Fix Yaws

Hessu

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I agree.
Style should be left to players, anyway. We don't need to be given perks, all it does is give you an advantage based on the amount of points in your spec.
That's the definition of unbalance.
I get what Hessu is trying to say, but there is so much variety in gameplay already.
Your saber style should not give you any specific advantages, imo.
In my eyes, perks are a tacky solution to the styles not being balanced.
I've said it before but I'll say it again, there needs to be a consensus that we can all come to about yellow v yellow.
Barely any of us can agree on the style that is being used by the majority.
Until that's done, other styles should probably be left out of the equation, unless you're a main of one of the other styles or something.
Variety LOL? Everyone plays the same with the same style, are you kidding me karus?? There is only a handful of players with recognizeable styles
 

KarusBadders

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Variety LOL? Everyone plays the same with the same style, are you kidding me karus?? There is only a handful of players with recognizeable styles
I disagree.
Look at all the top players on EU side; I'd argue that none of them play the same.
Sure, they are reflexive and play quickly but the similarity usually stops there.
Masking, combo variation, yawing, footsies, slap timings, + more, all this stuff contributes to a style.
I'm sure the same goes for other regions, too, though I cannot attest to that.
If less experienced players cannot grasp those mechanics and get on top of them, that is their problem, not the system's.
Essentially what you're asking, is for mid-tiers and lower to become better at the game, potentially picking up something that past duelists completely missed and capitalising on it in order to create a style, etc.
You're not alone in that, not at all :anilaff:
More mechanical changes aren't the solution, though.
Not in my eyes.
And how much variety can be added to a game where you beat the shit out of eachother with glowsticks?
There should be complexity to the system, of course, but at the end of the day, we are fighting with lightsabers, not playing a game of 5D chess.
I'm all for complexity, but I'm a firm believer that we don't need a bunch of new things added to duel.
Rather, fix the system by tweaking mechanics we already have, and watch how things develop from there.
"Add more stuff" mentality is only going to cause more balancing issues, as naturally there are more factors to take into consideration.
 
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Hessu

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I disagree.
Look at all the top players on EU side; I'd argue that none of them play the same.
Sure, they are reflexive, and play quickly but the similarity usually stops there.
Masking, combo variation, yawing, footsies, slap timings, + more, all this stuff contributes to a style.
I'm sure the same goes for other regions, too.
If less experienced players cannot grasp those mechanics and get on top of them, that is their problem, not the system's.
90% are copies with the same saberstyle and playstyle. Just look back at builds like 1.3 and even early to mid 1.4, it was nothing like this. Its extremely dull to play against same playstyle over and over again
 

KarusBadders

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90% are copies with the same saberstyle and playstyle. Just look back at builds like 1.3 and even early to mid 1.4, it was nothing like this. Its extremely dull to play against same playstyle over and over again
There would be relatively no change in the way players fight if the patch were to be reverted.
Reason being, people play how they want because they have fun doing so. Case and point: baka.
In fact, I'm sure you would begin to recognise just how flawed prior builds were, if the current playerbase were to play it.
Things have evolved since then and players now have a much better grasp on how to utilize the mechanics available to them.
Also, 90% is a lot.
You're saying that 9 out of 10 top EU duelists are complete copycats and fight exactly the same way.
Are you sure about this?
I would fundamentally disagree with you about it.
Also, a lot of the evolution in dueling has taken place in the past few years.
People are experimenting now with technique's that flat out did not exist, due to being unrecognised years prior.
I wouldn't say this makes them "copycats", rather, they are learning tactics that were essentially non-existent beforehand.
The patch/build changes are not responsible for this, though.
These things did indeed exist in 1.4 and prior builds but nobody used them.
It's harsh but that's the reality of it. These ways of fighting have been in the game the whole time, but they were ignored/unrecognised.
Players are in large part responsible for the way dueling has evolved and I don't see a single issue with that.
Actually, I think it's pretty fucking cool.
All the old duelists have come back at least once and have been annihilated by current top tiers and I think that's a sign of progress, considering just how small the build differences really are and the duration of their absence from the game.
(I'm of course referring to patches POST v1/RC3, blah blah).
 
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Easier said than done against players like Karus. Especially with the fucked countering system, you'll get interrupted so easily. If i don't yaw fast, his 10000 dpi swings will connect faster than mine, so basically im forced to use very fast yaws too
With yellow you want to use d side swings and move backwards while countering to give your swing time to start up, fast yawing cs at point blank in an attempt to parry is a good way to get sided. I agree though cs on defence should not require this, on pb specifically.
Could be, it 100% happens when the opponent counters though, because its instant
If you are referring to counter swings they are not instant.
Yawing with half-swings would also not be effected due to the lack of windup.
Halfwings/counterswings have wind up if you are referring to this.

The only time you are forced to hard yaw from a timing sense is if the opponent tries to attack while you out time them, and because you didn't yaw, your attack is in the air allowing the opponent to start up their own swing. So you hard yaw to keep them honest aka not attacking. However even this has problems, as the opponent can move, more specifically run to create a gap for them to swing out of, but this is a different topic.

As others have mentioned, spasming out while yawing will get you no where vs someone that is patient and choses an appropriate counter swing, anyone seeking to yaw "fast" with mouse movement will require good control and aim to snap back to neutral for possible retaliation. Even then fast mouse movement is not required to achieve this effect, there are other ways of yawing, namely turning in the opposite direction of the swing during combos with knowledge of hitboxes allows for fast efficient swings, see anbu, deep, mara for what this looks like.

tldr, yawing correctly requires some amount of effort, and you should not be able to throw swings out with no masking, positioning, yaw etc.

Decreasing acm buildup even more would be terrible, its already pretty non existent as it is, which sucks ass.
In the context of duel mode, why should acm exist, as in what situation should you be given acm for?
 
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Hessu

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With yellow you want to use d side swings and move backwards while countering to give your swing time to start up, fast yawing cs at point blank in an attempt to parry is a good way to get sided. I agree though cs on defence should not require this, on pb specifically.

If you are referring to counter swings they are not instant.

Halfwings/counterswings have wind up if you are referring to this.

The only time you are forced to hard yaw from a timing sense is if the opponent tries to attack while you out time them, and because you didn't yaw, your attack is in the air allowing the opponent to start up their own swing. So you hard yaw to keep them honest aka not attacking. However even this has problems, as the opponent can move, more specifically run to create a gap for them to swing out of, but this is a different topic.

As others have mentioned, spasming out while yawing will get you no where vs someone that is patient and choses an appropriate counter swing, anyone seeking to yaw "fast" with mouse movement will require good control and aim to snap back to neutral for possible retaliation. Even then fast mouse movement is not required to achieve this effect, there are other ways of yawing, namely turning in the opposite direction of the swing during combos with knowledge of hitboxes allows for fast efficient swings, see anbu, deep, mara for what this looks like.

tldr, yawing correctly requires some amount of effort, and you should not be able to throw swings out with no masking, positioning, yaw etc.


In the context of duel mode, why should acm exist, as in what situation should you be given acm for?
Duel threepwood and then tell me counters arent instant lol. They can be instant because there is no cd after being hit, you can immediatly swing and combined with a fast yaw, there is barely any time to react. I can show it on video. And about fast yaws, it makes up for not masking and positioning in many situations like facehug, yes you can back away but unless you want to run, its not a big help. Countering/parry mechanics being dumb, you have to do them with a specific swing depending on your opponents swing, if you do it wrong, you will get interrupted. Acm should exist in my opinion, i once thought that it would be better to remove but its nice to get some reward in a duel for playing much better than your opponent.
 

Hessu

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There would be relatively no change in the way players fight if the patch were to be reverted.
Reason being, people play how they want because they have fun doing so. Case and point: baka.
In fact, I'm sure you would begin to recognise just how flawed prior builds were, if the current playerbase were to play it.
Things have evolved since then and players now have a much better grasp on how to utilize the mechanics available to them.
Also, 90% is a lot.
You're saying that 9 out of 10 top EU duelists are complete copycats and fight exactly the same way.
Are you sure about this?
I would fundamentally disagree with you about it.
Also, a lot of the evolution in dueling has taken place in the past few years.
People are experimenting now with technique's that flat out did not exist, due to being unrecognised years prior.
I wouldn't say this makes them "copycats", rather, they are learning tactics that were essentially non-existent beforehand.
The patch/build changes are not responsible for this, though.
These things did indeed exist in 1.4 and prior builds but nobody used them.
It's harsh but that's the reality of it. These ways of fighting have been in the game the whole time, but they were ignored/unrecognised.
Players are in large part responsible for the way dueling has evolved and I don't see a single issue with that.
Actually, I think it's pretty fucking cool.
All the old duelists have come back at least once and have been annihilated by current top tiers and I think that's a sign of progress, considering just how small the build differences really are and the duration of their absence from the game.
(I'm of course referring to patches POST v1/RC3, blah blah).
Of course there wouldn't, for a while at least. Prior builds had more options to go for like saberstyles (ofc you can still use other styles but they are not as balanced) and even if people were to rely on fast yaws on those builds, it wouldnt be as strong as it is on this build. People didnt even think about fast yaws because they didnt have to, there were other ways to duel efficiently. And yes there still are other efficient playstyles but meta tactics clearly outshines them. The remaining 10% of my 90% comment is top eu that have unique playstyles. People experimenting is a good thing, im not against that at all.
 

Hessu

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Also would like to add that kronos is the perfect example of said tactics, im sure people like anbu, deep and mara would struggle against him and would be forced to use other methods that they normally use
 
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Duel threepwood and then tell me counters arent instant lol
I'm telling you the frames/timing for them are not 0, if they were instant you would have no issue cs parrying at point blank among a myriad of other new issues brought by instant counters. There is a difference between unreactable and instant.
And about fast yaws, it makes up for not masking and positioning in many situations like facehug
Again this is a composure problem, if they don't use good swing selection and throw out yaws there is a tell for you based on which direction their model turns, stick to your prediction+reaction from animation and tells. It's a whole lot more scary to have a guy use positioning to put you in guessing games than someone fast yawing from neutral to me at least.
you have to do them with a specific swing depending on your opponents swing
Use the counterswing that has the least windup and backpedal with it, if you use a side on yellow to counter you will be fucked regardless of what swing they use.
 

Anbu

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A lot of the issues come with the communities willingness to abuse the saber system. Sure there are tons of internally bullshit things relating to say other styles/colours or whatever. But a perfectly balanced game is impossible to produce and MB2 especially has experienced it’s fair share of shitty metas. Changing the meta will fuck over current meta abusers sure but in the end ur just gonna have another meta for other people to abuse. Look at SeV for example, no disrespect. But a lot of his videos especially against top EU, are him abusing whatever patch’s “meta” he is on to keep up. And to be honest as shitty as it is I can’t even blame these people anymore. You aren’t forced to duel these people nor are you forced to play that way either. A meta is an easy way out for easy kills, but top players with superior mechanics always come out on top. Meta is a better way to get kills or win duels, but it doesn’t make you a better player. And I think if you look at people like me and karus vs say Threepwood, the living embodiment of meta, it’s a pretty perfect example of meta isint everything, even if it’s annoying. And yaws are not even close to the biggest issue in this game
 

Hessu

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I'm telling you the frames/timing for them are not 0, if they were instant you would have no issue cs parrying at point blank among a myriad of other new issues brought by instant counters. There is a difference between unreactable and instant.

Again this is a composure problem, if they don't use good swing selection and throw out yaws there is a tell for you based on which direction their model turns, stick to your prediction+reaction from animation and tells. It's a whole lot more scary to have a guy use positioning to put you in guessing games than someone fast yawing from neutral to me at least.

Use the counterswing that has the least windup and backpedal with it, if you use a side on yellow to counter you will be fucked regardless of what swing they use.
Gyazo if this is not instant then what is? Only preaim could have saved me from that, also notice how i try to parry him but it just doesn't work...hmm maybe because of those super fast yaws?
problem with counter swings is that its really difficult to get one in a facehug situation, especially when the opponent yaws really fast. Safest way is to wait them to finish their combo and then attack, its like turn based combat lol.
 
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Anbu

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Gyazo if this is not instant then what is? Only preaim could have saved me from that, also notice how i try to parry him but it just doesn't work...hmm maybe because of those super fast yaws?
problem with counter swings is that its really difficult to get one in a facehug situation, especially when the opponent yaws really fast. Safest way is to wait them to finish their combo and then attack, its like turn based combat lol.
Counters are not instant and easily dealt with if you know how. Slaps, baits, and movement with mind games all can deal with counters. However I agree counters are broken, they aren’t instant. Just inconsistent. Especially people who flick yaw fast , it’s ridiculously easy to simply out smart them and punish it.
 

Hessu

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Counters are not instant and easily dealt with if you know how. Slaps, baits, and movement with mind games all can deal with counters. However I agree counters are broken, they aren’t instant. Just inconsistent. Especially people who flick yaw fast , it’s ridiculously easy to simply out smart them and punish it.
Look at that gif, that counter hits me before my swing has returned lol, its pretty much instant and it seems to skip the windup animation. There is nothing i could have done about it except for pre aim
 

Anbu

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Look at that gif, that counter hits me before my swing has returned lol, its pretty much instant and it seems to skip the windup animation. There is nothing i could have done about it except for pre aim
Expect the counter and combo. If you just do 1-3 rhythm ofc he will stop you from parrying. Counters > half swing in speed. If you done a full combo it is impossible to not parry it. If you combo 4 swings every time, even if he countered into ur 2-3-4, it would only parry.
 

Hessu

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Expect the counter and combo. If you just do 1-3 rhythm ofc he will stop you from parrying. Counters > half swing in speed. If you done a full combo it is impossible to not parry it. If you combo 4 swings every time, even if he countered into ur 2-3-4, it would only parry.
its impossible to parry that, its too fast which is the point im making... if you see nothing wrong with counter hitting before my swing has returned, i dont know what to tell you. Counters being faster than halfswings is pretty ridiculous too, hopefully that will change
 

Anbu

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its impossible to parry that, its too fast which is the point im making... if you see nothing wrong with counter hitting before my swing has returned, i dont know what to tell you. Counters being faster than halfswings is pretty ridiculous too, hopefully that will change
Counters have to be faster other wise there are no counters besides slap on timing to half swings. Not realistically anyway.
 

Hessu

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Counters have to be faster other wise there are no counters besides slap on timing to half swings. Not realistically anyway.
PB? They should be at least same speed imo, not like this when they are basically instant. I think they used to be around same speed pre 1.5
 
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now there's some momentum on this thread lets discuss something that actually matters, unlocking the camera during speed lunge.

gunners stand a chance against sabers now, lets unlock the camera like the good old days
 

KarusBadders

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Gyazo if this is not instant then what is? Only preaim could have saved me from that, also notice how i try to parry him but it just doesn't work...hmm maybe because of those super fast yaws?
problem with counter swings is that its really difficult to get one in a facehug situation, especially when the opponent yaws really fast. Safest way is to wait them to finish their combo and then attack, its like turn based combat lol.
You stopped your combo. Had you carried on swinging after your first, you would have been able to parry or perhaps even interrupt my retaliation, but you stopped with 1 swing and got pushed against.
You then tried to counter in a random direction during my retaliation, which then caused you to be interrupted.
The counter swing is not instant.
It seems that way because you are trying to randomly counter/parry but literally cannot get your attacks out due to timing and/or panicking.
As I said, had you continued your combo, you would have been fine, which means the counter swing cannot possibly be instantaneous.
Yawing has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Pre-aim also would not have done jack shit and is a retarded excuse, as pre-aiming 4 pb zones requires at least some degree of good prediction.
What would have saved you is simply continuing to attack or simply backing off after you realised I was retaliating instead of trying to M1 mash in order to match my speed/offensive.
Though I agree that the countering mechanic is inconsistent as shit.
The way countering works currently is completely stupid. It should be based on PB, not swing direction, imo.
Meaning, it shouldn't matter where the enemy is swinging from; if you PB that, you should be guaranteed a counter.
Not guaranteed DAMAGE, but guaranteed ABILITY to counter, instead of it being mindless M1 mashing like it currently is.
(Yes I'm guilty of it but so are you as you attempted it in the clip lol, everybody else is too its how countering works right now and its not our fault, blame Temp for implementing dumb ideas and not listening to good players, he literally said if the counter system was not how it is right now, countering would be unskilled LOL, no offense to him of course, I just wanted to point that out)
 
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Gyazo if this is not instant then what is? Only preaim could have saved me from that, also notice how i try to parry him but it just doesn't work...hmm maybe because of those super fast yaws?
problem with counter swings is that its really difficult to get one in a facehug situation, especially when the opponent yaws really fast. Safest way is to wait them to finish their combo and then attack, its like turn based combat lol.
you positioned your mouse poorly and failed to anticipate the counter, in my experience i can consistently anticipate counters and PB them if my opponent is heavily reliant on them and repeats the same D side swing. Or, I can bait out a counter with a swing and instantly slap.
 
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