MBII and PVE?

[T r i s t a n]

I'm curious,
I have been playing MBII religiously for a solid 100+ hours up until this point from the moment I found it scrolling through the deep dark interwebs in search of a game that could keep my attention for longer than a few hours. MBII is an amazing mod/title, capable of things I have no concept to be possible. So it brings me to wonder... Now I have played every game mode there is currently available in MBII and I can say that I enjoy each individually for their uniqueness and sheer quality game play, and community. FA, Duel, and Open are ideal game types (not saying they could not be improved or even added upon.) But I am curious now about the PVE capabilities of MBII? I can see that in multiple maps their seems to be some sort of AI competence, could this AI system be improved upon in future updates? Or could perhaps even one day a PVE game mode be implemented if the community had a taste for it?
All I am saying is their seems to be AI that are capable of combat, as seen in the Jedi Temple map. Would it not be possible to add multiple AI opponents in lets say, an Arena, or Dungeon Crawler instance? I am not saying this is a simple task, I am not even saying that I have the knowledge if this would even be possible.
But I have always been one for Co-Op experiences, I love playing games with friends, working together to conquer mission/objectives is very fun in my opinion. I believe many of you may feel this way as well, so why not look into a Horde mode or something? Could it be possible?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL9hWqTvk8Y

 

[Gargos]

The AI system is near impossible to make into smth worthy for mb2

 

[T r i s t a n]

What are the reasons for this? The combat AI displayed on the Jedi Temple map could very possibly be made into something worthy of MBII in my honest opinion, picture this: The little Padawan AI in the Jedi Temple are not very good, you can slay them individually with relative ease on most occasions. But sometimes, sometimes the AI fights back with the burning fury of 1000 suns, this is something that interests me. Imagine, 10 AI Padawan's/Sith Acolytes coming at you all at once, could you defeat them all? would it be so easy as fighting 1 v 1 with them? There are certain Jedi AI in the Temple that even have increased health, 1 or 2 hits to kill, now imagine those 10 Jedi/Sith coming at you at once with increased health. The odds start to tip in the favor of the AI, but now add one more player character. Now the odds are even. It is an interesting concept at any rate.

 

[Gargos]

Whats the fun at sabering mindlessly moving bots. It may be funny sometimes in jeditemple map when others watch but when actually fighting them srsly, it is a bore.

 

[M@crobyte]

Whats the fun at sabering mindlessly moving bots. It may be funny sometimes in jeditemple map when others watch but when actually fighting them srsly, it is a bore.

Different people have different taste. Some people enjoy co-op more than multiplayer. What Tristan is suggesting has been suggested before in the previous forum, but it ended up being an idea that was just not worked on. I seriously doubt it's "impossible" to implement considering how much mb2 has already added.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

I always kinda thought about like there being 6 player coop maps, but the problem would is that the AI would work like sentry guns instead of how they work in the base game.

I could see a horde mode working with this game though.

 

[agentoo8]

If you want a good mod for coop multiplayer JKA, download OJP (Open Jedi Project). Cool mechanics, the best saber system of any JKA mod, and the singleplayer maps have been fixed on and designed for coop play!

 

[HARDCASE]

If you want a good mod for coop multiplayer JKA, download OJP (Open Jedi Project). Cool mechanics, the best saber system of any JKA mod, and the singleplayer maps have been fixed on and designed for coop play!

do people still play that though

 

[agentoo8]

Not really, it never had the publicity it deserved.

 

[Tempest]

It's not impossible but it's a vast undertaking that isn't on the list of anyone's priorities.

 

[T r i s t a n]

I understand the difficulties that a game mode like this represents, and I do also understand that the Devs are already busy with enough on their plate with the new update nearing release, but it does not hinder my curiosity for the Co-Op capabilities of this mod. I have heard of OJP in the past, never have I played it myself. But I have heard of it. In my opinion I prefer MBII in every aspect, possibly because I have invested so much time and effort into learning how to be efficient in MBII, but I digress. OJP would be a fine substitute for a Star Wars Co-Op experience, but it would never feel quite the same as MBII does, wouldn't give me the same enjoyment of slaying Padawan's by the dozen as MBII would, I prefer to use the combat system implemented in MBII compared to a similar version like in OJP or the Vanilla combat that is JKA base, I simply cannot return to regular saber combat now that I have played MBII. But as I said, I understand the vast undertaking that could possibly be involved with a PVE game mode being implemented in the future. But I believe it to be possible none the less, and with an experienced Mod creator taking the helm and leading it in the right direction, I believe it could become a go to mode for many MBII players as well as new and possible returning players as well. Definitely something I would publicly advertise on a regular basis. Perhaps somewhere down the line in the future of MBII we may see something being worked on.

 

[Tempest]

If you're referring to a full PvE type of playing, then that would basically be making an entirely new game...It's possible to get bots to behave according to more MB2-oriented styles of play but it would be a very large undertaking. You'd essentially have to rewrite all the logic for every type of AI, create your own (based on the already convoluted mess) Jedi/Sith logic, pathfinding for maps, etc etc. It's not a simple thing that you're asking for (lots of doubt that one person job would suffice if you expect it to get done in a reasonable amount of time).
There's also the fun of bots vs the NPC spawns but yeah.

 

[T r i s t a n]

If you're referring to a full PvE type of playing, then that would basically be making an entirely new game...It's possible to get bots to behave according to more MB2-oriented styles of play but it would be a very large undertaking. You'd essentially have to rewrite all the logic for every type of AI, create your own (based on the already convoluted mess) Jedi/Sith logic, pathfinding for maps, etc etc. It's not a simple thing that you're asking for (lots of doubt that one person job would suffice if you expect it to get done in a reasonable amount of time).
There's also the fun of bots vs the NPC spawns but yeah.

Of course.
The points you make are absolutely right. The thought of creating individual AI for enemies, and pathfinding for maps, etc. Makes me completely useless, because I have no idea what kind of program and code experience it would take.
But. Imagine this for a second: Are you aware of the Jedi Padawan that spawns quite deep into the Jedi Temple map? Once you enter the room, I mean. He spawns there, appears, out of nowhere... Picture this now, you are in the Geonosis Arena, or even, the Maze map. You would spawn in the maze, you would have some kind of Objective, or nothing at all, you could simply be entering the "Maze Arena" or whatever to kill any thing that dares stand peacefully. The enemies do NOT have to be walking around as the player/s spawn, they could simply have spawn points (preferably random) in the maze, where they would spawn in front, hidden, and all around the player/s... There's no need for any more work really, the work has really already been done (in a bare bones aspect). The enemies can understand friend from foe already, they understand how to essentially attack in a somewhat random skill level, varying from baby battle bitch, to The Dragon Warrior, and they know how to move, as seen in the Jedi Temple, players may move Padawan's around the map, so they understand basic tracking. I believe that if in a scenario where I was playing in the maze or the Geonosis Arena (which being an open map would have to have more dangerous Jedi/Sith. Ex: more health, different attack styles, possible random attack styles to generate the illusion of AI.) say I, turned a corner and suddenly I was surrounded by Jedi/Sith that in fact had me under a massive Mind Trick up until this point when they decided to kill me I would be petrified to be fighting various random fighting, varying health, possible force wielding Jedi/Sith so suddenly. (perhaps not spawn the enemies on top of the player if possible. maybe at a good height or distance so the Jedi/Player/Sith has time to think of wtf to do with his very dwindling existence in the next few moments he has until he is completely surrounded). BUT THEN a friendly Jedi/Player/Sith comes to your aid and together you slice and dice the sneaky cock thistles, receiving a minor 1 casualty. You survived.
Now that is an experience I would give more thought to.

 

[Tempest]

Trust me, I get it. I'm pretty sure most of us that have been playing since ages past have gone through the dreams that you're having now. Unfortunately, the NPCs and such will still have the AI from base JKA. That pretty much negates the whole point of how MB2's sabering works, sadly. Other than that, everything else is quite possible from what you've written.

 

[T r i s t a n]

Trust me, I get it. I'm pretty sure most of us that have been playing since ages past have gone through the dreams that you're having now. Unfortunately, the NPCs and such will still have the AI from base JKA. That pretty much negates the whole point of how MB2's sabering works, sadly. Other than that, everything else is quite possible from what you've written.

I agree, the NPC enemies will retain their AI. But that's not necessarily a bad thing, (sure it could be worked upon, but as a bare bones enemy AI, I'd take it over nothing at all) it would only add option to the way sabering works, it would not negate, nor would it change it. I understand where you're coming from, from a duelist's stand point I would hate to see the combat mechanics dumbed down, but that would not need to happen. PVE can be less technical than Duel, Open, or FA, instead of fighting other players, you are fighting NPC's, so of course the game play will be inevitably different, that simply appeals to a less Hard Core player base, and opens the door to less competitive more casual gamer's to come try MBII, unless someone actually does dive into creating actual NPC AI. Then game play could be more Competitive/Hardcore. But that is in the possible far future... For now I simply suggest a Horde mode where enemies spawn near the Player or in significant spawn locations to attack and create fun PVE and Co-Op experiences. It would be bare bones, yes. But what early concept isn't? Early PVE builds could simply consist of an Arena map where enemies spawn in increasing numbers, and difficulties (health raise, different fighting styles, etc) and the Player/s has to survive as long as possible until they are killed. Then this build can be added upon, new enemy types, new enemy uniforms, (possibly random generated looking enemies using base JKA skin options or MBII skin options thrown into the mix to keep enemies from being the same over and over again, even random Light Saber colors would be nice) possibly add objectives, a score board for enemies killed, life limit, maybe a shared pool life limit to keep players working cooperatively so they don't run out of lives and fail. These are simple and very basic ideas that I just thought of off the top of my head, there are many, many, many different ways PVE can be built and designed (if I need to push for it, so be it.) and these are only the bare minimum ideas I have contributed alone, I'm sure that if more people like myself came together and designed a PVE element, it could very well one day be worthy of MBII.

 

[Cat Lady]

I think that "horde" mode for co-op could be quite interesting (waves, like mass effect 3 multiplayer), even with current AI, if waves themselves would be hard enough. At the same time, I don't see that happening in foreseeable future.

 

[T r i s t a n]

Well, I can't imagine a simple Alpha build version of it to see some kind of testing release too far in the future if it was to see the light of day by the Dev's. Really all they have to do is spawn NPC enemy AI in a room with a player, and if it proves difficult to survive against and isn't just completely simple to slaughter NPC's by the dozen like nothing, then I would say that is a success over a massive hurdle. Sure the NPC AI are not brilliant, but they have a certain spontaneous and random attack pattern that could prove difficult to handle under large numbers.
After the initial Alpha they simply would keep adding well thought out elements to challenge and keep the player having fun. Personally, if I had the knowledge and know how, I would try to do it on my own, just so people could at least try it. But alas, I am stupid.

 

[T r i s t a n]

Well here it is! Proof that PVE is possible!

 

[Plasma]

I think that "horde" mode for co-op could be quite interesting (waves, like mass effect 3 multiplayer), even with current AI, if waves themselves would be hard enough. At the same time, I don't see that happening in foreseeable future.

Yeh that would be the best way to do it, something like Mass Effect, round based with waves of enemies and every now and again an objective thrown in.

 

[T r i s t a n]

Yeh that would be the best way to do it, something like Mass Effect, round based with waves of enemies and every now and again an objective thrown in.

You being part of the Movie Battles II Team, I would love to hear your thoughts on the probability of a MBII PVE aspect being introduced in the future, or even speculation as to why not.