Feelings towards Flinch

[SomeGuy]

So after seeing flinch over and over I have a few opinions about it.

I do believe it is a good addition and a step in the right direction. But...

They problem is that it does not really punish saberists for a mistake as much as only rewards the gunner for his aim. The people who know how it works and can manipulate it use it for swingblocks vs guns. Otherwise just run close enough to nudge and then quick swing.

Personally I feel flinch should be removed and original shot knockbacks on all opponents from previous builds reintroduced. The knockback rewarded the gunner and penalized the saberist equally. Also it gave more opportunity to pin other gunners against walls to prevent fleeing and quicken engagements.

 

[Revanic]

Flinch is op when it comes to SBDs, Dekas, and Wooks. Other than that, it can end up rather useless. I don't think it should totally be removed, but perhaps a flinch shot should ignore the new Jedi damage reduction as a punishment, and only for that shot. SBDs, Dekas, and Wooks shouldn't get flinch, they really don't need it.

 

[agentoo8]

agreed. even a good jedi vs avg deka/wook/sbd has a big disadvantage imo. remove flinch from those classes as they do not need it. keep it for others.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

What if flinch was applied to weapons when they are max level?
So lower classes can still get flich but the powerful classes will need to spend a lot of points to get flinch.

 

[SomeGuy]

That's just making it overly complicated.

All I'm saying is, to me, it felt more balanced with knockback rather than flinch. I say this because I have noticed that flinch is a clear disadvantage to unskilled saberists, and it does it's intended job well, but the skilled ones don't mitigate this disadvantage. They completely turn it around into a great boon.

I feel the older system, from many years past builds, where they had current damage reduction but got pushed back by body hits worked better.

 

[Revanic]

perhaps a mix? All hits do knockback, but hitting their dominant sabering arm ( shoulder, arm, and hand ), as well as their face would cause a flinch? Dunno about Duals though, maybe both arms could cause it then. Sounds a bit complicated, but rewards aim.

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

Actually, Beef's suggestion seems good too with a tweak.

Just remove the ability to flinch from certain weapons - cloner 3, sbd fp3, deka, bowcaster, anything else?

And then...and then, instead...give those weapons that can't flinch the old knockback. Makes sense, they are higher powered....Especially that bowcaster lol.

Imo, if you hit a sith in mid air with it, it should launch them back like push, maybe even knockdown

 

[SomeGuy]

perhaps a mix? All hits do knockback, but hitting their dominant sabering arm ( shoulder, arm, and hand ), as well as their face would cause a flinch? Dunno about Duals though, maybe both arms could cause it then. Sounds a bit complicated, but rewards aim.

Sounds like an interesting idea but complicated. Think of it in a scenario where you are a happy, innocent stormtrooper walking along when you hear the kshhh of a lifesaver activating. To your dismay you see Rosh Penin the Great, Destroyer of Worlds, running straight towards you. You then remember your training and raise your faithful E-11, BlastyMcBlastface, and ready to fire. He swings his Extendosaber of Doom while you fire. Would you rather hit the demon in his fire-breathing chest and do damage while pushing him away or simply stop the broad swing of his powerful attack for a mere second so that he may attempt again to separate your gleaming white body parts from your loyal Imperial body?

I prefer the former.

 

[Chaos the Chaotic]

Stop being melodramatic you bastard! It's obscene.

I like the idea of some weapons being able to flinch while some have good knockback.

/End Thread.



Heh, what if jedi made gunners flinchy, say with push, while they're walking, crouching or standing still. The effect would be a loss of accuracy unless they switch to primary fire. An ode to the perverse.

Shouldn't successful primaries have a chance% of setting a target ablaze?

Where the female stormtroopers at? Boobplate ftf.

 

[SomeGuy]

i·ro·ny1
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noun
Definition:

Stop being melodramatic you bastard! It's obscene.

I kind of like the idea now that different weapons or fire modes would be dependent on what happens. Such as high ROF does not flinch but does direct damage so the swing is uninterrupted. Then slower, more powerful shots can flinch to save a bigger HP chunk for the Jedi if he does get flinched.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

Actually, Beef's suggestion seems good too with a tweak.

Just remove the ability to flinch from certain weapons - cloner 3, sbd fp3, deka, bowcaster, anything else?

And then...and then, instead...give those weapons that can't flinch the old knockback. Makes sense, they are higher powered....Especially that bowcaster lol.

Imo, if you hit a sith in mid air with it, it should launch them back like push, maybe even knockdown

I actually dont really like my idea but I figured it would good enough to inspire something using mine as a base.

 

[Noob]

I think Q3 should be brought back, and have that be knockback only.

 

[Manyo]

I agree that something needs to be done about flinch vs Deka (all firepowers, discharge is more than enough alone), Clone Rifle 3, SBD FP3 (maybe FP2), Bowcaster 2/3. I'm not sure about T-21 since you can't keep walking away if you want perfect accuracy, the jedi can close in on T-21 easier than on the guns mentioned above making flinch for T-21 more justified (unless ET walks away and gets lucky of course).
The rest of the weapons need flinch.

The easy way to fix this is to just remove flinch for some weapons while it stays the same vs others. It wouldn't make sense from a gameplay design perspective. But if there isn't a better way just do it, mb2 won't get newbie friendly ever anyway.
I like the idea of having knockback for certain weapons instead, but i think that wouldn't nerf those weapons enough vs saberists unless you make it so small that it doesnt matter anyway.

 

[SomeGuy]

But if there isn't a better way just do it, mb2 won't get newbie friendly ever anyway.
I like the idea of having knockback for certain weapons instead, but i think that wouldn't nerf those weapons enough vs saberists unless you make it so small that it doesnt matter anyway.

The current iterations of the game are already the easiest ones for people to play as Jedi. Instead of high risk/reward, it's low risk/high reward. The issue with current flinch is if used correctly it can be completely flipped from a negative to a positive. Most don't know how to do this, but the ones who do are hard to beat. It should only be mitigated, not completely reversed.

 

[Anonymous]

The current iterations of the game are already the easiest ones for people to play as Jedi. Instead of high risk/reward, it's low risk/high reward. The issue with current flinch is if used correctly it can be completely flipped from a negative to a positive. Most don't know how to do this, but the ones who do are hard to beat. It should only be mitigated, not completely reversed.

How do you do this?

 

[Manyo]

The current iterations of the game are already the easiest ones for people to play as Jedi. Instead of high risk/reward, it's low risk/high reward. The issue with current flinch is if used correctly it can be completely flipped from a negative to a positive. Most don't know how to do this, but the ones who do are hard to beat. It should only be mitigated, not completely reversed.

Sorry, i somehow skipped your critizism towards nudge+quick attack. From my understanding now this is the only thing what you criticize about the whole flinch situation? I tried to keep flinch and nudge+quick attack seperated even tho second one negates flinch a bit.
Maybe i haven't played vs saberists that used nudge+quick attack in a proper way on me but i never felt cheated by it playing with any gun in the game yet. The gunner moving and switchting to crouch can make it a little bit tricky to nudge and it gives the gunner the opportunity to get some extra shots with high fp drain in. It's not much but i think it's enough to get a fair fight as gunner.
So i keep my stance on the flinch changes while not changing nudge+quick attack (for now).

edit: nevermind i totally misunderstood you.

 

[Stassin]

The current knockback has proven to be insufficient in deterring easy forward+attack kills as jedi/sith (widely shown in 1.3 and in fact previous versions as well all the way back to v0); when these issues were being discussed and tested internally, an overall higher, sufficient knockback was tested, and even more subtle things such as making the knockback higher only if the jedi/sith was hit twice in quick succession by a gun. The general testing feedback regarding these attempts claimed that higher (sufficient to be useful) knockback looked very awkward if not horrible, literally sending jedi/sith flying far. As a result, the idea of flinch was proposed and tested instead, and proved to be a satisfying enough compromise to solve the issue.

It is still obviously subject to improvement, and possible coherent ways to nerf it against high ROF weapons such as CR3 or FP3 deka/sbd could be to make the jedi/sith flinch only upon being hit twice in very quick succession, or make the jedi/sith recover faster from the flinch stagger depending on the dmg of the gun, rather than something crude like just magically removing it against certain weapons. The idea of making flinch occur only when the head/arm/hand is hit sounds cool but goes against the core reason why flinch was implemented in the first place: to allow gunners to survive a jedi/sith saber swing even when only hitting their legs, waist, torso or arms; indeed, hitting the head already does great damage thus causes great knockback even currently, which is almost sufficient to save the gunner, but the aiming level required is far too high compared to how easy it is to saber swing, which is the main issue. At least just having to shoot any part of the body to survive is more fair, even though it's still alot harder than swinging a saber.

 

[SomeGuy]

Sorry, i somehow skipped your critizism towards nudge+quick attack. From my understanding now this is the only thing what you criticize about the whole flinch situation? I tried to keep flinch and nudge+quick attack seperated even tho second one negates flinch a bit.
Maybe i haven't played vs saberists that used nudge+quick attack in a proper way on me but i never felt cheated by it playing with any gun in the game yet. The gunner moving and switchting to crouch can make it a little bit tricky to nudge and it gives the gunner the opportunity to get some extra shots with high fp drain in. It's not much but i think it's enough to get a fair fight as gunner.
So i keep my stance on the flinch changes while not changing nudge+quick attack (for now).

If you swingblock it stops all effects of flinch except for the cancel of the swing. Even if you're hit by a flinch and not swingblocking, tapping block stops the animation immediately. You can use this, if you have good reflexes, as a free pass on all missed swings in face to face encounters with gunners. Add in bunny hopping and the bad hit detection with it, plus the whole nudge factor if the gunner keeps the jedi suppressed from swinging at saber length, it just makes for a bad formula.

Flinch works well versus the players who can't control it. Flinch works too well reversely for players who can control it.

 

[Stassin]

If you swingblock it stops all effects of flinch except for the cancel of the swing. Even if you're hit by a flinch and not swingblocking, tapping block stops the animation immediately. You can use this, if you have good reflexes, as a free pass on all missed swings in face to face encounters with gunners. Add in bunny hopping and the bad hit detection with it, plus the whole nudge factor if the gunner keeps the jedi suppressed from swinging at saber length, it just makes for a bad formula.

Flinch works well versus the players who can't control it. Flinch works too well reversely for players who can control it.

Flinch definitely adds no positive effect for the jedi/sith whatsoever, this is simply an illusory feeling that you are getting when encountering it. Tapping block doesn't stop the animation at all, however getting flinched, then holding block, and getting shot after that does stop the animation, putting you in a block animation (from which you can perform a counter ie a halfswing). You can't "use" this positively, for instance the exact same happens when you simply swingblock: you get in a block animation from which you can counter (or not counter, and return to the idle saber state and ram into the gunner to activate nudge, from which you do a halfswing - but doing a counter is faster since you don't need to wait to get back to the idle state and nudging to do a halfswing then). If flinch didn't exist, you could perform the exact same thing too: swing, get hit (your swing continues), then hold block (thus you are swingblocking now), then get hit again which puts you in a block animation. Flinch (which is nothing more than a short stagger) only strictly stops your swing instead of allowing it to continue (and prevents you from starting another swing while flinching).

Nothing more than a matter of crisply understanding what occurs in-game.

 

[Flooven]

I have noticed that it adds a sense of timing for Jedi/sith when killing gunners, as well as always remembering to swing block if you can. However, I do feel that the flinch does make Jedi and sith that "easy to pick up, extremely hard to master class", which I absolutely love. Jedi feel like a class that should be far and few between, and when people do play Jedi, they should be a force to be reckoned with if they know what they are doing

On the other hand, I will say that hero and bounty hunter with p3 in the right hands is absolutely menacing to even some of the better Jedi and sith, and leaves Jedi and sith to be good against other Jedi, and mediocre gunners. I for one used to pretty much only play Jedi, but I've found I do so much better with the p3, just by timing my shots on an aggressive Jedi. And I'm not griping about that at all, I love it.

Basically what I'm trying to say is, the game feels more diverse with fewer Jedi in my opinion, and the Jedi usually either get picked off quick, or still demolish the enemy team is they know what they are doing. I feel that the skill floor was raised with flinch, but also the skill ceiling for most classes, with the exception of high fire rate guns.