Feedback Thread: Open Beta (after V1.4.9) - Drop 4

[Defiant]

This is for community feedback from the Open Beta currently running on the Official Open Beta Servers.

Details are here: The next steps forward

You can also join our Discord discussion: Discord - Free voice and text chat for gamers

Previous feedback thread: Feedback Thread: Open Beta (after V1.4.9) - Drop 3

Please limit feedback and discussion to the gameplay changes only.

This change log is changes from the 1.4.9 Official Release not from the last open beta drop unless the changes are listed in the "Open Beta" section.

Change Log

General:

• arcs/clones can now toggle stamina off with special 1 (comes with a 500ms timer cooldown between inputs to prevent accidentally turning it off when activating)
  • Stamina is only drained whilst running.
  • Can now be activate whilst holding an unloaded PLX
• Holding use no longer drains resources while doing the short jump

Saber vs Gunner changes

• FP Debuff removed
• Flinch removed
• FP Regen normalized to always be 1.0x regardless of blocking, walking, or saber state.
• FP drain is now only capped in two circumstances.
  • If block is held down, FP drains can't exceed more than 50 FP.
  • If a shot comes from outside IDR (long range) and would have drained more than 40 FP, it's capped at draining 40 FP.
• Running FP drain multiplier changed from 1.2x to 0.95x
• Adjustments to knockback to make it more consistent/effective against saberists.
• Universal damage reduction removed from saberists. Force-only (as in, does not have a saber whatsoever; not just stowed away) Jedi/Sith still retain 20% innate damage reduction. Poison adjusted to still apply damage at the same rate it did regardless.
• Jedi/Sith (saber or not) have a 20% damage reduction multiplier while in rolling getup animations.
• Jedi/Sith (saber or not) have a 20% damage reduction multiplier from friendly fire.
• IDR calculations are now one linear scaling instead of a mix of linear scaling and static multipliers depending on what range you're at.
• Blocking and non-blocking IDR multipliers/calculations are now identical.
• Threshhold distance for long range (outside IDR) FP drains changed from 410 to 375. If a target is past the threshhold, max value for distance is set to 375 (to avoid super minimal FP drains)
• Blocking drains are now a flat 0.65 multiplier.

Further gameplay changes

• Clone Rifle
  • Blob velocity does not get the velocity increase of all other shots.
  • Blob base damage reduced from 20 to 10.
  • Concussion blob will only knockdown if someone is running or in the air. Will cause stagger otherwise.
  • Ion Blob ammo count reduced from 2/4/6 to 2/3/4.
  • Ion Blob shock duration reduced by 25%.
• Poison Dart
  • Dosage count reduced from 10 to 8 (6 less damage in total)
  • Poison force regeneration reduction changed to 50% down from 100%
• Grenades
  • FP drain removed (20 from frags, 10 from sonics)
• Alt frags
  • No longer detonate on first impact. Uses same physics as primary functionality. Will detonate if it comes into contact with another player (doesn't matter if it's off of a bounce or a direct hit).
  • Time between being thrown and exploding is reduced the longer its primed/charged. Auto-throws after 5 seconds of charging and will always have a short distance before exploding after doing so.
• Pistol
  • Charge scaling adjustment
    • Minimum base damage of charged shots increased from 26 to 28
    • Maximum base damage increased from 60 to 75
    • Damage increase per charge tick increased from 6.8 to 9.4
    • FP drain multiplier for charged shots increased from 1.1x to 1.5x
• Bowcaster
  • charge scaling adjustment
    • No longer hits full charge damage (90 base damage) in 1 second of charging
    • Charge ticks changed from 200ms to 250ms
    • Max total charge ticks increased from 5 to 20
    • Damage increases 6 per charge tick with a cap of 150 base damage.
• T21
  • FP drain multiplier for alt fire raised from 1.15x to 1.25x
  • Base damage lowered from 28 to 26
• TK System
  • forgiving someone applies no TK points
• SBD
  • base damage changed from 18 + (battery / 10) to a flat 26 damage at all times
• Projectile Rifle
  • Ammo adjusted from 7/15/24 to 8/10/15
• Dodge
  • Duration for each level reduced
    • Level 1 - 0.66 Seconds
    • Level 2 - 1.33 Seconds
    • Level 3 - 2 Seconds
• Deka
  • FP multiplier increased from 1.0 to 1.05
• Force
  • Force Pull cooldown timer increased by 100%
  • Grip no longer auto-cancels after a fixed amount of time.
• Pulse Grenades
  • Thrown grenade shock duration increased from 0.5 Seconds to 3.5 Seconds
  • Launched grenade shock duration increased from 0.5 Seconds to 2.4 Seconds
  • Launched grenade shock duration against Deka and SBD increased from 1.82 Seconds to 2.4 Seconds

Damage modifier:

• Torso locational modifier raised from 1.3x to 1.4x
• Legs location modifier increased from 0.6 to 0.8

TK system (additional):

• Players on the spectator team will no longer be able to deal any damage.

 

[Tempest]

Specific changes from last one:

- Being electrocuted no longer allows for passive ammo recharging for anyone (not just SBDs/Dekas)

Sprint (fixed):
- Special 1 to activate sprint.
- Special 1/walk/crouch to deactivate sprint
- While active, sprint only drains while running

FP drains:
- View based factor removed. Blocking is now a 0.65x static multiplier.
- Long range threshhold now 375 instead of 325 (a bit more lenient for long range drains)

Damage multiplier:
- Torso reduced from 1.5 to 1.4. Arms now match torso multiplier again.
- Legs increased from 0.6 to 0.8. Feet multiplier now match leg multiplier again.

Blobs:
- Concussion no longer uses charging
- Base damage for concussion blobs now 10 instead of 5 + charging factoring
- Stagger/knockdown functionality now follows the same rules as Push (e.g. if running/midair, will be knocked down, otherwise stagger)
- Ion blobs: Shock duration reduced by 25%

Force:
- Increase cooldown on Pull from 325ms to 650ms. This also increases the vulnerability window. FP pause timer after using is still the same.
- Grip no longer auto-cancels after a set time

Pulses:
- Thrown pulse now shocks for 3500ms up from 500
- Launched pulses now shock for 2400ms up from 500
- Launched pulses to have 2400 duration zaps up from 1820 on SBD/Dekas

TK system (additional):
Typo in above post! v
- "If a player has disconnected, killed themself, changed classes/teams (and died from triggering either of these), swapped to spectator,  or been executed due to too many TK points, they will no longer cause damage during the round"

 

[Lessen]

Specific changes from last one:

- Being electrocuted no longer allows for passive ammo recharging for anyone (not just SBDs/Dekas)

Sprint (fixed):
- Special 1 to activate sprint.
- Special 1/walk/crouch to deactivate sprint
- While active, sprint only drains while running

FP drains:
- View based factor removed. Blocking is now a 0.65x static multiplier.
- Long range threshhold now 375 instead of 325 (a bit more lenient for long range drains)

Damage multiplier:
- Torso reduced from 1.5 to 1.4. Arms now match torso multiplier again.
- Legs increased from 0.6 to 0.8. Feet multiplier now match leg multiplier again.

Blobs:
- Concussion no longer uses charging
- Base damage for concussion blobs now 10 instead of 5 + charging factoring
- Stagger/knockdown functionality now follows the same rules as Push (e.g. if running/midair, will be knocked down, otherwise stagger)
- Ion blobs: Shock duration reduced by 25%

Force:
- Increase cooldown on Pull from 325ms to 650ms. This also increases the vulnerability window. FP pause timer after using is still the same.
- Grip no longer auto-cancels after a set time

Pulses:
- Thrown pulse now shocks for 3500ms up from 500
- Launched pulses now shock for 2400ms up from 500
- Launched pulses to have 2400 duration zaps up from 1820 on SBD/Dekas

TK system (additional):
Typo in above post! v
- "If a player has disconnected, killed themself, changed classes/teams (and died from triggering either of these), swapped to spectator, or been executed due to too many TK points, they will no longer cause damage during the round"

Haha, thanks for listing the changes relative to the previous version Tempest I changed the "code" label to a "quote" in my quote of you above cuz quotes easier to read (no horizontal scrollbars)

edit: Now for actual reactions to the changes...
Sprint sounds thoroughly fixed, I'll thoroughly test it though. I'm assuming holding sprint+walk simply makes you walk slowly and regenerate now, so I'm assuming the top walkspeed of clone has been effectively reduced, and I still take issue with that. Edit: Yeah, Stamina all works cleanly and logically now, walk and crouch both deactivate stamina. If I have one complaint about it, it's that because holding the stamina button causes stamina to alternate on and off, I can't simply hold the stamina button while alternating between walking and running, and stay sprinting the whole time.

Simplifying blocking FP drains again makes sense.

Slightly longer range fp drains are nice since innocent newbs already waste a bunch of ammo shooting at longer ranges.

Legshot buff is nice, torsoshot readjustment is reasonable.

Conc readjustment all makes sense to me and sounds really good, glad you made it follow same logic as Push.

Pull Nerf is understandable, people could kinda spam pull sometimes, although it ate your FP fast so I didn't mind it really.

EMP buff (edit: I said "nerf" initially here, where is my mind) sounds gnarly, 3.5s and 2.4s shock timer means those are way more disabling, plus I just enjoy rebs having access to "lightning" in some form, for some reason.

Not sure of the power of the grip buff (infinite duration as long as FP holds up?).

TK point adjustment is sweet. Someone who is killed fairly will still do damage, but someone who kills/deletes themselves (in various ways) won't. Really good adjustment.

Edit: Fall damage is still broken, Tempest's already been informed, just putting it here for others' awareness. Shoutouts to @IHaveNoIdeaHow for noticing, at least, I think that was him. Someone with a similar name in-game.

 

[vasya]

Increase cooldown on Pull from 325ms to 650ms. This also increases the vulnerability window.

why =\
for pull u need to look right on target. it's harder to pull someone and pull cost in points is higher than push for example. why change it?

 

[k4far]

why =\
for pull u need to look right on target. it's harder to pull someone and pull cost in points is higher than push for example. why change it?

Because the thing mainly limiting Pull was it's own animation...? Your FP too but, well...

Not much has changed here, really. From now on less spam and more aiming. If you miss two Pulls in a row you are going to have a bad time. Pull used to have 300(ms) - 0,3s vulnerability window. Changed to 600(ms) - 0,6s. Worth keeping in mind the FP Regen Pause (time in which you are not regenerating your Force Points) is still the same 800(ms) - 0,8s. With this change in BETA people who aim and can time it well are actually rewarded in contrary to spammers. There is no point complaining if you aim.

 

[Lessen]

aiming pull isn't terribly hard in my experience, you shouldn't need to spam pull just to hit it, this is just a nerf to the tactic of repeatedly pulling someone. Now, if you pull someone and they tank it, they're free to dash away for a moment instead of being almost immediately at risk from another pull.

Also, now that I actually think about it, I suppose this probably slows down the speed of a Pull>Slash combo. In the public build, Pull>Slash is so fast that with Pull 3, even if the enemy isn't knocked down, the slight disorientation from the displacement combined with the speed of the followup slash mean you can probably still kill them. This nerfs that, potentially giving them enough time after tanking the pull to dash out of the way of the followup slash, or at least get their bearings and shoot you. Maybe. Maybe.

Edit: For anyone wondering, conversation with Tempest basically confirmed there's issues with this pull tweak and the pull tweak will presumably be reverted soon.

 

[Liniyka_xddd]

FP drains: 0.95 while running, 0.65 while blocking, no FP debuff, constant 1.0 regen.
Does that mean it actually takes more time to drain a saberist on beta?

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

why =\
for pull u need to look right on target. it's harder to pull someone and pull cost in points is higher than push for example. why change it?

Pull has no punishment for mistakes. There is no risk involved beyond the FP cost, which is very low. A very cheap and frustrating strategy is to spam multiple pulls in a row on a walking target. Essentially first force the target to be within range of your saber. The target cannot react to being pulled by running out of range for a brief split second because the next pull can occur right after the first. This cooldown gives room for counterplay. Now there is roughly a 300ms timing window after the animation is completed to actually land shots/run. We're talking less than a split second. Good players will benefit from the ability to make snap decisions.

Overall fond of most of these changes on paper. Looking forward to testing them thoroughly tonight.

Things I am personally paying attention to in particular, which to me seem to be the biggest design-wise:

• Does the blob knockdown rule feel inconsistent and unrewarding
• Does the ion cooldown reduction make it absolutely pointless
• Does the pulse shock buff affect gameplay significantly
• Is the linear FP drain function erratic in that it results in unpredictable drains
• Can the removed grip cancellation result in frustrating behaviour

 

[k4far]

Drains are much better than in previous BETA less randomness with view based factor removed and blocking multipler being static.

Super Push is kinda useless, you can still do it but increased window on Pull made it impossible to use against good player since you get no spare time.
Arc has to hit 19 times in a row with his pistols to drain running Sith. Bowcaster would drain me while I was running in about 8 succesful regular hits.
Pistol kills (100HP unit) in 2 hits - regular damage should definitely remain like this.

 

[Lessen]

Does that mean it actually takes more time to drain a saberist on beta?

Hell no, because (as I also just wrote in Discord), there was some other hidden IDR-related logic for blocking, that basically got removed in favor of making the code simpler. At least that's my fuzzy understanding based on Tempest's explanations. Live's block multiplier is 0.5x, and could be said to be even lower than 0.5x because of the other logic, meanwhile beta's block multiplier is 0.65x. Although admittedly the FP-regen debuff-on-block is gone so a blocking player regenerates at full speed, as you noted.But The net effect from what I've seen is that blocking is weaker: still reasonably effective, but the ridiculous infinite tanking is gone. And "running block" is buffed. (1.2x to 0.95x)

bUUUUuuUUUT I do have to admit I haven't tested this exact beta version yet, and I don't remember the exact circumstances of my previous beta experiences, so it's possible I'm not entirely up to date, and it's possible there's secretly major flaws. Like what k4 just said about ARC having to hit 19 times in a row to drain a running sith sounds rather absurd. If that's true then that's very silly, but it seems strange so I'm going to assume it's not true and that k4 has flawed testing methodology. I mean, he also failed to specify what range he was referring to.

(Edit: I was wrongggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggg, mostly.)

 

[Liniyka_xddd]

So we did some FP drain/damage testing with @k4far and the results are pretty weird to say the least. The damages have increased all around the board, no surprises there. But FP drains seem broken, unless you actually intended to LOWER them. Long story short, it now takes a LOT more shots to drain running saberists, while blocking drains have only changed a little.

Here's the summary of our test - mb2 beta fp drains

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

Like what k4 just said about ARC having to hit 19 times in a row to drain a running sith sounds rather absurd. If that's true then that's very silly, but it seems strange so I'm going to assume it's not true and that k4 has flawed testing methodology. I mean, he also failed to specify what range he was referring to.

If there's a linear function that's based on distance controlling FP drains, it is impossible to have a reliable statistic unless all targets are drained from the exact same range.

Part of the reason why I think static values like we've had so far as opposed to a linear function could work better is that it could be easier to balance in the long run. Linear/Curve functions tend to be surprisingly erratic when combined with a myriad of multipliers. Multipliers stack and this results in very outlandish figures that can give jarring and unpredictable values. Even in modern RPGs multiplication is often handled through addition rather than actual multiplication.

Like let's say how armour works in most RPGs:
Mithril Helmet +20 defense
Rune Chest + 40 defense
Bronze Legs + 5 defense
Total: +65 defense

This is then used as a single damage reduction modifier. This results in a very predictable and stable armour modifier. If some instance is providing unwanted results, it is a simple equation to fix as it does not cause significant complication.

Meanwhile inside MB2's system basically:
Damage * Distance * (Blocking OR Non-blocking) multiplier * (was not deflected OR was deflected) multiplier * (Jumping OR Not Jumping) multiplier

Even at best scenario we can have a lot of variance just because of how multiplication behaves. Just as an example with two multipliers 24 * 0.6 * 0.6 = 8.64 will be drastically different from 24*0.7*0.6 = 10.08. With each accumulative shot, the difference gets bigger and bigger.

This results in very insane variety assuming the modifiers have big differences. This is what I am the most concerned about. This is why the distance based calculation might result in very erratic outcomes from two seemingly similar situations just because of a 0.1 difference in multiplication.

 

[k4far]

We should go more towards drains out of OPEN and after that increase them slightly and then do some damage balancing to specific weapons. I really liked extreme drains out of last OPEN BETA but I have to admit they were too harsh. I am hoping for something between those drains from BETA 3 and OPEN as it's now - would be great!

This is why the distance based calculation might result in very erratic outcomes from two seemingly similar situations just because of a 0.1 difference in multiplication.

Entire testing was done from pretty close. I could lay flat on the floor and reach @Liniyka_xddd who was firing at me.

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

Drains are feeling minimal. Currently up close at facehug range the drains are roughly what the static IDR values are. Before then the drains are essentially 0 due to the FP regen being so fast.

FP drains become insanely big at facehug range for high ROF weapons like the CR3.

Overall the drains feel like a rubber band that tightens towards the end. So any increase to these drains will result in high ROF weapons dealing insane damage while lower ROF does nothing. I'm leaning on removing the linear function entirely in favour of a static value.

Ions are still very much worthless vs gunners besides SBDs and Dekas. Don't get the amount nerfs.

Secondary nades can bounce off of Jedi.

Pulse mad OP. The duration of the stun is about 1 second too long.

Gunfights still feel great.

 

[MuscBodypillow]

Meanwhile inside MB2's system basically:
Damage * Distance * (Blocking OR Non-blocking) multiplier * (was not deflected OR was deflected) multiplier * (Jumping OR Not Jumping) multiplier

Even at best scenario we can have a lot of variance just because of how multiplication behaves. Just as an example with two multipliers 24 * 0.6 * 0.6 = 8.64 will be drastically different from 24*0.7*0.6 = 10.08. With each accumulative shot, the difference gets bigger and bigger.

This results in very insane variety assuming the modifiers have big differences. This is what I am the most concerned about. This is why the distance based calculation might result in very erratic outcomes from two seemingly similar situations just because of a 0.1 difference in multiplication.

Honestly there are so many ways to rework the formula. The question should be: Do we/you want something that take into account such state or not. And also the multipliers are simply binary option so that makes reworking the formula even easier. But just doing multiplication sequentially is bound to go wrong at some point. What would be interesting would be to combine the modifiers in some way and then modulate the damage by that value.

The optimal way is often to take into account the desired input variables, the desired output/behaviour and then work the alg to fit that behaviour, check the plots and then implement.

 

[Lessen]

@Liniyka_xddd @k4far my bad for saying such confident things about this drop's FP drains without experiencing them myself, didn't realize anything had been changed that would result in a dramatic difference relative to the last drop.

 

[Lessen]

Ions are still very much worthless vs gunners besides SBDs and Dekas.

"Still"? Do you mean "still" relative to Live, or just in the Beta (thanks to the 75% duration)?

Cuz in Live they're not worthless against gunners at all.

(derp, didn't mean to double post, zoned out)

Also, I may be misunderstanding the nature of the linear function... but... couldn't it easily become fine if the "minimum range (maximum ramp-up)" was set like 2-4 feet away from the gunner, the "maximum range (minimum damage)" was set.. very far away from the gunner, and these values weren't terribly different? (i.e. not very strong IDR effects, and well-defined "extremes." A very gradual ramp.)

Before I continue that thought, slight tangent: If we're continuing in the direction of "Jedi always regenerates FP at full speed" then by design we're necessarily heading in a direction where Jedi should run out of FP pretty quickly under accurate fire, but should also be able to get all their FP back if they evade well. Is that the direction we want to head in? It arguably increases Jedi 1vX strength a lot against baddies, but it ALSO means Jedi 1v1 against an actually good gunner could be nearly impossible. Or, if you balance it so a good gunner really has to work hard to drain, then you've made the skill curve for "not getting face-rolled by jedi as gunner" too high, probably.

coming back to drain specifics, I'm gonna say that if FP regen is real fast, max-ramp-up drains should be real high, and, in my opinion, even max-distance (min-ramp) drains on CONSISTENT SHOTS should be high enough to significantly drain, because at long range even with higher shot speeds a saberist can easily evade to keep from being hit consistently. I think.

... but then again, the exact balance of all this also depends on how effective Knockback is, too. I mean I don't really wanna nerf Jedi to a point where their only valid anti-gunner option is ambushes, although I wouldn't mind nerfing them to a point where their only valid solo anti-gunner option against a good gunner is Lightning/MT. :thinking:

 

[Deleted member 1872]

Any news regarding saber combat though?
I may be in the minority with my opinion on this but I've never cared for saber perks - I think I mentioned this in a comment some time ago but I just feel as though the perk system suggests that there is a preferred way, or even a best way to play any one particular saber style concerning combat tactics, rather than leaving that up to the player using that particular saber style (whatever that may be).
Granted, I've only been playing MB2 since the late 1.3 days so I may not have enough information to build a strong argument off of - just figured I'd leave my two cents here while I can.
I miss old purple

 

[Lessen]

Any news regarding saber combat though?

There's an entirely separate saber (dueling) beta which is somewhat stealthily proliferated by Tempest (I guess). He sends a link to a google drive of files. You could probably get into it if you asked him directly on Discord or something. Although maybe I'm wrong about that and he's actually super selective about who he invites and this'll just lead people to bug him about it. Maybe.

This beta right here is essentially the "Gun" beta, or the "Gun vs Saber" beta.

The reason they're split is cuz the gun beta can be run entirely with changes to the server, while the saber beta requires changes to the client, so the saber beta takes more setup.

 

[GoodOl'Ben]

"Still"? Do you mean "still" relative to Live, or just in the Beta (thanks to the 75% duration)?

Cuz in Live they're not worthless against gunners at all.

(derp, didn't mean to double post, zoned out)

Ions have an insanely long setup. Anyone getting hit has a two week's heads up. You'll be behind cover before there's any risk for severe risk. I've never seen anyone use ions so good against non-droids that the degree of these nerfs is in any way understandable.

Also, I may be misunderstanding the nature of the linear function... but... couldn't it easily become fine if the "minimum range (maximum ramp-up)" was set like 2-4 feet away from the gunner, the "maximum range (minimum damage)" was set.. very far away from the gunner, and these values weren't terribly different? (i.e. not very strong IDR effects, and well-defined "extremes." A very gradual ramp.)

This is how it is in current live. And also how I think it should still be. This constant linear function gives so much inconsistency due to its steepness. The moment it will stop giving that is most likely when it's so narrow that you might as well not have it.

Before I continue that thought, slight tangent: If we're continuing in the direction of "Jedi always regenerates FP at full speed" then by design we're necessarily heading in a direction where Jedi should run out of FP pretty quickly under accurate fire, but should also be able to get all their FP back if they evade well. Is that the direction we want to head in? It arguably increases Jedi 1vX strength a lot against baddies, but it ALSO means Jedi 1v1 against an actually good gunner could be nearly impossible. Or, if you balance it so a good gunner really has to work hard to drain, then you've made the skill curve for "not getting face-rolled by jedi as gunner" too high, probably.

The increased HP damage is there to offset this. Mistakes will be more significant. Failing to achieve that, I would be fine with going back to current live. Its design is great for most part. Possibly nerfing some timers would go a long way to achieving the result of improving comeback potential just as well as this re-design is attempting to do.

coming back to drain specifics, I'm gonna say that if FP regen is real fast, max-ramp-up drains should be real high, and, in my opinion, even max-distance (min-ramp) drains on CONSISTENT SHOTS should be high enough to significantly drain, because at long range even with higher shot speeds a saberist can easily evade to keep from being hit consistently. I think.

... but then again, the exact balance of all this also depends on how effective Knockback is, too. I mean I don't really wanna nerf Jedi to a point where their only valid anti-gunner option is ambushes, although I wouldn't mind nerfing them to a point where their only valid solo anti-gunner option against a good gunner is Lightning/MT. :thinking:

Knockback currently isn't really big enough to matter in most instances. I think the drains should be static within IDR like they used to be.