Future(s) of Sabering [Part 2]

[Tempest]

So, I've continued tweaking my own thoughts for the system, read through everything you guys have posted in Part 1, and even gone back and read through the entire 1.4 Open Beta Feedback thread (among many other threads). Been interesting to see the ideas/feedback everyone had then and I even found some ideas that I think I missed at some point which I've noted down for consideration.

So, that said, here's what I've got for you guys. Given this is basically a copypaste from a text file, things that were added in and haven't been thought through/adjusted will probably retain ? on them.

Color code:
√ = Tested to be working/finalized.
Green = Ready to be tested
Yellow = Work in progress
Orange = Planned but not working on it yet
No color = up in the air/awaiting further discussion

Changes:

Spoiler: Overall

General

• Can now backswing on demand for 10-15 FP (Input = use + back + attack)
• Parry indicator added on crosshair and BP bar. Only Showing indicator for Perfect Parry
• Indicator for successful Mblock (for swingblock stuff)
• Repeated swings adjusted
  
• Flinch now based on rate of fire of weapon as well as the amount of FP that is drained per shot (some kind of table of what does what and when TBA)
• Animation tweaks down the line (to differentiate between cyan and purple more easily)

Experimental:

• Nudge now a toggle
  
• PB angles tweaked slightly for diagonals (also need to make sure pb zones don't overlap at all if it continues to be a problem..)
• Rewording slap change to be less confusing: Slap vs gunners will remain the same. Slap will now cause the current health drain when tapped/held very shortly. If "charged", you will be able to mini-stagger an opponent (for an increased cooldown). If hit while not blocking, they will still fall regardless of short/charged slap. This essentially means that this change will only affect slap vs saberists that are (swing)blocking.
• Reduced damage reduction to 10% instead of 20%? Depends on flinch stuff
  
• If you have ___ ACM advantage and land a body hit on a target (with less than half of your current BP?), target will have a short movement speed reduction and/or you gain a short movement speed increase
  
• Separating some things between duel/open mode?

Saber Drains/Multipliers (not changing, just confirming/listing for people to see; green is confirmed):

• Running, not swingblocking: 1.0x [√]
• Walking, not swingblocking: 1.1x [√]
• Walking, swingblocking: 1.0x [√]
• Hit while running, full swing: 1.2x
• Hit while running, counter swing: 1.2x
• Hit while crouching: 1.5x
  
• Perfect block counter: 1.2x or BP drain of body hit equivalent of defender's style?

Spoiler: Mechanics

Perfect Block (PB)

• No damage from attacker [√]
• Allows for faster counter [√]
• If done against a non-swingblock, target will not be able to continue chaining swingsCombo breaking moved to Mblock
• PB zone adjusted for when opponent isn't facing you

Flinch/Stagger

• No longer applies to special moves
• Saber-out jumping kicks now mini-stagger regardless of blocking

Parrying

• Lack of indicator is basically the indicator that a non-perfect parry happened.
• Perfect Parry (just testing to see how it is with all styles first; if it doesn't work out, it's going back to Cyan)
  
  
  • Blue indicator
    
  • Done by matching the incoming swing (quadrant-wise) with the matching outgoing swing or direct opposite direction and side swing (i.e. incoming top left could be perfect parried by an outgoing backward + left; incoming WA vs outgoing SA)
  • Will stop both saberist's swing chain (unless using Cyan).

Feint

• Changed back to not needing feint for red style hops

Manual Block (Mblock)

• Allows for combo-breaking vs swingblock.
  
• If you successfully Mblock vs a swingblock, you will stop the attacker from being able to continue swinging and deal 6 BP damage to them (except for Red).
  
• If you fail your Mblock (vs any swing), you take BP damage (4 vs Fast styles, 6 vs Medium styles (and Purple), and 8 vs Red).

Counter

• PB counters can no longer have counters performed off of them?

ACC/ACM

• Same rules for drains/gains
• Every +2 of ACM = 1 extra BP damage added to parry drain
  
• Change damage multiplier to be tied to per style?

Nudge

• Now only happens if you get interrupted (aka if you hit at start of swing -> lets you have the chance to do a half swing/counter after being interrupted)

Spoiler: Styles

Wanted to avoid vagueness on offense/defense changes so the values are here as well.

Fast Styles​

Cyan

• Offense value remains unchanged
  
• Defense value lowered from 58->57
• Swing limit lowered to 4

Perk:
- From: 8 BP drain on PB; Removal complete.
- To: Doesn't get stopped from continuing swings after a Perfect Parry

Blue

• Offense value decreased from 8->7
  
• Defense value remains unchanged
• Loses 1 ACC when PB'd

Perk:
- From: 2x faster Force Focus on targets, 2x longer on self (this is being moved to force stuff which will be detailed in another thread); Removal complete.
- To: 6 BP drained from attackers on PB (compared to Cyan's 8 on live) [√]

Medium Styles​

Yellow

• Offense value decreased from 12->11
  
• Defense value unchanged

Perk:
- From: -1 ACM to attackers on PB, -2 vs fast styles Removal complete.
- To: Doesn't suffer from Mblock BP drain on failing. There's an innate cooldown to being able to successfully Mblock so it wouldn't be spammable.

Staff

• Offense value unchanged
  
• Defense value decreased unchanged
  
• Gotta make sure staff trying to mblock on a pblock isn't janky
• Possibly let Staff get saber throw (javelin throws anyone?)

Perk:
- From: Doesn't require PB to successfully Mblock (including correct quadrant...) and staggers on successful Mblock
- To: Doesn't require a PB to be succesful (correct quadrant though still) OR gives +1 ACM if it IS done on a PB OR replace yellow's current perk and give to staff?
- To: Still being looked at (was a typo here for what had been added/moved); Mblock can now be done without a PB if the quadrant for the incoming swing is correct. Stagger functionality remains the same.

Duals

• Offense value remains the same at 10 (keeping this even/slightly lower than yellow because of swing count for now)
• Defense value decreased from 54->53
• Something something upgraded slap/special 2 + use moves?
• Stabs cost 1? ACM to use or __ BP if no ACM built up (in addition to 30 FP)?

Perk:
- From: 8 BP drain on successful special moves. Removal complete
- To: Consecutive hits grant +1 ACM (still reduced damage) if done after a half swing
- To: Consecutive swings are 0.75x damage instead of 0.5x

Heavy Styles​

Red

• Offense value increased from 15->17 (was 20 in 1.3 for the record)
• Defense value remains unchanged
  
• No BP drain from being Mblocked on a swingblock
  
• PB counter = stagger?

Perk:
- From: Third swing causes stagger
- To: Full swing from idle will stagger if not PB'd OR increase duration back to 1.3 duration?
- To: Still readjusting.
Purple

• Offense value remains unchanged
  
• Defense value remains unchanged

Perk
- From: +1 ACC on PB
- To: Leaving it as is for now to see how it plays with the other changes.

So there you have it. I am writing follow-ups to the things I left considered as up in the air but wanted to let people start reading through things before I got through with that. I know some things could possibly (over)complicate some aspects but this isn't an all or nothing with possibilities. To further expand on what's in the air (by section):
Overall
1) Repeated swings
Quite likely going to change these to make it so you can only do one repeated swing in a row or just making it a middle-ground to how it used to be (so that it would be that you have to change what swing you do, wouldn't be locked into combo strings though)
2) Perfect block stuff
- Top-down diagonal zones seem off compared to down-up but I'm going to check and verify on this.
3) Damage reduction..reduction
- Once flinch gets tweaked to not be so binary, I think it might be worth looking at lowering the damage reduction to make up for it being more consistent

Mechanics
1) PB stuff
- I'd like to keep the no damage (as it's always been) and faster counter as the reward for doing it properly
- I think changing the combo stopping to just a non-swingblock would make it less binary
- Other thoughts are just things I picked up from reading back in other threads for people to consider
2) Perfect Parry
- I wanted to implement a more active way of being able to stop combos without it being a solely defensive concept
3) Counters
- I'm not entirely sure about the PB counters being unable to be performed after, but this is mostly in the case that PB stopping combos stays in the system
ACC/ACM
- Just leaving these thoughts out in the air
4) Nudge
- I think it has a purpose but the current way it's done hasn't really been ENJOYED by basically anyone since it was put in

Styles
Mostly just going to wait and see what people think about things for these.

P.S. This doesn't mean saber vs gunner perks aren't going to happen. There just wasn't much said about how to make them more fair (aka not super subtle random bonuses to styles) and getting flinch to be less binary is a good start regardless.

 

[Bybo4ka]

I do like that idea! What you say I find it very true! But I also do believe that slaps and kicks need some slight adjustement to be more conform to what it should be really like... I dont like the idea of someone just slapping and kicking at my plasma blade literally constantly with absolutely no risk at all! My ideal would be a combination of both our ideas

If you want to increase saber duel range, then the whole system of sabering has to be changed in some way. Because, if enemy close to you, its harder to pblock for him. But if you increase duel range, there will be a lot of spinners and shadowswingers only, because any other hits will be PBlocked mostly.
PBlock itself wont be needed that much anymore, there would be more footwork and dodging.

 

[SK5]

God no, please dont make nudge a server toggle feature ;_;

 

[AaronAaron]

God no, please dont make nudge a server toggle feature ;_;

I doubt it will. It will probably just be something you can turn on and off by yourself.

 

[kvinto]

I doubt it will. It will probably just be something you can turn on and off by yourself.

So what's the point of turning it off if you just lose a free halfswing?

 

[Stassin]

So what's the point of turning it off if you just lose a free halfswing?

Nudge requires to learn its timing which can be pretty difficult for new players, so even though it does give an advantage in saber vs saber, that only applies to veterans; for new players it is actually harder to play with it than without.

In open mode, when you are close to a gunner and nudging, you can't use force powers for the duration of the nudge; this can be a disadvantage when you purposely run into gunners to scare them into running and then try to push/pull but you can't because nudge activated. Although, if you are very good and think of this, you could still purposely aim your saber away from the gunner when you are very close, so as not to activate nudge thus avoiding this problem.

Overall, i think the option of removing nudge is solely aimed at helping relatively new players/people not used to it. If we're talking veteran play, then it's pretty much better with nudge all the time.

 

[kvinto]

Nudge requires to learn its timing which can be pretty difficult for new players, so even though it does give an advantage in saber vs saber, that only applies to veterans; for new players it is actually harder to play with it than without.

In open mode, when you are close to a gunner and nudging, you can't use force powers for the duration of the nudge; this can be a disadvantage when you purposely run into gunners to scare them into running and then try to push/pull but you can't because nudge activated. Although, if you are very good and think of this, you could still purposely aim your saber away from the gunner when you are very close, so as not to activate nudge thus avoiding this problem.

Overall, i think the option of removing nudge is solely aimed at helping relatively new players/people not used to it. If we're talking veteran play, then it's pretty much better with nudge all the time.

I never actually had that problem vs gunners but thats a good point. And mehhhh i thought red gameplay is gonna change in duels but it still will probably be nudge spam and nothing more.

 

[SomeGuy]

If you want to increase saber duel range, then the whole system of sabering has to be changed in some way. Because, if enemy close to you, its harder to pblock for him. But if you increase duel range, there will be a lot of spinners and shadowswingers only, because any other hits will be PBlocked mostly.
PBlock itself wont be needed that much anymore, there would be more footwork and dodging.

Oh so you're saying duels would then be more movie like.... Honestly I think PBlock is bad. I understand the reasoning behind it, to reward the attentive defender, but it just promotes defensive play and prolongs duels. Also feels to me that it's devalues Mblock. Plus fights never happened like that in the movies.

I like the new emphasis on parrying, I think there should be more emphasis on footwork. Duels should be faster with lightning quick responses rather than attrition matches, in my mind.

Added bonus to minimum saber range is no need to deal with nudge. Unless someone could be that good at footwork to get close enough to get the nudge followup swing started and back away enough for it to be useful.

 

[Megatron (The Shredder)]

Would it make duels worse if BP drain on hits were scaled based on distance from the other player?

For example, when you're far enough to have your saber still hit the other player the BP drain on the receiving player is at it's maximum, while getting in close to your opponent will have BP drain less on the receiving player to make it relevant to keep your distance and use nudge to get in close and reduce the benefits of saber comboing with interrupts and reduced BP drains on hits.

 

[Bybo4ka]

Oh so you're saying duels would then be more movie like.... Honestly I think PBlock is bad. I understand the reasoning behind it, to reward the attentive defender, but it just promotes defensive play and prolongs duels. Also feels to me that it's devalues Mblock. Plus fights never happened like that in the movies.

I like the new emphasis on parrying, I think there should be more emphasis on footwork. Duels should be faster with lightning quick responses rather than attrition matches, in my mind.

I just said what is going to happen, i didnt said that its bad. Btw, it reminds me a JA, where footwork was one of the must have things. Maybe, (if dev's go crazy), to block a hit you have to PBlock him, otherwise- death.

 

[kvinto]

Spoiler

• Perfect Parry (just testing to see how it is with all styles first; if it doesn't work out, it's going back to Cyan)
  
  
  • Done by matching the incoming swing (quadrant-wise) with the matching outgoing swing or direct opposite direction and side swing (i.e. incoming top left could be perfect parried by an outgoing backward + left; incoming WA vs outgoing SA)
  • Will stop the attacker's swing chain (unless they have Cyan).

2) Perfect Parry
- I wanted to implement a more active way of being able to stop combos without it being a solely defensive concept
2)Perfect Parry
This won't be on just any parry. However, I was testing this with Cyan and it was hard to do on purpose (for matching the swings). I think the idea is good but I do plan to iron out anything like this 150% before letting it become a thing. An alternative to making it stop combos could be that it just makes you have to do a half swing if you want to continue (basically same condition for current countering).

So it's confirmed for 1.5?

 

[Tempest]

So what's the point of turning it off if you just lose a free halfswing?

Some prefer it. Some prefer not having it.

I never actually had that problem vs gunners but thats a good point. And mehhhh i thought red gameplay is gonna change in duels but it still will probably be nudge spam and nothing more.

Blue/Purple/Red are styles I'm trying to be very careful about tweaking (including their changes in regards to other things like perfect parry).

Would it make duels worse if BP drain on hits were scaled based on distance from the other player?

For example, when you're far enough to have your saber still hit the other player the BP drain on the receiving player is at it's maximum, while getting in close to your opponent will have BP drain less on the receiving player to make it relevant to keep your distance and use nudge to get in close and reduce the benefits of saber comboing with interrupts and reduced BP drains on hits.

It's an interesting idea and something I'll think over.

I just said what is going to happen, i didnt said that its bad. Btw, it reminds me a JA, where footwork was one of the must have things. Maybe, (if dev's go crazy), to block a hit you have to PBlock him, otherwise- death.

Yeah, no, lol. That'd be a bit too extreme.

Spoiler

• Perfect Parry (just testing to see how it is with all styles first; if it doesn't work out, it's going back to Cyan)
  
  
  • Done by matching the incoming swing (quadrant-wise) with the matching outgoing swing or direct opposite direction and side swing (i.e. incoming top left could be perfect parried by an outgoing backward + left; incoming WA vs outgoing SA)
  • Will stop the attacker's swing chain (unless they have Cyan).

2) Perfect Parry
- I wanted to implement a more active way of being able to stop combos without it being a solely defensive concept
2)Perfect Parry
This won't be on just any parry. However, I was testing this with Cyan and it was hard to do on purpose (for matching the swings). I think the idea is good but I do plan to iron out anything like this 150% before letting it become a thing. An alternative to making it stop combos could be that it just makes you have to do a half swing if you want to continue (basically same condition for current countering).

So it's confirmed for 1.5?

Not sure what version it'll be but perfect parry is going to be a thing, yes.

 

[Preston]

Nuh just remove nudge completly, the animations are just too bad

 

[kvinto]

Not sure what version it'll be but perfect parry is going to be a thing, yes.

 

[Szunti]

I think the problem is that basically the only thing you can control is being close to the opponent. You can't keep distance if they don't want and just run into you.

What if you could push them away on parry when they are close? Like what slap does when blocked. It would be realistic, cause you push them with your saber, not with your hand.

 

[SilverHazer]

I think the problem is that basically the only thing you can control is being close to the opponent. You can't keep distance if they don't want and just run into you.

What if you could push them away on parry when they are close? Like what slap does when blocked. It would be realistic, cause you push them with your saber, not with your hand.

Yeah I think I actually like that

 

[Tempest]

Alright, getting close to having things set and ready to be tested. I'm going to dub this batch of changes as Phase 1. Things like modifying the swing counts/limits and other more complex things are going to be done in Phase 2 (so that I can see how the current changes affect things without completely reworking core principles of the game at the same time). Once Phase 1 is complete, I'm going to get a thread for my plans for the force tweaks/changes up so we can start discussions on that .