design documents for before it even became a massive discussion point in the community. For example, the new class that can extinguish fire grenades or the riot shield and new stun mechanics to help push through choke points or temporarily take certain people/classes out of play without being totally reliant on our knockdown mechanic.

I often felt like when I had discussions with some of the best players, that new ideas were often not even on the table. It was often just buff, nerf, modify some already existing mechanic and it always felt extremely uncreative, narrowminded, and echo-chamber like to me. It is even one of the gripes you have seen in threads recently with some players thinking "scrimmers" got too much say/power in the community. Solution A is not "likely to be better. It's common sense". In my experience it has never been that way.

 

[2cwldys]

It's easy. I load up the launcher and press 'play'.

You're just salty because you think I've sighted you. I tried to offer you official status for your work. When you didn't bother to actually turn that down and Frenzy passed on a message from you I was able to work something out with him that would let things go forward, but you wouldn't know that since you throw a tantrum a 3 year old would be proud of.

What you consider a tantrum is people being protective over their hard work and efforts. It is really sad that you treat anyone who wants to give back to this game in the way you do. Like roguewookiee said, this stubbornness of yours is what will kill this game.

My issue is, I hear something different from every team member I speak to. I've read your licensing and copyright agreement, and I refuse to hand over this work and let you guys break it like you have the rest of the game. I have built this mode with the input of players since the very beginning, something y'know, you guys should take notes about and actually do?

IPod is the maintainer of legends, but nothing stops FrenZy or anyone from making changes to it, because they feel like it. I don't want the same thing happening, and I have very clearly read your licensing agreement and I refuse to hand this over to people who can't even make proper decisions for the games themselves. You offer me dev status, FrenZy says "Idk about that" and you guys are seriously so misinformed, there's no unilateral conversation and honestly, I don't blame anyone for having tantrums in your PMs defiant with the way you selectively respond to people. You literally will leave messages go for weeks on end without any response, and it would be very simple and direct questions that I need answers to like- "Can I be the maintainer over my own work?"

It is really unfortunate that projects of this size has to go through someone like you, a brick wall, who remotely has no interest in it outside of what players or benefit it can bring the game; as well as someone who won't let me speak for myself in dev channels regarding it, and condoning other developers leeching assets from it. You've never playtested, and I frankly think none of you care about the hard effort anyone else gives back to this game outside of what control you can have over it.

I find it funny with how you can ghost me like you do, I go and make a post on the forum regarding Leo making a third party launcher, and anything third party about it was enough to rile you up to make a post. I mean things are pretty black and white here.

 

[n00b]

Would either of you, mace or defiant answer my question.

Would you let a random unqualified person fix/advice you on your plumbing issues?

 

[WaceMindu]

Please don't shoot the messenger, just trying to cool things down a bit - after going through the last few pages, I think Defiant & Mace were mostly arguing that being really good/skilful, or even perfectly knowledgeable, doesn't mean you'll automatically provide good suggestions for balance or gameplay additions.
Take the example of pro players for competitive games : their feedback usually is the very best and that's undisputable, they'll immediately know when anything is amiss with the gameplay since their execution is optimal, but will they know how to fix it or figure out what's wrong to begin with, though ? Their takes on balance or gameplay issues can sometimes be completely off the mark, even though they're objectively the very best at the games they play.

I agree that feedback from the very best players is the most valuable more often than not, but there's also merit in listening to alternative outlooks from people with lower skill in execution, when it comes to all the rest.
Giving out detailed and thorough feedback, being creative, having vision, observing the metagame, listening to other voices in the community, understanding the more mechanical and technical side of things - all of this needs an additional set of skills which only a somewhat mixed set of players can provide, imo. Getting something good out of that mixed bag is the really tricky part. Naturally, any beta tester absolutely needs to be perfectly knowledgeable and regularly play the game (duh), especially for such a quirky mod.. no point otherwise.

After 15+ years playing this and observing the forums from the sidelines, it's still pretty obvious that the feedback and suggestions of some well-respected veterans has been continuously ignored for bad reasons, though - and some of them didn't make it all that easy either, to be perfectly fair.
It's a no brainer - really, please put egos aside and like, just listen to SeV about sabering before he's gone, as a painfully obvious example.

I just hope this won't kill my favourite mod, even though I suck at it. The first few pages were going too well

 

[2cwldys]

There have been many long discussions in the beta channel with some of the self-described top players where Hessu's statement is completely accurate.

What frustrates me is how much people like myself did listen, and designed features that deal with issues players in the community have. Examples being things like, choke points being too strong in maps due to imps defensive capabilities including things like fire grenades completely stalling pushes.

I put up design documents and class updates, and even a new class, that dealt with some of those issues (at least conceptually) and they're still not in the game for even testing. Some of those I put up design documents for before it even became a massive discussion point in the community. For example, the new class that can extinguish fire grenades or the riot shield and new stun mechanics to help push through choke points or temporarily take certain people/classes out of play without being totally reliant on our knockdown mechanic.

I often felt like when I had discussions with some of the best players, that new ideas were often not even on the table. It was often just buff, nerf, modify some already existing mechanic and it always felt extremely uncreative, narrowminded, and echo-chamber like to me. It is even one of the gripes you have seen in threads recently with some players thinking "scrimmers" got too much say/power in the community. Solution A is not "likely to be better. It's common sense". In my experience it has never been that way.

To me I think the whole "scrimmer" issue is self explanatory.

AOD JK division dies, prominent AOD members becomes sandbox, AOD has always been involved in influencing the dev process. Nothing has changed. Naturally the groups of skilled players that inflate eachother's sense of ego, in private lobbies, will operate in an echo-chamber, especially when a good number of those are involved solely in the beta testing process, and even lately some of them joining the actual development team.

Example, all the needless nerfs and changes to projectile rifle. I spoke about it openly and was given some BS excuse and reasoning other than "it was decided between FrenZ and the contingent of scrimmers." For people to deny they don't have heavy influence over dev direction in this game, is sadly delusional.

Then everywhere you look, they have official admin and moderator status on practically everything. Yeah. They have a significant pull of this game, and it's not players thinking, and more exposing their cabal and their fingers involved in everything. It needs to seriously stop.

 

[Defiant]

What you consider a tantrum is people being protective over their hard work and efforts. It is really sad that you treat anyone who wants to give back to this game in the way you do. Like roguewookiee said, this stubbornness of yours is what will kill this game.

My issue is, I hear something different from every team member I speak to. I've read your licensing and copyright agreement, and I refuse to hand over this work and let you guys break it like you have the rest of the game. I have built this mode with the input of players since the very beginning, something y'know, you guys should take notes about and actually do?

IPod is the maintainer of legends, but nothing stops FrenZy or anyone from making changes to it, because they feel like it. I don't want the same thing happening, and I have very clearly read your licensing agreement and I refuse to hand this over to people who can't even make proper decisions for the games themselves. You offer me dev status, FrenZy says "Idk about that" and you guys are seriously so misinformed, there's no unilateral conversation and honestly, I don't blame anyone for having tantrums in your PMs defiant with the way you selectively respond to people. You literally will leave messages go for weeks on end without any response, and it would be very simple and direct questions that I need answers to like- "Can I be the maintainer over my own work?"

It is really unfortunate that projects of this size has to go through someone like you, a brick wall, who remotely has no interest in it outside of what players or benefit it can bring the game; as well as someone who won't let me speak for myself in dev channels regarding it, and condoning other developers leeching assets from it. You've never playtested, and I frankly think none of you care about the hard effort anyone else gives back to this game outside of what control you can have over it.

And there is no sense of you wanting to base your work off of 20 years of other people's contributions who have done so on the basis that equal access will be given to all. You don't see the irony in wanting to take for you own project?

Even with that we came up with a differnt way to make it happen that let you have your cake and eat it to, a new community contributions route.

Devs should not be promising you things beyond their authority without talking to me, we can certainly agree on that. I don't it is fair to blame me that other people have promised you things they are unable to deliver. Still I bend over backwards to try and help you to avoid disappointment and because I dont want you to have wasted money on your python script. I like what you have done and if you would take a breath and stop thinking of me as some evil monster who wants to destroy your work you mind find that I am trying to help you get it out to people even though you have spent the past evening accusing me of doing and being god knows what.