Mandolorian needs a nerf. Here's why

Do you think Mando needs a nerf?


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GoodOl'Ben

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I feel that Mandalorians are in the perfect spot for most part.

Many rocket counters were already listed by @KaniganTheMando very well. These are the moments where the targeted player has a chance to show skill through clutch reflexes and good on-the-fly decision-making. I'd also like to point out that a good strategy here is to run in the face of the mandalorian while gunning. This will prompt them to either suicide or try to only hit you. To become the ultimate zen master you must learn to accept defeat if it grants your team a victory.

Even the EE3 sniper mode balance argument is somewhat hard to pinpoint. It generally requires two successful shots to kill someone assuming no headshot, which to me feels acceptable. Any balance tweaks here would have to be done with pinpoint precision where it only really affects 5-10% of the outcomes. Landing two sniper shots in a row is a skilled feat and requires a direct line of sight to the victim. In most cases the victim can affect the outcome here simply by not allowing the follow-up snipe to have a direct line of sight.
 
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I feel that Mandalorians are in the perfect spot for most part.

Many rocket counters were already listed by @KaniganTheMando very well. These are the moments where the targeted player has a chance to show skill through clutch reflexes and good on-the-fly decision-making. I'd also like to point out that a good strategy here is to run in the face of the mandalorian while gunning. This will prompt them to either suicide or try to only hit you. To become the ultimate zen master you must learn to accept defeat if it grants your team a victory.

Even the EE3 sniper mode balance argument is somewhat hard to pinpoint. It generally requires two successful shots to kill someone assuming no headshot, which to me feels acceptable. Any balance tweaks here would have to be done with pinpoint precision where it only really affects 5-10% of the outcomes. Landing two sniper shots in a row is a skilled feat and requires a direct line of sight to the victim. In most cases the victim can affect the outcome here simply by not allowing the follow-up snipe to have a direct line of sight.
I'm sorry but these counters are bs.
"Do an incredibly difficult thing that only works if the mando stands 10m away and doesn't use rocket mid flight as any good one would do"
is not a viable counter for something that either oneshots you or knocks you down with low hp so the mando just needs to touch you to finish you off.

And I'm real tired of people seeing EE3 as balanced as well. I like to compare it to proj in this case:
-It is true that EE3 does less damage but that doesn't matter AT ALL, reb classes are way easier to kill with a sniper than imp classes. Mostly because they have less shield(only clone is tanky when it comes to getting sniped because of how important the dmg reduction on the shield is)

-EE3 oneshots Heros with armor 2 with chestshots, Proj doesn't oneshot Mandos with armor 2 on chestshots because how op shield is.
(Mando 75,Hero 45)

-The fucking mobility on ee3 is insane, with proj you take a risk popsniping because your movementspeed debuff is so huge. Mando says fuck it and has no debuff whatsoever can even snipe while jumping and that rather accurate. And can fly away while reloading(Hero is stuck in the animation and can't even dash)
Not to mention that he can shoot around 7 more shots after 2 snipes, which ALSO do more damage than E11 for example.

-Im not 100% on this one but the reload on EE3 seems around the same or less as the proj as well.
 

Starushka

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That does not mean Mando is overpowered, more like hero is undernerfed.
 

GoodOl'Ben

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That does not mean Mando is overpowered, more like hero is undernerfed.
Essentially this. Can't talk general balance when the fault may be in a single match-up that should be looked at.

I would argue that Dash is a good counter to rockets. Projectile Rifle is good against jetpacks and Dodge is tremendous against EE3. They're tools that have very powerful impact on restricting or mitigating a Mandalorian's toolkit.

The imbalance of power in some scenarios is what creates tension for both parties. Whether there is a scenario where the imbalance is too heavy and results in unfun experiences is something that needs to be pinpointed.
 
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One last thing i want to say about EE-3 (I'll probably change my mind on this next month).
EE-3 pop-up sniping on short-mid range is among the lowest risk level of all mb2 abilities, has lots of resources (shot count), is kinda easy in a game mostly without hitscan weapons and even if some shots don't instantly kill your target the fight is decided, when you hit once and don't mess up afterwards or are low yourself. Now when i take those 4 measurements and look for abilities with similar ratios in other classes the few things that i find i would nerf, too.

Don't judge EE-3 by it's long range capabilities you shouldn't even snipe long range, it's a waste of ammo in it's current state.
 
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Tempest

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I feel that Mandalorians are in the perfect spot for most part.
I'd also like to point out that a good strategy here is to run in the face of the mandalorian while gunning. This will prompt them to either suicide or try to only hit you. To become the ultimate zen master you must learn to accept defeat if it grants your team a victory.
Why should the counter to something be "die or try and take them with you while you die"?
 

Stassin

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Why should the counter to something be "die or try and take them with you while you die"?
Maybe because it isn't. Maybe the counter is rather to snipe him far before he has a chance to get close, or push the rocket, or use a frag nade when he rockets. Or better yet, shoot him well enough with a standard gun that he dies before the rocket is even launched, that can happen when you're talking about a good gunner - even mandos die fast when you land headshots, and in the short window of actually launching the rocket, you can actually land 2 or more headshots depending on your rate of fire, the same applies even more frequently to ARCs launching rockets.

I'm not even saying that rocket is fun, or even balanced because it's so easy to use, just developing the argument because it was severely lacking.
 

Lessen

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Maybe because it isn't. Maybe the counter is rather to snipe him far before he has a chance to get close, or push the rocket, or use a frag nade when he rockets. Or better yet, shoot him well enough with a standard gun that he dies before the rocket is even launched, that can happen when you're talking about a good gunner - even mandos die fast when you land headshots, and in the short window of actually launching the rocket, you can actually land 2 or more headshots depending on your rate of fire, the same applies even more frequently to ARCs launching rockets.

I'm not even saying that rocket is fun, or even balanced because it's so easy to use, just developing the argument because it was severely lacking.
"Be Soldier" is also something of a rocket counter. It can only 1/3 kill you, at worst! :D
 

GoodOl'Ben

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Why should the counter to something be "die or try and take them with you while you die"?
You already let a Mandalorian with a rocket still remaining get close to you. You already played like crap. It's time for damage control.

From my experience, you survive most of the time with this strategy. Especially with the classes that should "struggle" the most versus rockets (Hero, ARC) due their good relocation tools. You often even survive to the point where you get up quicker than the Mandalorian. This effectively gives you free reign for a second while the low HP mando is still getting back up.

Did you run head-first at DOTF main? You accepted the risk of getting dive-bombed. Did you engage a Mandalorian at medium range when he's still high HP with no cover? You accepted the risk of getting panic-rocketed while being unable to shut the rocket down.

At the end of the day this is a twitch-based game where you win some and lose some. The quicker you accept that a sequence of events leads to your loss, you'll find key elements in your play that lead to your loss that happened several seconds before that one seemingly unbeatable thing.

Situations where the rocket is TRULY powerful generally involve forced engagement from the victim:
  • Mando is a defender, entrenched behind cover and minimal flanking opportunities
  • Mando is waiting behind a door without making a single sound
  • Mando and victim are fighting close quarters and Mando has high HP
  • Victim's escape ability is on cooldown
These issues can be mitigated through flanks, baits, carefulness and considering different methods of engagement.

Although the Mandalorian carries the potential for total destruction, the success often hinges on poor responses and judgement from the targets.

Whether the rocket's base damage could be dropped by 10-20 units to make survival easier for less capable players can be considered. I feel that the Mando rocket is borderline a waste against anyone capable as is, because they won't be in that position or will still manage to mitigate the effect to a degree where it's mutual assured destruction. As such the impact of the rocket should be strong so it still carries importance at higher levels. Diluting this impact too much makes it utterly worthless.
 
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What are you talking about? If it needs something - it's a buff.
Mando is a weak class . Only deka is a more useless now.
 

Tylenol

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Essentially this. Can't talk general balance when the fault may be in a single match-up that should be looked at.

I would argue that Dash is a good counter to rockets. Projectile Rifle is good against jetpacks and Dodge is tremendous against EE3. They're tools that have very powerful impact on restricting or mitigating a Mandalorian's toolkit.

The imbalance of power in some scenarios is what creates tension for both parties. Whether there is a scenario where the imbalance is too heavy and results in unfun experiences is something that needs to be pinpointed.
This and your previous argument are based on what would happen in a 1v1 situation in game, which means nothing when it comes to actually applying changes. Even if EE3 doesn't one shot kill, any large amount of damage is serious enough to cripple important team classes. Even if Mando doesn't get the kill, the rest of the team can still finish anyone off. Nobody can or will go frontline since they're just putting themselves at risk.

Apart from that and the rocket thing, you're spot on. Inequality (not imbalance) is what makes the gmae fun. If Rebs and Imps had mirrored classes, matches would be lame and boring. However Mando to me is a class really high level players choose since they just nullify any disadvantages with experience and exploits
 
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All one life gunners are balanced, the game was being worked on for 10 years.

Problem is flinch was rushed out and now they feel overtuned. Nothong more or less.
 

GoodOl'Ben

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Nobody can or will go frontline since they're just putting themselves at risk
To me frontline for offense ought to be reserved for those with proper toolkits to match this. In a pub game, if you are not comfortable with the law of Ace of Spades (You win some, you lose some, it's all the same to me), you ought to stand back and let the meaty characters soak up the initial focus fire. Jedi/Sith and multi-lifers should always be the first ones to take the brunt of the enemy's defense, if you are not comfortable with losing in the hectic initial fights.

Your regular pub game tends to skew any experiences in a big way. The defending team doesn't defend, the attacking team doesn't attack and generally most maps feature the rebels as the attacking force which further skews the sense of balance as often times most maps favor the defender and as a result imps might feel much stronger than they are.

Either way, I don't think Mandalorian needs any broad strokes. If there's a heavy consensus that the Mandalorian winrate is high, maybe we can look into it, but overall to me it feels like it's a class where a good player is good and a bad player is terribad. The current balance can't be too far off for the Mandalorian. A class that is feels like it gets bullied by the Mandalorian however might not be in a good place and could use a powerspike.
 
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