New Player Thoughts On Saber Combat

[xVladalex]

Before you continue to read:

1st - I'm not a native english speaker, forgive me if I incorrectly write some words or if some sentences don't make sense to you (if that's the case, just tell me and I'll try to correct them)

2nd - What I'm going to introduce to you in this thread is just a Concept.
With that said, I don't expect any developer to put the features I'll list down into the game (if that happens I'll be more than happy, otherwise I'll live my life as I've always done)

3rd - I'm kind of new to this game (I've been playing it for almost 5/6 months), because of that I might not know every single game mechanic, even if I did read the most up to date guides.

Saber Combat System:

Let's talk about one of the most popular topics (from what I could see) in the gameplay forums: Lightsaber Combat.
Being a new player gives me a fresh and unbiased view on the current state in which the game is right now.
This means that I don't have any "nostalgia" for older builds of the game.
With that said, let's proceed to my personal thoughts on the saber combat.

1st - If I had to describe the lightsaber duel mechanics in one word I'd say "Mess".
This system is way too overcrowed with so many features (PB, MB, swingblocks, half swings, ACC, ACM ecc...) that dueling comes down to a "try to guess why you died" or "how did I kill this guy?".
That doesn't mean that you don't need any skill to play as a jedi/sith (some people really know what they're doing), but it all comes down to a series of numbers (FP/BP drain) that makes this more of a "statistical mini-game" rather than a duel.
You're basicaly trying to deplenish the other player's BP bar (with various tools at your disposal, like PB for example), which is nothing more than a life bar in the end.
If there was a thing that I really enjoyed about Jedi Accademy (Many people forgot that this is just a mod of that game) was it's "kill on touch" duels.
You just needed one swing in the right place to kill a stormtrooper, bounty hunters or even siths (the easiest ones without armor).
The sabers in that game had a "weight" that this mod took away (at least in the jedi vs sith fights).
What I would do is to make the lightsaber swings/parrys completely manual.

How Would It Work:
- Swings are just swings (no first swings, halfswings mechanics, ecc... ).
If your saber hits another saber it's a "hit", if it hits a body part the other guy is dead.
- Lightsaber styles have combo limits (numer of swings), and when you finish a combo a timer (of 2/3 seconds) starts, forcing the player to do parrys before he can do another combo.
- Parrys are done in a similar way as Manual Blocks but you only have to press the "right mouse button + movement button (WASD)".
They also cover you in different ways:
(viewed from the player's point of view)
[ = left side (A)
] = right side (D)
_ = top side (W)
\ = WA
/ = SA
\ = SD
/ = WD
. = just an empty space

\._./............................Pretty similar to the
[.....].......................<------ current PB zones
/....\

RMB+D covers your right side ( / - ] - \ )
RMB+S covers your top side ( \ - _ - / )
RMB+A covers your left side ( \ - [ - / )

- Right Mouse Button makes you walk (you're doing the standard auto defensive stance as it is now), and running denies you from doing combos (only 1/2 swings, then the combo timer sets in) or any parry.
- Parrying blaster fire is done automatically by long pressing "RMB", just like in the current version.
- There are 2 types of saber hits in duels.
If two sabers collide while they were both doing an attack swing, both player's combo interrupt and the combo timer sets in.
Otherwise if a saber hits another one while in a parrying stance, nothing happens (apart from you staying alive), and the duel continues.
- Slaps, kicks, ecc... have the same effect as now.
- In order to make blaster fire bouce, you'll have to press "LMB+RMB" while standing still.
- Special attacks and Katas are much more difficult to parry, but with the right timing and speed you'll be able to parry them (most of them have some pretty obvious directions, for example the yellow DFA can be parryed with RMB+S), or just dodge it.
After a Special/Kata has been performed a combo timer of 6/7 seconds starts out (you have to parry at least two enemy combos now), forcing you to rely on this attacks only occasionally.
- Halfswings animations will remain, but they will be counted as normal swings (they're also part of the combo limit).
- In order to chain attacks you'll have to single press LMB when the flash from the sabers hit appear (you can't long press LMB to do combos).

2nd - Lighsaber Forms are something pretty unique, that's for sure.
And for a 2000s game, splitting this "Forms" into 3 different combat styles ( light, medium, strong) made everything a lot easyer, both for the developers ( 3 things to work on insteand of 7) and players ( most of the time you can use just one style and complete the majority of levels with it) alike.
In the Vanilla version this feature feels right, because it fits into that "simple" gameplay style quite well.
But in this mod it felt pretty flat, because every style feels like a different version of "Yellow" ( with it's own animations, BP, damage, ecc...).
Yes, the current styles system is an improvement over the "Vanilla" one, but it doesn't make any of these styles unique in any way ( apart for some special moves and attacks).

Part 2: Work in progress

 

[shea conn]

ye no

 

[Lessen]

that makes this more of a "statistical mini-game" rather than a duel.

I'm not much of a duelist but I want to voice my disagreement for this point because I think dueling is pretty exciting and there's only a few "statistics" that factor into it, from my understanding:

• You hit the enemy (without getting PB'd) to wear down their BP, to kill them. This is like wearing down HP in any game ever.
• If you get a bunch of hits without getting hit much, you get a damage boost. This isn't very complicated.
• If you get hit while running, or get interrupted at the very start of your attack, you'll take extra damage. Also not very complicated.

Already understanding those core mechanics, what I'm really thinking about during a duel (as a not very good duelist) is footwork and attack patterns, which is good, because that's what I think one should be thinking about in a sword fighting game.

That being said, I'll concede that saber vs saber does have pretty low "weight" to the sabers, as you said, making every fight more like the spinny Episode 3 Anakin vs Obi than like the cautious Original Trilogy fights. However, Red style at least has a lot of weight to it. I like Red. Red is nice.

If your saber hits another saber it's a "hit", if it hits a body part the other guy is dead.

Although, to parry shots aimed at your torso you'll have to do a "RMB+S", and for the legs you'll simply do a "RMB+W"

These ideas both demand inhuman precision from the defender, while just rewarding the attacker immensely for attacking in chaotically random ways.

Which is not to say I don't find the current defensive capabilities of camping saberists to be frustrating, on a regular basis. But I don't like your solution. (Speaking for myself.) But still, to be fair, I would be interested in SOME kind of saber revamp that makes quick kills in saber fights much more possible, somehow, although given that saberists are a 1-life melee class (meaning they have to put themselves very close to danger), if you take away their strong defense then they might get frustrating really quickly. I dunno. It's a complicated topic.

for example a "WA" shot is countered with a "WA" swing

A "WA" shot? So you have to be reading the gunner's footwork at the millisecond that they fire their shot in order to counter it? Impossible.

 

[xVladalex]

I'm not much of a duelist but I want to voice my disagreement for this point because I think dueling is pretty exciting and there's only a few "statistics" that factor into it, from my understanding:

• You hit the enemy (without getting PB'd) to wear down their BP, to kill them. This is like wearing down HP in any game ever.
• If you get a bunch of hits without getting hit much, you get a damage boost. This isn't very complicated.
• If you get hit while running, or get interrupted at the very start of your attack, you'll take extra damage. Also not very complicated.

Already understanding those core mechanics, what I'm really thinking about during a duel (as a not very good duelist) is footwork and attack patterns, which is good, because that's what I think one should be thinking about in a sword fighting game.

That being said, I'll concede that saber vs saber does have pretty low "weight" to the sabers, as you said, making every fight more like the spinny Episode 3 Anakin vs Obi than like the cautious Original Trilogy fights. However, Red style at least has a lot of weight to it. I like Red. Red is nice.




These ideas both demand inhuman precision from the defender, while just rewarding the attacker immensely for attacking in chaotically random ways.

Which is not to say I don't find the current defensive capabilities of camping saberists to be frustrating, on a regular basis. But I don't like your solution. (Speaking for myself.) But still, to be fair, I would be interested in SOME kind of saber revamp that makes quick kills in saber fights much more possible, somehow, although given that saberists are a 1-life melee class (meaning they have to put themselves very close to danger), if you take away their strong defense then they might get frustrating really quickly. I dunno. It's a complicated topic.


A "WA" shot? So you have to be reading the gunner's footwork at the millisecond that they fire their shot in order to counter it? Impossible.

Thank you for your reply!
So, What I wanted to point out in this "statistical mini-game" is that it isn't in any way a "unique" duel mechanic, because it's just you trying to wear down the enemy HP bar (BP points), as you said.
This makes things less concrete, and more abstract (it's like the way world of tanks hp bars vs war thunder modules system work).
As for the "inhuman" precision I was going to talk about blaster shots speed and saber swing speeds in the second part.
My idea was to slow down blaster speed, and make all the different styles swing at a speed between yellow and red.
For the WA shot I probably didn't make this point clear.
It's related (the WA zone) to the point where the blaster will hit, so in this case WA will hit on the Left Upper side of your body.

 

[Bare Jon]

Too little features

 

[Liniyka_xddd]

Being a new player gives me a fresh and unbiased view on the current state in which the game is right now.

While you try to make it seem like a good thing, I'd argue that it's actually not.

You being a new player means that you don't have any knowledge of previous iterations of sabering and other game mechanics, how they worked before, how they changed, why they changed, what was tried, what wasn't tried and so on and so forth. It basically means you are mostly ignorant when it comes to the history of mb2 development and balancing, and that doesn't exactly help your arguments and ideas.

Next up, you don't like the "statistical mini-game" and would like it to be more like vanilla JKA. Can you spot the problem with this? Duelists play this mod EXACTLY BECAUSE it's so much different from vanilla. I'm not saying the current system is perfect, I'd say it's actually kinda bad, but change it too much and old players are simply going to leave (if they haven't yet).

You mentioned WoT and War Thunder. What do you think would happen if WoT was changed to be like WT? Or if WT was changed to be like WoT? Yeah, it would fucking ruin everything, because people who play WoT play it for HP bars, and people who play WT play it for the absence of HP bars.

So yeah, my point is, don't expect such radical ideas to be taken seriously. I agree that changes should be made, but slowly and cautiously. And let's be honest, you probably didn't think all that much about how your changes would affect the mod and it's playerbase, did you?

 

[xVladalex]

Well, as I said at the beginning of the thread this is just a CONCEPT, I dont expect the devs to change the game the way I want.
It's just an Idea, nothing more.

 

[shea conn]

Well, as I said at the beginning of the thread this is just a CONCEPT, I dont expect the devs to change the game the way I want.
It's just an Idea, nothing more.

It's a bad idea

 

[xVladalex]

It's a bad idea

Interesting how everything I say can be so easily turned against me.
Nice, at this point I think that a part 2 would be useless, so I'll leave this as it is now.
If for some remote chance anyone of you wants to see the 2nd part I'll be more than glad to make it.
Have a nice day/game everyone

 

[shea conn]

Interesting how everything I say can be so easily turned against me.
Nice, at this point I think that a part 2 would be useless, so I'll leave this as it is now.
If for some remote chance anyone of you wants to see the 2nd part I'll be more than glad to make it.
Have a nice day/game everyone

make it i fancy a good laugh

 

[xVladalex]

make it i fancy a good laugh

Well, that's not exactly what I had in mind.
But you now what?
The net full of great memes!
Kust search for them, and eventually you'll find a hidden treasure.

 

[foggy]

Don't listen to him Vladaalex, sheaconn is a rude asshole. I think your idea is great, let's put it on the fridge where everybody can see it

 

[xVladalex]

Don't listen to him Vladaalex, sheaconn is a rude asshole. I think your idea is great, let's put it on the fridge where everybody can see it

Thank you very much!
Don't worry, I kind of figured that out by myself.
And if you don't like some mechanics that I described (or think that they wouldn't work), feel free to tell me.