Disarms for Katas?

Discussion in 'Feedback & Gameplay' started by Melee Mando, Apr 9, 2019.

Tags:
  1. Melee Mando

    Melee Mando Internal Beta Team

    Posts:
    21
    Likes Received:
    16
    Interesting idea I thought of:
    What if melee katas ("grabs" for the uninitiated) were changed to disarm the opponent? For non-force users, this would mean a way to snatch guns from enemies without needing someone with Pull on their team grabbing them for them. It could also add a very risky way for gunners to engage saberists in close range, with a potentially huge payoff. For disarming saberists, it could be implemented to either snatch the lightsaber and give it to the gunner, or to simply drop it on the ground until it is pulled/picked up like a normal saber throw or disarm does, giving the gunner a change to shoot the unprotected force user. Obviously, this would only take the equipped weapon of the person getting hit with the kata, so other weapons on their person would be safe from snatching and ready to use as a backup.

    The rest of the fistfighting/melee system in this game is damn near perfect in my opinion, and is probably the single thing that keeps me constantly coming back. This is the one change I feel might make it better, aside from standardizing the getup speeds among classes.
    Thoughts?
     
  2. cannonfodder

    cannonfodder

    Posts:
    33
    Likes Received:
    10
    Problem is that kata's arent entirely that hard to get. if you knock over a saberist and they do any getup other than the quick getup, that can be a free grab if you time it right (and its not hard to time). Not only are you doing around 50 hp damage, you are also throwing them onto the ground AGAIN, so now they are 50 hp lower, have to do a getup animation, and are missing a gun. This would be a dead or severely wounded gunner with little options to fight back every time.

    If this were to be added i'd make it so its a possibility of the 3 normal kata animations:
    • UNCHANGED: W kata (punching them in the gut) would do 50 damage and throw the gunner back to the ground and no disarm
    • UNCHANGED: S kata (hulk smashes loki) would do 50 damage and place them infront of you not staggered and no disarm
    • No-movement kata (choke hold into 50 damage tumble?) REPLACED WITH: No damage to 20 damage done and disarming them with no stagger.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2019
  3. Melee Mando

    Melee Mando Internal Beta Team

    Posts:
    21
    Likes Received:
    16
    I don't like that idea mostly because it involves replacing something that already exists in the (in my opinion) near-perfect melee system. I think the disarms would be inherently balanced by the fact that if you miss your kata, you're basically fucked. Also saberists can easily avoid the follow up kata if they just point their getup hop/roll away from the person that knocked them. Sometimes that's not even necessary, because they'll just get kicked far enough out of range. As for gunners, most, if not all, have the option to take a secondary weapon, so they're perfectly capable of whipping that out. Usually in the case of pistol weapons, it's required and un-unequipable. Worst case, they can always try to kata you themselves and steal their gun back.
     
  4. cannonfodder

    cannonfodder

    Posts:
    33
    Likes Received:
    10
    The point i'm making is that once you kata and throw a person, they are KNOCKED OVER and are missing their main weapon, you just did 50 damage to them, and now both you and your entire team can pump several shots into them before they can get back up, AND they no longer have their main blaster. Yes they have a pistol to use, but thats a pistol. They are now 50 hp lower, cant move or shoot because they are knocked over, and they can have an entire team shooting at them, they are not in a good position at all, and can hardly do any real damage back to the enemy team IF they dont die from being mowed down instantly

    If a jedi decides to use a kick getup towards or away from you, If you hold crouch, W, and punch, then the hold both M1 and M2 at the proper timing being when they are back on their feet. You will immediately grab them, they can not get out of this grab unless YOU mess it up. Same with the roll getups.

    If you miss a grab you are not screwed, you can swap weapons during the grab animation and it'll let you move again. So after you whiff the grab, you can immediatly move back to cover, run out of the way of a saber swing, or start trying to manually dodge some blasterfire

    Most gunner getups are slow by default, where only the Arc/BH/Hero get roll getups. no matter how far you knock them over with a kick, you will ALWAYS have time to run up to them and get a free kata. Especially with insta grabs being a thing. and most gunners who try to kick over jedi/sith up close will try to use the legsweep which doesn't knock the jedi any distance away at all, they'd always have time to do the Punching into a free kata.

    The idea I proposed doesnt remove anything at all from the current grabs, all 3 grabs right now drain 50 hp, but one of them doesnt knock them on the ground immediatly after. All my idea does was replace one of the 2 grabs that knock them over again with your disarming perk at the cost of less damage. You are not forced to use this perk, if you hold W or S it will still do 50 damage, but if you hold nothing at all, It'll disarm them.

    And kata'ing them back to get their gun back? I can assure you that once a gunner takes your gun away, they will immediatly begin to fire at you with their own weapons. The only real chance you will have to kata them to get your gun back is if a friendly jedi/sith immediatly pushes over the gun thief so you can get a free kata on them. AND you'll only get your gun back from them if they currently had it equipped, If you lose an E11, and then steal back the A280 that they were currently holding, you just stole back a gun that you have 0 ammo for, so now you STILL cant use a main weapon. If one of your other teamates happened to kill the person who took your gun, then the gun is gone. theres no getting it back.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
  5. Melee Mando

    Melee Mando Internal Beta Team

    Posts:
    21
    Likes Received:
    16
    The "problem" you describe katas having exists regardless of whether they disarm people or not. If I manage to kata someone while my team is in a good position to light them up, then I don't think they should be likely to survive. Also, no. Insta-katas are a thing, but they're not as easy to pull of as you describe, and certainly aren't guaranteed off of any old knockdown on a jedi, especially if they getup in a direction away from you. (Source: I melee a lot, it's pretty much all I do in this game.) If a gunner jumps into melee range of a Jedi, risking getting m1'd instantly, and manages to land the kata, I think they deserve to disarm the Jedi, even if only momentarily.

    Admittedly, this could screw over some gunner classes, but I believe everyone should start with at least the BH/Hero sideroll getups anyway, except for maybe CQC-less soldiers. Infinite back-kata on slow getup soldiers is a thing that exists already, so that already hurts them more than a disarm could. If everyone getting siderolls is not a thing that's going to happen, maybe disarms should only happen off of a standing kata? As in, the person on the receiving end hasn't been knocked down in the last three seconds or so? Something like that, I dunno.

    I don't like replacing an existing kata and its animation with disarms, and instead feel it should be an added perk of getting them into any kata at all, maybe making an exception for back-katas. When it comes to landing katas, every little bit of movement in a direction helps, so it's not always guaranteed that you'll be able to pick the animation you want, which in turn, while it's not technically RNG, makes it feel like there would be a degree of random chance to getting disarms, and that's never fun.
     
  6. cannonfodder

    cannonfodder

    Posts:
    33
    Likes Received:
    10
    The problem I describe does exist without disarms, the thing i'm trying to point out is that by Adding a disarm, you'd be making it a BIGGER problem, you'd only be making it worse for the person being kata'd. since adding a disarm would only make it bigger, thats why i'm proposing a drop off so that its not straight up OP.

    You can't buff a move to the ceiling and not to add a balancing factor
     
  7. Melee Mando

    Melee Mando Internal Beta Team

    Posts:
    21
    Likes Received:
    16
    "straight up OP" and buffing it "to the ceiling" are a bit of a stretch, no? Hence why "problem" was in quotes in my previous response. It'd still be a niche strategy with a fairly small chance of success unless the kata-er sets up their ambush well, in which case, most other shooty/sabery/explody/forcey things would work well too. The whole point of this is to buff melee a little and give it some more utility, and it's absolutely possible to buff something without nerfing another part of it.

    Anyway, if you insist that it's OP and needs some kind of trade-off, what do you think of the idea in my last post, that the person has to have been standing (as in not knocked down, not necessarily standing still) for the last X seconds for it to disarm? Alternatively, how about if instead of the kata-er straight up taking the gun, it gets knocked out of the victim's hands, into the air or in a random direction? This way both parties can scramble to grab it after the kata finishes.
     
  8. Jeob

    Jeob

    Posts:
    107
    Likes Received:
    87
    I like the idea, I often thought about adding perks for the 3 forward katas, so there would be a reason to use a specific one. Well the grab (stationary) kata has already huge advantage over the other 2, that being you can infinite classes with flipcoin getup easily if there is a wall behind them. So I'd add this perk for the S kata, and the forward (W) kata should get something else, let's say 75 dmg instead of 50, that would be a good reason to use it I guess.

    Well if you kata someone while you have teammates with you, I think the guy getting kata'd is fucked whether he gets disarmed or not. Most likely he won't even be standing up after the kata (gets sniped, sabered), or even get sabered/shot during the kata animation (along with you sometimes lol, tkers).
    Bringing up team advantages isn't a good way to discuss any ability. But if you bring it up then we should consider the opposite scenario when the kata'd player has teammates nearby. I could argue that this ability is useless, since you never even get to complete a kata, cause there are other enemies who kill you during the animation.

    Actually this feature would rarely take effect imo, since:
    Mostly people get kata'd in melee. Meleeing usually takes place when both players agree on it. If a gunner is using a gun, it's rare that he's gonna get knocked down by a melee kick (unless teamwork). Flying kick around a corner works the best, but even that's not good against a gunner with high awareness. So if you use a gun and get knocked down by a melee guy, then you screwed up big time and I think losing a gun is acceptable in that case. Especially when we compare this scenario to a fight with a jedi/sith. You're dead if you get knocked down by a push and you don't even have to screw up that much to get knocked down by a push.
    EDIT: Using alt frag nade+kata to steal clone rifle/e-11/t-21 from flip coin getuppers would be a serious threat and because of this I understand if someone wouldn't want this disarm feature.
    The scenario against jedi/sith raises more questions, cause that happens more frequently. Although mostly to newbie jedi who don't use quick getup and often use the forward getup, which is the easiest to melee kata. Basically I feel like this lightsaber disarm mechanic would just make the game more frustrating for newbie jedi, wouldn't affect experienced players' gameplay much. They rarely get kata'd by gunners unless they decide to melee, but in melee this disarm would have no effect. Jedi vs sith duels is more concerning, after slap knockdown disarm with kata would cause a riot, I'm sure. I think this is the reason why most players would be against this feature.

    I also like the idea, cause this would add to the rape factor in multiple vs 1 scenarios. As mentioned before, a jedi can push down a gunner and then a guy with melee can snatch the gun. This would be totally cool imo, since usually the jedi wouldn't let someone kata their knocked down target, they would just claim the kill for themselves. So to steal a gun, teammates would be working together which is always nice.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2019
    Melee Mando likes this.
  9. Melee Mando

    Melee Mando Internal Beta Team

    Posts:
    21
    Likes Received:
    16

    Still don't like the idea of replacing an existing kata because it isn't always possible to choose which kata you want to do. I'm also very against buffing one to 75 damage because that would be a major shake up to melee balance and I'm happy with it the way it is.

    (Edit: Also, I'm pretty sure wall-bullying gunners isn't unique to the stationary kata. The forward one can do it too.)

    For nade CR/E11/T-21 snatching, I can see it being a little bit of an issue, but it's still possible to cycle your weapons while knocked down, so the gunner could "hide" their gun to protect it when they get knocked over. However, I'm not sure if MB2 works off of the selected weapon, or whether the animation has played to put it away/pull out a new one, but I do know there's a delay between the two sometimes. That's something I should look into one of these days.

    Good point on the Jedi fights, that's not something I gave a ton of thought to. I might be wrong, but (certain?) katas on Jedi already turn off their saber, don't they? This wouldn't be too much of a buff on top of that. Alternatively, Jedi could be immune to kata disarms entirely, but they probably don't need any more advantages over gunners than they already have. The best workable solution imo would be that this ability could be for non-Jedi only, because Jedi already have a method of snatching guns via Pull. Still, this would hurt a little from a realism perspective as I don't see why a gunner should be able to grab someone's weapon and a Jedi couldn't, but I guess there's already an existing disconnect here as Jedi can't pick up Pulled weapons anyway.

    Appreciate the feedback!
     
  10. Rosh+

    Rosh+ Internal Beta Team US Official Server Admin

    Posts:
    255
    Likes Received:
    388
    proposed changes will not happen due to disinterest on part of the development team, even if some of them are interesting, the dev team would rather work on sabers(and guns), ime.

    i think system for disarms is perfect as it is now, for most gunner classes, any sort of knockdown can be either a death sentence, or a heavy maiming for those of the classes lucky enough to be able to side-roll; this is true for gunner v gunner, melee v gunner, what have you, and this problem is even further exacerbated when it is saberist v gunner.

    this is not even mentioning the inherent issues with attempting katas in open anyways, it is usually not the wisest choice because of the way kata works in of itself.

    i will go from fw perspective

    you have a limited health pool, that you need to have as topped up as possible to compensate for any risks you may make while playing, this means you need to adapt in order to keep out of sight/out of mind of the enemy at most times; constantly you will be on the move, using sense to look through walls, or popping out to lightning push gunners to make them vulnerable to teammates, or the environment, so you NEED the hp.

    using kata is only viable in a few situations: 1 on 1 with gunner, and you have 80% successful insta kata ratio(on classes that can sideroll, dont need to insta kata on classes that cant), or 1 on 1 with saberist, and you have 80% successful insta kata ratio. in both these situations, there are various ways to kata(backthrows etc), but it is often not worthwhile as opposed to just punching them(katas damage armor THEN health, while punches go through armor) because kata leaves you so open(locked camera, canceling kata results in locked movement, failing kata results in locked movement) that it is nearly certain death should you fail, or should one of their teammates come upon you throwing their comrade.

    even if this disarm was in place, it still wouldnt be worth it because it would be slower, and less worth it as opposed to learning tricks like i have for disarming people, for example:

    1.) most knockdown methods in melee can be followed up by a pull, which can disarm an enemy(when they are knocked down after a kick, they are in the air for a second during which they are vulnerable to pull disarm).

    2.) you can use this trick in conjunction with other tactics such as taking advantage of panic. plenty of gunners will try their hardest to get away after the enormous hp dmg you do to them while they are knocked down through punching, usually i just lightning push them after i see them try to get away after a knockdown, and repeat. this also gives me a chance to repeat sweep kick->pull after they pull out their secondary weapon.

    i could actually put effort into typing all this out in good grammar and such but i must emphasize that people have been talking about melee for years, and it has barely changed since it's inception. the devs simply dont care, and no change will ever come of talking about it.
     
    JamJarBinks likes this.
  11. Melee Mando

    Melee Mando Internal Beta Team

    Posts:
    21
    Likes Received:
    16
    Only looking at this from the perspective of a fw obviously makes it seem unnecessary because they already have a method of stealing guns with Pull 3, but no other classes do. Making katas disarm would simply expand the available options of most classes, and make it so that gunners don't have to rely on a jedi teammate if they want a chance to yoink enemy guns. Actually attempting to do so would be extremely risky, but it would still find situational uses. For example: an ARC trooper flanks, sneaks up on the enemy's BH, and katas him to grab his Projectile Rifle. Now, even if the ARC dies afterward, the enemy has one less Proj to work with, and what might have been a deadly sniper now becomes just another gunner to deal with for the rest of the ARC's team. If the ARC makes it out alive (and let's face it, he probably would because megarolls) he can make use of the rifle himself and become a far bigger pain for the enemy team than he would have been beforehand. This could also serve to give gunners a tiny extra bit of defense against saberists up close. If they take the risk of getting 1-hit and manage to land a kata, they could disarm the jedi and either squeeze off a shot or two before they grab their saber back, or book it down the nearest hallway and put some distance between them.

    As for the rest of your argument, as much as I respect your opinion as MB2's resident Melee God™, that's a pretty shitty attitude to stick with imo. I haven't been around long enough to know just how good/bad everything is in terms of the devs actually making meaningful changes and whatnot, but discouraging people from posting their ideas certainly only hurts the situation further. At worst, nothing at all comes of this post, whatever. With some luck, the devs might consider implementing something like this. Regardless, telling people not to bother because nothing will change only ensures that nothing will change. I realize this probably comes off as a bit preachy, but expressing/spreading that mindset can only make the situation worse. Hell, maybe I'll be as jaded as you in a few years time, but I might as well try to positively impact the game while I can, because trying can't hurt.
     
  12. Rosh+

    Rosh+ Internal Beta Team US Official Server Admin

    Posts:
    255
    Likes Received:
    388
    Not attempting to discourage, merely stating an experienced conclusion from someone who has seen this happen time and again. I've seen many people attempt to bring their ideas into the game, the most zealous among them have either given up hope, or have been banned for dissenting arguments and opinions.

    One guy wrote a whole manifesto for his ideas for the game, joined the closed beta team, got one of the Devs to help him test his ideas, got baited into an argument by a mapper who didn't like him and got banned after he took the bait. If anything, all I'm doing is giving fair warning, at least now that I've clarified the meaning of my 'discouragement'. Moving on to my opinions on the hypothetical situation posed above:

    I'm not looking at it SOLELY from the perspective of only a FW, I'm also looking at it based upon my knowledge of how gunners currently work.

    I feel it would be unfair to gunners to be knocked down, and ALSO lose their weapon to an enemy that can actually use that weapon against them; You might ask: 'Why?'

    Let me preface this by pointing out there are 3 classes that can get up quickly, rolling to the side to avoid gunfire(Hero/BH, Jedi/Sith, ARC), and that even for them, getting knocked down is usually followed by either death, or a maiming; though a less brutal maiming than if they had no ability to get up quickly at all. Jedi/Sith is an exception if they decide to get up with the space bar. Now, for the other classes that do not have an ability to get up quickly, being knocked down is 9/10 times a death sentence(the 1 time they live is a reduction to 35 hp or less) unless the one who knocked them down is incredibly inept skillwise.

    As for the hypothetical, I think you're overestimating how difficult an ARC with a proj would be to deal with. The ARC cannot jump and shoot at the same time without risking fall damage(would have to scope in while falling, or after a jump, and would land before the fire delay), and if you have ever picked up a weapon that's been pulled from another player, you often have to work with an ammo pool that is 1/8 as big as the ammo pool the person who was using that gun had. Combine that with the fact that an ARC that isn't sprinting moves slower than a hero, and you have a semi-gimped hero with maybe 2-4 proj rounds.

    Also, I believe that it would be better if the ARC had to complete the kata in full for this to happen, you shouldn't be able to just grab somebody, cancel kata and have the weapon be gone. This would introduce more problems, however, such as: "How in the hell would the ARC not be sabered or shot before he completed the kata?"

    This goes back to my original point about this being completely implausible in an environment containing many enemies. I've played open for a long time, and on a map like Deathstar, the junction between Main, Ctrl, and Side Bridges are almost constantly run through. You would have to do it on ISOLATED enemies in order for it to be effective.

    Against Jedi/Sith though, I agree after a bit of thought, though I must insist that my conditions for this would be that it only be effective with backthrows.

    I do not agree on gunners being able to disarm eachother without a lot of tweaking. If your main weapon, say a bowcaster is level 3, and you pick up a clone rifle, you get a level 3 clone rifle. This means if teammates were able to do this to eachother, you'd have Wooks suicide rushing Sith with rocket launchers and other such mayhem. It would be fun, but I would be against it in a balance discussion environment.

    If you are going to be insistent on the discussion of this idea, I would recommend you write some things on the idea later on. Ideas for tweaks to make it less broken, and more fair for all. I would join your discussion, but I gave up actively trying to help improve the game awhile ago, too much strife, spite, salt and vinegar involved, etc. Game is dying, if not by the Devs hands, then by the march of software and hardware development, and it's gonna happen soon.

    Best of luck.

    also ur bad at melee lol rekt kid git fukn destroyude my dood
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
    Melee Mando and Templar like this.
  13. Melee Mando

    Melee Mando Internal Beta Team

    Posts:
    21
    Likes Received:
    16
    Fair enough, then, I appreciate the warning. I'll do my best not to get baited into any arguments with mappers or anything of that nature.

    Aside from the fact that I think more classes should be allowed to use fast get-ups, I don't think it's that bad to have guns get yoinked from gunners, because like you said, they're dead 9/10 times anyway. Might as well reward their killer if they tried a risky strategy to do it.

    As for ARC with Proj, I would certainly hope he's not as powerful as a class that invested their points in the Proj to begin with, or this would border on being OP. Still, if he managed to sneak up on one member of their team and grab their gun, chances are he's already in a decent position to do some damage with it, and sniping a sith or two in the back could easily turn the tide of the battle.

    I definitely agree that they would have to do more than just hug them with the kata to take the weapon, especially with how buggy katas tend to be anyway. However, forcing them to complete the entire kata might make this near-useless, so I'd suggest the happy middle ground of having the weapon be taken when the kata first does damage: the first gut punch, the first hulk slam, and the choke-out before throw for the three forward katas. As for the back kata, yeah maybe just have them complete the whole thing. It's fast enough that it doesn't make much of a difference.

    Of course it would have to be done to isolated enemies. This isn't meant to be a full on rush-through-gunfire-and-take-the-entire-team's-weapons idea, rather a utility option for precisely those situations when one comes across a lone, unaware enemy or two.

    For Jedi/Sith, I think forward katas would be more effective if you want to gain some distance/get out of there, and back katas would be better if you're trying to kill them.

    I was, however, NOT aware that picked up weapons match the level of your own. I was under the impression that all dropped weapons revert to level 1 for everyone but their original wielder. That's something I'll have to take into consideration. I can't see teammates being able to do this to each other though, because as far as I'm aware Pull 3 only takes weapons from enemies in its current implementation. For balancing, I already threw out a couple suggestions in my other replies above, such as having kata'd gunners able to prevent their weapon being snatched if they switch to their fists fast enough, or having it only disarm if the person hasn't been knocked down in [X] seconds.

    I appreciate the higher-effort response, and while I acknowledge that the game probably isn't going to be around forever, I'll sure as shit try to improve it while I can.

    also stfu i bet you haven't even studied sugondese martial arts
     
    Tylenol likes this.

Share This Page