Macros and Binds

KarusBadders

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@Gargos I in no way cheat or have the ability to do so with the programs I use and believe the wild leap you made from scripts and binds to aimbot and wallhacks is shared in the community because of reckless behaviour such as swingblock scripts and freelook toggling which actually eliminate the need for some skill, unlike the novelties I make. While you do have a point in that I am preaching the use of these it is the whole purpose of this thread in which I did state my opinions on why I believe they can be good for the community above as well as my intention to discuss it further. I do respect your opinion and am grateful you took the time to comment, even though you disagree with me. If I could just ask in more detail why you think binds/macros are lame?
The majority of MBII's playerbase do not use macros. A small minority do.
Macro = binding an action that requires consecutive keystrokes to execute, in timely fashion, to one key.
If you don't see why that is a bad thing in this mod, I don't think anyone's explanation will help you understand.
 

LanceOfLonginus

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what are "complex moves" in mb2?
off the top of my head hero's dash exploit is about the most complex it gets (please dont remove this... again)
 
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The majority of MBII's playerbase do not use macros. A small minority do.
As with all things that require an initial input effort the majority of a population wont. However I watch the community grow slowly and newer players who are unfamiliar with the game could use tools like this to make the game more accessible leading to more enjoyment and player retention.
what are "complex moves" in mb2?
I play fast and loose with the term complex here, I am just referring to actions in the game I know the majority of players struggle to do, or simply cant. The red dfa cancel jump comes into mind as a perfect example.
If you don't see why that is a bad thing in this mod, I don't think anyone's explanation will help you understand.
To restate an earlier point I believe this game is more then timed button pressing and real skill will shine through regardless. I do see how some aspects of this timed button pressing can take away from the game (reckless behaviour) but that's a line we can decide on as a community that I and everyone who chooses to use these tools would respect ideally, of course this isn't a grantee for others but the more players are informed the easier it will be to spot and those special few who don't want to respect the game would of found these tools to exploit anyway.
An example I stumbled across was a player called Vaapad who used freelook toggle at his feet to increase his swing speed while yawing in duels. This is improper use for sure as his use of a tool led to an advantage in game (however minor but I did see him beating on newer players who had 0 clue as to what he was doing).
In this sense I agree with you 100% however I wouldn't have noticed what he was doing if it wasn't for my own experimenting with binds i.e anyone who uses freelook toggling shakes like a chihuahua while its on.
 

Puppytine

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@Kwinto Technicalities. Why do you think "wait" command was removed from scripting? The use of third party programs to make macros is just going around it.
/wait command isn't really removed, it's just disabled when used from console. But it's still fully working in .cfg files.
But you have to keep in mind that /wait command in Movie Battles is the very same /wait command for Jedi Academy, and that command does freeze user input during its duration, so you're literally defenseless while /wait is executing; can't move, can't shoot, can't swing, can't do anything.
And there is even no way to set an exact execution time for /wait: it does treat its argument as number of frames, not milliseconds, therefore an effect from this command depends on performance of your hardware.

So, I don't really see those binds as a "cheating", because of how limited .cfg features are, and because this is a built-in game mechanic, not an external application.
In my opinion, even some model and sound replacements would give more game advantage, like proj rifle with loader volume or simplified but more visually distinctive models.
This is the same with macros since if you bind complex moves to one key it means you will never mess up and it is always executed perfectly except for timing the move. Even pros mess up some complex moves. I do not really see the difference between macros and wallhack there.
By this logic, too many things can be labeled as "cheating", like having better mouse, better PC, better internet, any non-default keybinds and more time to play.
 

Noob

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i have a 144hz monitor... this means i cheat at duels
 

Spaghetti

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By this logic, too many things can be labeled as "cheating", like having better mouse, better PC, better internet, any non-default keybinds and more time to play.
Having better quality hardware is fundamentally different to using external software to automate some aspect of gameplay. If this isn't clear to you then please stop for a moment and think about the distinction.

At best, better hardware or good Internet connectivity would allow a player to play to the best of their ability (so bad hardware can be a hindrance, and good hardware is removing that handicap).

External software automating some gameplay aspect (from the trivial to execute DFA to a full blown aimbot) is replacing the human for that bit of gameplay. It's analogous to having a seasoned player help you play the game (yes, you have to tell the "player" when to help, but they'll do it perfectly every time).

Obviously a macro automating a speed lunge isn't as disruptive to gameplay or as unfair as an aimbot, but it's still on the same spectrum. Artificial assistance. The common advocate's argument (which I think has already been said here) is that since everyone could use these types of tools, it's still fair. That's terribly flawed though as normalizing artificial assistance means everyone is forced to do it if they don't want to be at a disadvantage. It fundamentally changes how the game plays and definitely not toward making it more fun.

This isn't an MMO where you at least could have the rationale of automating tedious repetitive actions while grinding loot or levels. It's a skill based FPS/TPS. Learn to play like everyone else.
 

Puppytine

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Having better quality hardware is fundamentally different to using external software to automate some aspect of gameplay.
Not sure how it's different, if agreed to ditch a common sense for a second and compare it only by very formal logic.
Both things aren't related to skill.
Both things increase your results in game.
When only one side does have it, it drastically reduces chances of other player to win.

Yes, getting common sense back we can say that better hardware is how game is supposed to be played (more or less), and external software is a pure cheating.
But binds in config files are neither external programs nor something creators of the game didn't added to JKA on purpose -- it's a built-in feature.
They also have no significant impact on resulting differences for gameplay. Their power is limited. Binds will not make your opponents visible, they will not automatically kill them, they won't put you into in the right position to avoid incoming attacks etc.

That's basically about where each of us draws a line between cheating and customizing -- you call it similar to using external software, I would say it's just advandced keyboard bindinds (like nobody uses default layout anyway, we all change it according to our preferences).
 

Spaghetti

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Not sure how it's different, if agreed to ditch a common sense for a second and compare it only by very formal logic.
Both things aren't related to skill.
Both things increase your results in game.
When only one side does have it, it drastically reduces chances of other player to win.
Well yeah, if you assume your premise that hardware "increases your results in game", but it doesn't. Poor hardware is a disadvantage. Once you reach the point of running the game as intended (something most PCs from the past 7 years can do easily), the impact of better hardware is insignificant to gameplay.

If you had a science fiction style brain-computer interface and that was a standard PC input (so you controlled the game by thinking rather than needing to use your hands), that would then be the "ideal" state for computer hardware and best way of exposing an individual's skill. Someone with a keyboard and mouse would then be at a disadvantage (similar to how using a trackpad instead of a mouse would be a disadvantage today).

Put another way, it's about being skill based. The best PC in the world won't improve your skill at the game. It can only allow you to express that skill by getting out of the way as much as possible. A bad PC will interfere with your perception and control. The hypothetical with the brain-computer interface isn't a problem because it isn't granting a new advantage - it's simply allowing better control, the player is still doing all the "work" of controlling their character.

But binds in config files are neither external programs nor something creators of the game didn't added to JKA on purpose -- it's a built-in feature.
They also have no significant impact on resulting differences for gameplay. Their power is limited. Binds will not make your opponents visible, they will not automatically kill them, they won't put you into in the right position to avoid incoming attacks etc.

That's basically about where each of us draws a line between cheating and customizing -- you call it similar to using external software, I would say it's just advandced keyboard bindinds (like nobody uses default layout anyway, we all change it according to our preferences).
Just because it's a built-in feature doesn't mean it can't be misused in a way that was not intended. Changing saber colors is a feature. Using a script to change colors very quickly (which can cause lag for other clients) was never intended and should be discouraged.
 
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