Fix sabering

[noel]

Revert to 1.5.x sabering and fix the few minor things that were wrong with it.

Parry/counter timings didn’t work correctly/consistently and some of the styles were too OP due to interrupts. There was probably other small things that needed changing but not to the point of requiring an overhaul.

Why does every sabering update have to be this big overhaul? I appreciate I’m late to the party but this new system is conflated and ridiculous. Who in the word was asking for mblock defences and randomly added mechanics like this?

Keep it simple and fix up a patch that was almost good, such as 1.4.5 or 1.5.x.

 

[Vogolt]

NOEL IS BACK!

 

[Hessu]

Better to just fix one thing at a time than making a complete revert. That being said, 1.4.9 was probably the best "base" to improve on.

 

[n00b]

Revert to 1.5.x sabering and fix the few minor things that were wrong with it.

Parry/counter timings didn’t work correctly/consistently and some of the styles were too OP due to interrupts. There was probably other small things that needed changing but not to the point of requiring an overhaul.

Why does every sabering update have to be this big overhaul? I appreciate I’m late to the party but this new system is conflated and ridiculous. Who in the word was asking for mblock defences and randomly added mechanics like this?

Keep it simple and fix up a patch that was almost good, such as 1.4.5 or 1.5.x.

What a time to be alive... you saying something I agree with.

 

[Kokoro]

What a time to be alive... you saying something I agree with.

Agreed.

 

[Leo]

there have been more comments about the need of reverting dueling in the last week than comments anyhow trying to imply that r20 is good/playable in the last 3 months
not a coincidence, its a wake up call

found out that the same post has been made by noel in 2022 and that people still agree with what they said in 2022, cant even use the excuse that "this is what always happens when new patch releases" lol

a post from 2019 being exactly relatable to this situation 5 years later means its very bad btw

 

[NotJoel]

I mean the saber lead literally left there is a need to do at least smth now

 

[Valkyrie]

but not to the point of requiring an overhaul.

100% agreed

 

[NotJoel]

I do feel like you should actually play the patch for a week minimum to properly judge it. Rn most of the feedback made it at least a bit enjoyable compared to the fresh r20, rn its smth like a worse and more buggy 1.10 We either have to revert or find a new dev who finishes the main problems of current r20. Constantly asking for a revert without knowing most of this patch's problems is just backward thinking. I also wish for a revert, but I think it's very hard to just pull back in the old code and imbed it into the live patch without creating a ton of bugs.

On the other hand we legit have no dev who can fix the most glaring issues of r20 (though I feel like there are just a couple of things that need to be fixed in order to be decent, because rn the patch is actually kind of playable). It's probably easier to fix these issues than to implement a old saber patch into the live patch ngl. As you said there is no point of requiring an overhaul and a complete revert would be a complete overhaul AGAIN. Someone has to work on the code either way in case of a revert or someone fixing r20 and I feel like fixing r20 sounds less awful to implement for the person who would be working on it. Except the backend rewrites fucked up so much that the stuff below can't even be fixed (talking about pbs and hitboxes).

Also if the minimal chance of Stassin's return happens (hopefully), then it makes probably more sense that he works on his own older patches instead of this patch made by a different person (tempest).

You can see here I posted this in the r20 feedback channel 1 day before Tempest left everything, and it's rly not much that needs to be fixed for a good foundation.

 

[noel]

I do feel like you should actually play the patch for a week minimum to properly judge it. Rn most of the feedback made it at least a bit enjoyable compared to the fresh r20, rn its smth like a worse and more buggy 1.10 We either have to revert or find a new dev who finishes the main problems of current r20. Constantly asking for a revert without knowing most of this patch's problems is just backward thinking. I also wish for a revert, but I think it's very hard to just pull back in the old code and imbed it into the live patch without creating a ton of bugs.

On the other hand we legit have no dev who can fix the most glaring issues of r20 (though I feel like there are just a couple of things that need to be fixed in order to be decent, because rn the patch is actually kind of playable). It's probably easier to fix these issues than to implement a old saber patch into the live patch ngl. As you said there is no point of requiring an overhaul and a complete revert would be a complete overhaul AGAIN. Someone has to work on the code either way in case of a revert or someone fixing r20 and I feel like fixing r20 sounds less awful to implement for the person who would be working on it. Except the backend rewrites fucked up so much that the stuff below can't even be fixed (talking about pbs and hitboxes).

Also if the minimal chance of Stassin's return happens (hopefully), then it makes probably more sense that he works on his own older patches instead of this patch made by a different person (tempest).

You can see here I posted this in the r20 feedback channel 1 day before Tempest left everything, and it's rly not much that needs to be fixed for a good foundation.
View attachment 8343

Half of the added janky mechanics introduced in r20 are unwanted by most if not all players though, such as ‘mb defence’ etc.

I’m fairly sure most people just want a system with pb, mb, parries (that work), combos, halfswings, counters (that work), swingblock, slaps and a simple ACM design

We need the essentials to work before we start adding all these bizarre additions that tempest made to r20.

The issue with using r20 is that, for whatever reason, no one has been able to recreate the same collisions and consistency that 1.4.9 had when it came to parrying, counters etc since.

I personally do not care how the end result is achieved, only that it is achieved. If that means stripping r20 to the bare bones, restoring an old patch, starting from scratch, I don’t really know/care. I understand there’s little vested interest in an individual wanting to carry out this work voluntarily, but if someone does take up this task, this is how they should proceed IMO.

 

[Hessu]

I do feel like you should actually play the patch for a week minimum to properly judge it. Rn most of the feedback made it at least a bit enjoyable compared to the fresh r20, rn its smth like a worse and more buggy 1.10 We either have to revert or find a new dev who finishes the main problems of current r20. Constantly asking for a revert without knowing most of this patch's problems is just backward thinking. I also wish for a revert, but I think it's very hard to just pull back in the old code and imbed it into the live patch without creating a ton of bugs.

On the other hand we legit have no dev who can fix the most glaring issues of r20 (though I feel like there are just a couple of things that need to be fixed in order to be decent, because rn the patch is actually kind of playable). It's probably easier to fix these issues than to implement a old saber patch into the live patch ngl. As you said there is no point of requiring an overhaul and a complete revert would be a complete overhaul AGAIN. Someone has to work on the code either way in case of a revert or someone fixing r20 and I feel like fixing r20 sounds less awful to implement for the person who would be working on it. Except the backend rewrites fucked up so much that the stuff below can't even be fixed (talking about pbs and hitboxes).

Also if the minimal chance of Stassin's return happens (hopefully), then it makes probably more sense that he works on his own older patches instead of this patch made by a different person (tempest).

You can see here I posted this in the r20 feedback channel 1 day before Tempest left everything, and it's rly not much that needs to be fixed for a good foundation.
View attachment 8343

This is a pretty good list but how would you nerf running? I've seen many suggestions over the years but none that would be a good solution.

 

[Hessu]

Half of the added janky mechanics introduced in r20 are unwanted by most if not all players though, such as ‘mb defence’ etc.

I’m fairly sure most people just want a system with pb, mb, parries (that work), combos, halfswings, counters (that work), swingblock, slaps and a simple ACM design

We need the essentials to work before we start adding all these bizarre additions that tempest made to r20.

The issue with using r20 is that, for whatever reason, no one has been able to recreate the same collisions and consistency that 1.4.9 had when it came to parrying, counters etc since.

I personally do not care how the end result is achieved, only that it is achieved. If that means stripping r20 to the bare bones, restoring an old patch, starting from scratch, I don’t really know/care. I understand there’s little vested interest in an individual wanting to carry out this work voluntarily, but if someone does take up this task, this is how they should proceed IMO.

Yeah I don't understand why there had to be a 'mb defence' or stuff like that. There are quite a few unnecessary things that overcomplicate things. Some perks are odd too

 

[.biggs]

I do feel like you should actually play the patch for a week minimum to properly judge it. Rn most of the feedback made it at least a bit enjoyable compared to the fresh r20, rn its smth like a worse and more buggy 1.10 We either have to revert or find a new dev who finishes the main problems of current r20. Constantly asking for a revert without knowing most of this patch's problems is just backward thinking. I also wish for a revert, but I think it's very hard to just pull back in the old code and imbed it into the live patch without creating a ton of bugs.

On the other hand we legit have no dev who can fix the most glaring issues of r20 (though I feel like there are just a couple of things that need to be fixed in order to be decent, because rn the patch is actually kind of playable). It's probably easier to fix these issues than to implement a old saber patch into the live patch ngl. As you said there is no point of requiring an overhaul and a complete revert would be a complete overhaul AGAIN. Someone has to work on the code either way in case of a revert or someone fixing r20 and I feel like fixing r20 sounds less awful to implement for the person who would be working on it. Except the backend rewrites fucked up so much that the stuff below can't even be fixed (talking about pbs and hitboxes).

Also if the minimal chance of Stassin's return happens (hopefully), then it makes probably more sense that he works on his own older patches instead of this patch made by a different person (tempest).

You can see here I posted this in the r20 feedback channel 1 day before Tempest left everything, and it's rly not much that needs to be fixed for a good foundation.
View attachment 8343

nerf running but allow PB to absorb all damage with no down side at all? sounds camp.
Regardless of the current system and its lack of PBC/MBC, depending on your style's perks; the fundamental issue is that the playerbase are split on what they want from the saber V saber system.
I don't want to face sit and mindlessly trade PBs into instant HS responses - but there are others who do enjoy that type of gameplay.
I would rather dance with my opponent and attempt a forced whif into a punish > which is essentially "running" to everyone else that disagrees with that style of play.
the 1.5 meta has truly been a bane on this community for many years now and it has continued to be prevelant even within this supposed new era of Tempest's build.
It is a direct result of leaving a terrible system active for 5 years before making any changes.
I still can recall the fear I had for the future of the mod when the 1.5 patch notes were announced, as I knew it would destroy the dueling scene and promote a toxic meta and all of that has since come to fruition.

here we are all these years later and I'm still epic and better than everyone else.

 

[RogueWookiee]

why 1.5 specifically? instant counters were cancer. 1.4.9 is the most ideal patch to revert the dueling system to and then bug fixes after that. 1.4.9 is probably the most well-received patch for dueling i've seen throughout the years of testing, aside from the imbalances in cyan and perfect parry, but all of this can be adjusted.

 

[PaxKlanq]

why 1.5 specifically? instant counters were cancer. 1.4.9 is the most ideal patch to revert the dueling system to and then bug fixes after that. 1.4.9 is probably the most well-received patch for dueling i've seen throughout the years of testing, aside from the imbalances in cyan and perfect parry, but all of this can be adjusted.

Now if only the devs would host a poll or community vote at least. So we could know they are listening and willing to change with the community.
I'm not an old player like some who remember the golden age of saber fighting but even I have my criticisms of the current patch .

and if they don't want to part with the current system they worked on they could hypothetically make it the LEGENDS style of sabering and then revert for open / dueling if the code could handle it.

 

[Leo]

Now if only the devs would host a poll or community vote at least. So we could know they are listening and willing to change with the community.
I'm not an old player like some who remember the golden age of saber fighting but even I have my criticisms of the current patch .

and if they don't want to part with the current system they worked on they could hypothetically make it the LEGENDS style of sabering and then revert for open / dueling if the code could handle it.

last time there was a poll for sabering 80% people voted for tempest build (this patch) compared to revert/stay current patch so polls are scary

 

[n00b]

why 1.5 specifically? instant counters were cancer. 1.4.9 is the most ideal patch to revert the dueling system to and then bug fixes after that. 1.4.9 is probably the most well-received patch for dueling i've seen throughout the years of testing, aside from the imbalances in cyan and perfect parry, but all of this can be adjusted.

Ah yes, lets go back to Shadowswing spam and ACM farming. ( Could be that was only 1.4.8, iirc it was also 1.4.9)
Think Biggs said it pretty well, you won't be able to please everyone...
What's a shame is that alot of the very loyal old players get their ideas cast aside for some new player baby raging on discord and forums.

 

[RogueWookiee]

Ah yes, lets go back to Shadowswing spam and ACM farming.

This is possible in ANY patch unfortunately, ESPECIALLY tempests build, but that is allowed by default in the design of our dueling system.

That doesn't mean we can't incorporate remedies to running in a patch like 1.4.9.

 

[Yesletterz]

This is possible in ANY patch unfortunately, ESPECIALLY tempests build, but that is allowed by default in the design of our dueling system.

That doesn't mean we can't incorporate remedies to running in a patch like 1.4.9.

I agree and all "running" has counter play ultimately. Even the dreaded 0 BP parry.

 

[Jedi Pacifist]

This is a pretty good list but how would you nerf running? I've seen many suggestions over the years but none that would be a good solution.

what is that even mean? like slower running speed? and WHY?