Future(s) of Sabering: Style rework

Stassin

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Along with Tempest's improvements of sabering mechanics such as PB combo-break, perfect parries or nudge toggle, i would like to propose a revamp of the styles and their roles for better diversity, because in the current system even though we've tried to differentiate styles with perks and such, some of them still very much feel like duplicates.

The core reason behind what i'm proposing is that blue/yellow/red still remain the "basic" styles that have the best animations (most beautiful) and the best coherence because their roles are inherently clear (no perks needed to differentiate them), giving the best gameplay experience by themselves.

So i want to keep blue/yellow/red as basic styles, while giving the role of "specialized" styles to cyan/purple/duals/staff.

An example of implications would be as follows:

Blue/Yellow/Red would still cost 8 points, while Cyan/Purple/Duals/Staff would now cost 16 points.

Blue
No longer has perks. AP/BP values are kept as they are.

Yellow
No longer has perks. AP/BP values are kept as they are.

Red
No longer has perks. AP value possibly increased from 15 to 16 to compensate for the loss of its perk.

Cyan
Light defense specialist. Strong versus light gunner classes.
AP/BP values are kept as they are.
Sabering perk now relies on performing a successful perfect parry (as Tempest is suggesting). Effect of the perk is to stagger the opponent (if he is using a style other than cyan).
Perk versus guns added. Synergy with Saber Deflect. Allows to deflect automatically by simply holding attack while blocking (instead of tapping attack). With saber deflect level 0, no perk. Saber deflect level 1, Cyan is able to deflect 1 shot every 750ms, cannot deflect at close range. Saber deflect level 2, Cyan is able to deflect 1 shot every 500ms, can deflect at close range. Saber deflect level 3, Cyan is able to deflect 1 shot every 250ms, can deflect at close range.
Contrary to the normal saber deflect, there is no cost for holding attack.

(For reference, the current usual saber deflect is as follows: level 1, deflects by tapping attack, every tap costs 5 FP, cannot deflect at close range, the cooldown between taps which can result in a deflect is 200ms. Level 2, same as level 1 but a tap costs 3 FP and can deflect at close range. Level 3, a tap costs 1 FP.)

Cyan would thus have good defense in saber vs saber due to being able to repel attacks, giving some breathing room to run or opening up the careless opponent for a teammate to snipe him. Cyan, paired with Saber Deflect, would also be strong against light classes in saber vs gun, due to being able to deflect at them more easily to weaken their HP and then finish them with a saber swing (which still does weak damage like blue style, i.e. 120 HP).

Purple
Heavy offense specialist. Strong versus heavy gunner classes.
AP/BP values are kept as they are.
Sabering perk remains the same: +1 ACM on a full Perfect Block.
Perk versus guns added. Q3, i.e. ability to automatically deflect shots while attacking without holding block. Q3 can be disabled for a swing by holding class special 1 during this swing. Q3 has good synergy with Saber Defense 3 because Saber Defense 3 removes the extra FP drain on shots that are blocked while attacking.

Purple would thus be a good offensive style in saber vs saber due to being able to power up very quickly with the help of well-placed PBs (same as currently, except other styles like yellow would no longer have perks !). Purple, paired with Saber Defense 3, would also be stronger than average against heavy classes like SBDs or Wookiees thanks to Q3.


Duals
Offense and damage specialist.
AP/BP values are kept as they are.
Sabering perk is as Tempest suggests: 0.75x BP drain on chained consecutive swings, rather than the current 0.5x.
Perk versus guns added simply in the form of increased damage. Duals and Staff both currently deal 260 damage per swing (yellow 240, blue/cyan 120, purple 360, red 450), here Duals' damage would be increased to 450 per swing ("realistically" accounting for the character wielding two blades).

With its quick swings and very quick chains, Duals would benefit more from chains for offense in saber vs saber, enabling to kill opponents faster than other styles. Similarly, in saber vs gun, Duals would be a good option against heavier classes (no Q3 like purple, but great damage and much faster swings).


Staff
Defense and specialist of being outnumbered.
AP/BP values are kept as they are.
Sabering perk and open mode perk would both be the same thing: an vast arc of defense compared to other styles, greatly diminishing risks against backwhacks or backshots. Currently, styles have a 215° blocking arc against sabers and 180° against guns (with the exception of duals and staff which currently have 258° and 240° respectively). Now, the Staff blocking arc would be 300° against sabers and 270° against guns.

Staff would thus be a great defensive style overall and the very best option when outnumbered, whether it be against saberists or gunners.




Now, it's time to answer the critical point which was raised the last time mb2 had a saber vs gun perk system, and one of the reasons it was removed: that gunners be able to tell which style they are up against when a saberist. The issue was that the running animations are the same for all single-blade styles, thus making it impossible to distinguish between them (only duals and staff could be distinguished).

With this perk system, blue/yellow/red are already out of the question since they have no perks, and duals/staff already do not have this problem. Which only leaves purple and cyan. There aren't many options to solve this problem, and one i thought of would be to give purple the same running animations as duals, and cyan the same running animations as staff. Thus in open mode, you would be able to tell if a saberist has purple or cyan because they would have a single-blade saber yet the same animations as what a staff-user or a duals-user would usually have. This unfortunately excludes backwards running animations since those are hopelessly all the same for all styles. But it's already a great improvement compared to the previous perk system especially since the perks i'm proposing here are much, much more balanced and coherent (they aren't some "magically increased FP regen", but rather something that can be directly linked to what the characater is focusing on when it comes to wielding his blade: focus on different possibilities of projectile deflection, damage-dealing etc.).

(Note: in FA, since some characters are given staff/white or duals/green style even though they're wielding a single-bladed saber, with these changes one would no longer be able to tell whether they're using white/green or cyan/purple; but that's a minor inconvenience).
 
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kvinto

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An example of implications would be as follows:

Blue/Yellow/Red would still cost 8 points, while Cyan/Purple/Duals/Staff would now cost 16 points. - I don't like the idea of making styles better and making them cost more. Why would you use other styles in duels if the more expensive ones are just better?(except staff).


Cyan
Light defense specialist. Strong versus light gunner classes.
AP/BP values are kept as they are.
Sabering perk now relies on performing a successful perfect parry (as Tempest is suggesting). Effect of the perk is to stagger the opponent (if he is using a style other than cyan). - Literally red perk but 10 times faster and random. Cyan will still be combo spam style.
Perk versus guns added. Synergy with Saber Deflect. Allows to deflect automatically by simply holding attack while blocking (instead of tapping attack). With saber deflect level 0, no perk. Saber deflect level 1, Cyan is able to deflect 1 shot every 750ms, cannot deflect at close range. Saber deflect level 2, Cyan is able to deflect 1 shot every 500ms, can deflect at close range. Saber deflect level 3, Cyan is able to deflect 1 shot every 250ms, can deflect at close range.
Contrary to the normal saber deflect, there is no cost for holding attack.- That's... useless

Purple
Heavy offense specialist. Strong versus heavy gunner classes.
AP/BP values are kept as they are.
Sabering perk remains the same: +1 ACM on a full Perfect Block. - The most cancerous perk right after pre 1.4 cyan. Not so horrible after adding nudge but still.
Perk versus guns added. Q3, i.e. ability to automatically deflect shots while attacking without holding block. Q3 can be disabled for a swing by holding class special 1 during this swing. Q3 has good synergy with Saber Defense 3 because Saber Defense 3 removes the extra FP drain on shots that are blocked while attacking. - Good for newbies but what's the point of giving it to purple if that newbie will get shot 10 times before he hits the gunner beacuse of how slow purple is.


Duals
Offense and damage specialist.
AP/BP values are kept as they are.
Sabering perk is as Tempest suggests: 0.75x BP drain on chained consecutive swings, rather than the current 0.5x. - Same as cyan. Combo spam.
Perk versus guns added simply in the form of increased damage. Duals and Staff both currently deal 260 damage per swing (yellow 240, blue/cyan 120, purple 360, red 450), here Duals' damage would be increased to 450 per swing ("realistically" accounting for the character wielding two blades). - That's cool.

With its quick swings and very quick chains, Duals would benefit more from chains for offense in saber vs saber, enabling to kill opponents faster than other styles. Similarly, in saber vs gun, Duals would be a good option against heavier classes (no Q3 like purple, but great damage and much faster swings).


Staff
Defense and specialist of being outnumbered.
AP/BP values are kept as they are.
Sabering perk and open mode perk would both be the same thing: an vast arc of defense compared to other styles, greatly diminishing risks against backwhacks or backshots. Currently, styles have a 215° blocking arc against sabers and 180° against guns (with the exception of duals and staff which currently have 258° and 240° respectively). Now, the Staff blocking arc would be 320° against sabers and 300° against guns. - Not worth 16 points. Literally no1 will use it in duels beacuse yellow is just better.

Staff would thus be a great defensive style overall and the very best option when outnumbered, whether it be against saberists or gunners. - Sounds cool on paper but that's not how 1vX works. You don't run into 10 enemies, you try to have them all in front of you so that perk is kinda pointless except when running away from gunners. Current staff mblock perk is actually way better to 1vX, way more fun and it requires you to do something instead of giving you a passive bonus.




Now, it's time to answer the critical point which was raised the last time mb2 had a saber vs gun perk system, and one of the reasons it was removed: that gunners be able to tell which style they are up against when a saberist. The issue was that the running animations are the same for all single-blade styles, thus making it impossible to distinguish between them (only duals and staff could be distinguished).

With this perk system, blue/yellow/red are already out of the question since they have no perks, and duals/staff already do not have this problem. Which only leaves purple and cyan. There aren't many options to solve this problem, and one i thought of would be to give purple the same running animations as duals, and cyan the same running animations as staff. Thus in open mode, you would be able to tell if a saberist has purple or cyan because they would have a single-blade saber yet the same animations as what a staff-user or a duals-user would usually have. - That would look amazingly stupid basing on how it looks in FA.
 
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I feel like removing these perks from the normal standard saber styles, will negatively impact FA because usually the default classes will have the normal saber styles and the more "better" classes usually have the special saber styles.

But no one cares about FA so my problem is void.
 

Noob

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I like how you are moving cyan/purple in the direction of fighting gunners instead of sabers. :)
 
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I am glad that cyan will be moved more to gun vs saber, because in this patch cyan is too OP.Cyan has only 2 swings in combo, but the delay between combos very short, thus, if you pblock a hit to break the combo, he will continue spamming.Fast attack animation == harder to react, and good defence makes hard to spam user of that style.
 
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I am glad that cyan will be moved more to gun vs saber, because in this patch cyan is too OP.Cyan has only 2 swings in combo, but the delay between combos very short, thus, if you pblock a hit to break the combo, he will continue spamming.Fast attack animation == harder to react, and good defence makes hard to spam user of that style.
you're thinking of blue dude
 

Preston

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Interesting, not sure how I feel about it. But the less cyan and purple that I have to deal with in dueling the better
 
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One thing which bothers me after reading this a second time. Do you mean with 16 point. Lv1 (8) - Lv2 (16) - Lv3 (?)
Sounds a bit crazy hope i missunderstood.
Lv1 (8) - Lv2 (6) - Lv3 (2) would be reasonable. So blue would be 8 points, cyan 6 and both styles 2.
Its hard to spend points even right now, this +2 on yellow messed my builds up and i always could freak out if i have 2 useless points i cant spend, but thats my problem.^^
 

Stassin

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One thing which bothers me after reading this a second time. Do you mean with 16 point. Lv1 (8) - Lv2 (16) - Lv3 (?)
Sounds a bit crazy hope i missunderstood.
Lv1 (8) - Lv2 (6) - Lv3 (2) would be reasonable. So blue would be 8 points, cyan 6 and both styles 2.
Its hard to spend points even right now, this +2 on yellow messed my builds up and i always could freak out if i have 2 useless points i cant spend, but thats my problem.^^
It would be 8/8/6. The saber vs gun perks i'm proposing are strong especially for cyan/purple.
 
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It would be 8/8/6. The saber vs gun perks i'm proposing are strong especially for cyan/purple.

Expensive, but ok.
You mentioned that you change some running styles, like in FA.
Is there a possibility you can/would change the attack animation of cyan or purple to onehanded staff stlye, i saw it in FA it looked really cool.^^ ( Im more for purple, because this slow swing with one hand looks weird.)
Of course without the staff special moves. The purple specialmove looks awesome.
 
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Hmm atleast test it out! Removing major things as the perks will change the styles completely and I bet some styles would need some valueadjusting in order to compensate for that.
 

Stassin

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Actually as it stands now the saber vs saber perks are not going to be removed but changed as per Tempest's ideas. But i'll try to make sure that blue/yellow/red get slightly weaker ones.

And, i want to try out blocking animations on saber/saber collisions, even if it's just for 1 patch.
 

Starushka

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@Stassin While you dealing with saber deflect maybe it's about time to improve it a bit. Would like to have some mechanic to discourage people mindlessly spam M1.
Proposal:
When player hit button before 200ms cooldown went off - he will not be able to deflect blaster shots for about 500ms and the next shot during that time will trigger a very small stagger-like animation (just like in single player with saber defense 1). During stagger (which should be fairly quick) the player can be shot through defenses. In that case i think we can put away FP cost for each use, as risk of being shot during stagger is already a good motivation not to spam M1.
For that mechanic the cooldown must be visible on player HUD (something around crosshair for example).
 

Stassin

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Well, actually, spamming M1 too fast is useless currently, since the cooldown is 200ms you only have to spam it about 5 times per second to get optimal results, spamming it faster may even be detrimental.

I like the idea behind this proposal alot because it goes in the direction of "making deflect the primary way for jedi to defeat gunners", since it introduces a way for jedi to be hurt even when blocking - and thus introduces the idea of jedi "trading HP" just like gunners trade HP in gun vs gun.

Though for this to become balanced and really make deflect the primary way for jedi to fight gunners, some other things would need to change first; saber swings against gunners would need to be nerfed even far more than they currently are with flinch, so that jedi really use deflect most of the time. And deflect would of course need to be buffed alot, primarily so that you don't run out of FP too quickly at close range, and at the same time nerfed to introduce ways for gunners to drain the jedi's HP when they are deflecting, which is where your proposal could be a possibility; though with this proposal, jedi would just need to remember not to spam too fast to negate any HP drain so that wouldn't be fair for the gunner.

I don't know if we even want to go in this direction. But with the current meta, i think this proposal isn't too good because it nerfs deflect a bit, and deflect already isn't strong and not used that often (compared to close range saber swings).
 

Lessen

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Is deflect considered weak? I was under the impression it was just considered boring. As a gunner, when I meet a D3 player I feel like I lose all my options.

Although... can a force user push immediately after deflecting? If they can, then they can kill me for dodging their deflects, meaning I effectively can't attack them. But if they can't then I can run for a moment after each deflect.
 
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