A simpler saber system?

[Blazer]

Sure, when I was a kid I could afford to grind and learn shit 24/7, but now I'm only looking to have fun. And let's be honest, it's VERY hard to have fun in MB2 unless you are at least somewhat experienced. And in case of dueling, it's even worse.

I feel the same way. I recently got a full time job and work all days of the week, so when I get home I want to play a fun star wars game, and it's honestly isn't fun anymore because I join a server, and simply can't keep up with the skill or chaos, die, then have to wait 2 minutes to get back into the game.

I only made this thread because if you look at jedi acadamy, you didn't have to spend 400 hours just to learn hundreds of bullshit invisible mechanics, it was just a pick up the controller and GO!

I want to sit down and play a 3rd person star wars game like JKA, and I want to swing a saber, but apparently that means I have to discipline myself and act like I'm doing a chore just to learn how to swing a god damn saber.

I see a bit of people in this thread saying "then this game isn't for you..." Well yeah, I mean if I didn't want to play it, I'd stop. I just feel like it SHOULD BE EASIER to learn how to play the game, and like I've said before, not be a chore.

 

[Blazer]

So basically anything is necessary for balance and only requires some mininal knowledge is excessive?

The specificities if FP drain numbers isn't important, all that's really important to you is when you're in-game and how you balance your FP.

The rest of the stuff you mentioned is basic stuff that every duellist knows and has no issue with, even me. I'm starting to question your 'few years' of playing

"The specificit es of fp drain isn't important"
Well yeah, it is. It's important to know which gun drains an amount of fp so you can change your playstyle accordingly. If you charge someone and swing wildly if they have an auto gun, they will flinch you and destroy you. If someone has a pistol, you can change accordingly to move about more, swing right after he shoots, understanding that a pistol doesn't have the fp drain of an auto gun.

"The rest of the stuf I mentioned is basic stuff that everyduellist knowns and has no issue with"
Well I'm sure if I asked quite a few people, they would disagree.
I notice you say "duellist" because anybody that has time to put all their hours into this game will obviously know those mechanics, but any now-casual player like me has no idea half the things I said, even if they did, I bet they hardly even care or know how to implement those mechanics into their combat.

"I'm starting to question your 'few years' of playing"
Why? Because I don't like in my opinion, an overly complicated fight system? Or that I don't sink in 8 hours a day into the game like you may?
I mean if you don't believe me, you can look on my profile and see that the information there says:
JOIN DATE:
Nov 7, 2016
Posts:
267
Likes Received:
128

And that date is the forum-date joined. I probably started back in 15 sometime.

 

[Tylenol]

Well yeah, it is. It's important to know which gun drains an amount of fp so you can change your playstyle accordingly. If you charge someone and swing wildly if they have an auto gun, they will flinch you and destroy you. If someone has a pistol, you can change accordingly to move about more, swing right after he shoots, understanding that a pistol doesn't have the fp drain of an auto gun

Yet you are never in a situation where you are required to know the numbers of by heart to the decimal point. You simply require the general concepts of them and the number and you can play normally. Learning and applying this information can be accomplished in a (extremely generous) 2 minutes.

Well I'm sure if I asked quite a few people, they would disagree.
I notice you say "duellist" because anybody that has time to put all their hours into this game will obviously know those mechanics, but any now-casual player like me has no idea half the things I said, even if they did, I bet they hardly even care or know how to implement those mechanics into their combat.

Like I just said, to learn about BP, the difference in saber styles, and combos you just need to dedicate some time to read one of the two duelling guides. And you don't even need to focus an hour of them since some certain sections don't even apply to you depending on what your current skill level is.

Why? Because I don't like in my opinion, an overly complicated fight system? Or that I don't sink in 8 hours a day into the game like you may?
I mean if you don't believe me, you can look on my profile and see that the information there says:

No because this isn't the first time I've heard someone claim to have a considerable amount of hours in game and not know about very basic duelling theory (in that situation it was about disarming)

 

[Vegeta]

Just play base jka then

 

[k4far]

Do you want to kill this game, go play Battlefront. If it's too hard for you nobody cares find a different game. This game has any play3rbase at all bcause of complexity you are basically encouraging to kill it.

 

[RenegadeGaming]

This mod wasnt meant to cater to newer players to begin with. Having new people or relatively new people complain about this over and over really sets me and a handful of others off. You consider yourself a casual, you dont play alot, you have a life, good on you. However, WE as a community are not going to eliminate any valid and necessary mechanics in order to make it more "fun, and enjoyable." This is why there are people superior in sabering who are willing to give the information needed to improve upon of what you already know about the game. You cant just play the game for a little bit, not read the saber guide, and then make an account on forums and complain about how the system is so hard and confusing.

Which leads me to this. The sabering system since I've been in game has been more simple than ever. All you have to do is learn the basics and master them, and you will hardly ever die. If you try to put your mind to it, learn the mechanics, make some connections with higher level players. The saber system will be no issue. Until then, I suggest to not complain about the already simple saber system, and actually start adopting the core fundementals.

 

[Revanic]

I don't mind that MB2 has a fairly complex saber system, I just wish it were clearer what my mistakes were. The system itself is not very intuitive. It's absurd that someone with red could start a slow swing, get interrupted, and then proceed to chain several hits off of their own mistake and drain most of your BP. In fact, that happens with other styles as well, it's just most noticeable with red with how slow it is. An interrupt should full stop their combo, they start their next swing from the very beginning, no chaining. Without it, it just continues to look like a mess that I just can't understand.

 

[pelmeņu lauks]

I think I get where OP is coming from, but you really have to look at the history to fully appreciate this game.

See, as a 90s kid, my first encounter with Jedi Outcast 2 was a demo version from a gaming magazine CD. The magazine was called "GAME.EXE", it was translated from Russian and it was always a treat when my dad brought a new issue home after work with new video games to play. I got to play games like Max Payne, Serious Sam 1st and 2nd etc. Even though they were just demos, I didn't care, I was a kid. It was like playing with action figures but on a computer screen. (it was a time before internet as well, at least in fucking Lithuania)

This is the part I was replaying the most in the Jedi Outcast 2 demo: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa1jyB5Ee-U&feature=youtu.be&t=8m51s I would always try to find multiple ways to kill Reborn and I was never bored with it.

And frankly, when I came back to play them as full games decades later, to my eyes, they haven't aged a bit. And I think the original Jedi Outcast 2 sabering may be one of the main factors as to why this game remained relevant for such a long time. The animations used in the demo and MB2 are essentially the same, and this sabering system is simply put - one of a kind. You won't find something like that in any other Star Wars game.

Kind of a nostalgia trip post that... My point is: younger players might not appreciate the complexity of JKA/MB2 due to their later gaming background compared to when the original game was released. The original sabering of Jedi Outcast/JKA is one of the main things, if not the main thing attracting new players because there's no sabering system like this in any other SW game. So, younger players may not have the courage to learn complex sabering of MB2 because they don't love old games enough.

@Puppytine @Helix or @Starushka ; You guys may be familiar with this magazine:

 

[pelmeņu lauks]

Sabering is fine, you just have to square up. (I'm not talking about patch specifics, just in general)

 

[Zacho]

I've only played the game for a couple weeks so I completely understand where you're coming from. While I agree that the lack of in-depth tutorials (which the devs are working on, I believe) really hurts newcomers to this game, I don't think it inherently has "too many complex mechanics." There's a market, albiet niche, for incredibly deep and complex games like this because it rewards complete mastery of the mechanics.

Take Team Fortress 2 rocket jumping for example. Pretty much anyone can do the basics of rocket jumping, point at the ground and shoot, but people go absolutely fuckin NUTS on that. People can clear the entirety of a map in a single string of jumps. It rewards people who take the time and effort to master the mechanic.

MB2, I think, is the same. The gunner classes aren't all that complex. They've got a lot of cool mechanics, but overall, it's pretty similar to other shooters of this genre, just with a lot more bullet leading. The saber classes, however, are the "rocket jumping" of MB2. Anyone can pick up a saber and start swinging, and you'll probably get a few kills on some gunners, but it takes a lot of time and effort to become good enough to battle others. If you don't want to take that time, that's understandable! But just because you don't want to doesn't mean other people shouldn't have the option.

The reason MB2 has a rather complex saber system is because once you get good at it, it becomes REALLY interesting to watch, and fight. As the name suggests, a lot of saber fights in this game look like they could come right out of a star wars movie.

As for your issues with blocking numbers, you really don't need to know how much stuff drains. Let me break it down for you

Blasters don't drain too many force points. You can just watch the bar go down, and if you're getting low, back off. Charged shots from pistols do more force damage, as well as heavy blasters from commanders.

Block points are drained for every hit a saber has against you. If you are mid-swing, you will lose more points. The goal in a fight is to keep the momentum up so that your swings are coming out before your opponent's, allowing you to batter down their defenses. If your points get too low, back off and circle them. Keep in mind, they're gonna want to regen BP as well, and you can use that to your advantage to take some time to recharge.

As for PBing, it's really quite simple. As a beginner, I suggest aiming high, because most attacks are either going to be people running straight at you with an overhead attack (from newbies) or attacks from the left and right (as the left/right spam attack is the fastest combo for basically all styles)

If you play with the saberstaff, you can even manual block without aiming, just by pressing your directional keys in the corresponding direction. I believe that trait might be getting removed in the next patch since they want to simplify the different saber styles, so maybe don't get too attached to it, but it's still there.

For now, all I can really suggest to you is to either spend some time on duel servers picking up the skills, or stick with gunner classes. Trust me, you aren't missing much. Personally, I find gunners to be a lot more fun anyways.

Do you want to kill this game, go play Battlefront. If it's too hard for you nobody cares find a different game. This game has any play3rbase at all bcause of complexity you are basically encouraging to kill it.

Implying the playerbase isn't at 200 and bleeding out lmao

Kind of a nostalgia trip post that... My point is: younger players might not appreciate the complexity of JKA/MB2 due to their later gaming background compared to when the original game was released. The original sabering of Jedi Outcast/JKA is one of the main things, if not the main thing attracting new players because there's no sabering system like this in any other SW game. So, younger players may not have the courage to learn complex sabering of MB2 because they don't love old games enough.

This isn't a great argument, dude. Younger people aren't inherently against complex systems. The general casual gaming public doesn't like super complex stuff. OP said themself they have a full-time job, so they can't be that young. I was playing games with this level of complexity when I was 15.

 

[pelmeņu lauks]

The general casual gaming public doesn't like super complex stuff.

But that's exactly what makes them casuals.

Speaking of casuals: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qfb2cPw5IiA&feature=youtu.be&t=35s

 

[k4far]

@Zacho you problem is you know very little how this game sustained itself for so long and you are stupidly suggesting to alter/remove certain aspects. I suggest you play more and longer? What you are suggesting is out of question. This game is at 200 active players for years. Why would we make those people quit by dumbing their game? Seriously, fly away. If mega retards can't grasp this game after tutorials are out it's not for them and it shouldn't change any more for them because target playerbase consists of thinking people capable of learning new things and improving their playstyles over time. Stassin even made dummy crosshair for you, lol. Are you still telling me it's all too hard, too complex for you. I bet you do not even want to put any effort you want instant results and button mashing to be effective.

Get that Battlefront and stop tainting the way people are thinking here.

 

[Blazer]

I understand that putting time and effort is all about getting good and is rewarding to players who actually care and try to get good.

What's NOT rewarding, is playing this game on and off for 3 years, and still hardly understand how I died or what I even did wrong because the second I duel someone I get obliterated by, like I said, 30 mechanics that I read on, but have no idea how it works in-game or applies during a fight when I'm trying to concentrate.

I've never suggested the idea that I thought this whole saber system needs to be rid of and anybody that has a different opinion is wrong, just maybe that it could be a bit more "SIMPLE" like the title of this thread says, because frankly, I still have no idea what to do when I saber fight someone after 250 hours in-game.

Maybe it's cuz I suck

It's probably because i suck.

 

[Blazer]

Also I hear a lot in this thread that if you have any idea what you're doing and you try to do what you're supposed to, you can do pretty good. I know about PBING and I know how to do it, but anytime someone with less than 15 hours fights me in a duel, he usually wins because he just runs around while holding attack and just obliterates my BP before I can initiate any skill-related back-fires on him.

Like I can handle myself well against some duelists, but half the time the dudes who just charge me and start swinging I have no idea what to even do.

The people who DO take it slow and have a civilized duel, I just end up dying after struggling to stay alive and at the end being extremely frustrated because the enemy had 100bp the whole time and I didn't do anything.

 

[StarWarsGeek]

I don't mind that MB2 has a fairly complex saber system, I just wish it were clearer what my mistakes were. The system itself is not very intuitive.

What's NOT rewarding, is playing this game on and off for 3 years, and still hardly understand how I died or what I even did wrong because the second I duel someone I get obliterated by, like I said, 30 mechanics that I read on, but have no idea how it works in-game or applies during a fight when I'm trying to concentrate.

This right here is the real problem. Mechanically, the saber system is pretty simple. Attacking, blocking, swing blocking, pblock, and mblock are conceptually simple. All of the multipliers and modifications that happen based on saber style and player state are what can make it feel overly complex. The saber system doesn't give a lot of good visual feedback to the player IMO. When I lose a fight to someone better than me, I still usually have no idea why I lost even after a decade of playing. I did some swings, they did some swings, but all of my BP disappeared way faster than theirs did.

I think this has actually improved significantly over the past several patches. The red and green circles for body hits and pblocks were a good first step in the right direction. I haven't had much time to play the latest patch, but the pblock zone indicator also seems very helpful to let the player know if they're even attempting to pblock correctly. But the saber system still has quite a ways to go in terms of making it intuitive and accessable IMO. Players shouldn't have to spend hundreds of hours on duel servers just to understand why they won/lost a fight.

 

[Lessen]

I have to discipline myself [...] just to learn how to swing a god damn saber.

See, this game kind of involves becoming a Jedi more than just inhabiting the body of a skilled Jedi. The skill is your own, not your character's. So yes, it takes discipline to learn how to swing a god damn saber. Which is kind of a central element of this game. It's what makes it exciting, at least for the, er, target audience of the game. You may not be the target audience.

So play Clone

That being said I do think the mechanics could be easier to grasp (through both tutorials and better visual indicators especially for stuff like being interrupting or being mblock-countered).

anytime someone with less than 15 hours fights me in a duel, he usually wins because he just runs around while holding attack and just obliterates my BP before I can initiate any skill-related back-fires on him.

slap him and hit him while he's down (with half-swings, or for extra fun do a back-swing special or some other kinda special like a DFA.) (Wee, terminology.)

 

[Zacho]

@Zacho you problem is you know very little how this game sustained itself for so long and you are stupidly suggesting to alter/remove certain aspects. I suggest you play more and longer? What you are suggesting is out of question. This game is at 200 active players for years. Why would we make those people quit by dumbing their game? Seriously, fly away. If mega retards can't grasp this game after tutorials are out it's not for them and it shouldn't change any more for them because target playerbase consists of thinking people capable of learning new things and improving their playstyles over time. Stassin even made dummy crosshair for you, lol. Are you still telling me it's all too hard, too complex for you. I bet you do not even want to put any effort you want instant results and button mashing to be effective.

Get that Battlefront and stop tainting the way people are thinking here.

First off, if you read my post, you'd see I didn't suggest changing anything in it. Your argument was just baseless, and I was calling you out on it.

200 active players for years is not a good number, and you have to be blind to not see that number declining. The saber system is not perfect, as good as it may be, and it can always be improved. That is why the dev team is still working on it, and hasn't just packed up and walked away. Just because you like it a lot doesn't mean it's a perfect system. I've seen a ton of your posts on here and you seem crazy afraid of change in any regard, for better or worse. If this game remains unchanged, the playerbase will be cut in half by the end of the year.

This right here is the real problem. Mechanically, the saber system is pretty simple. Attacking, blocking, swing blocking, pblock, and mblock are conceptually simple. All of the multipliers and modifications that happen based on saber style and player state are what can make it feel overly complex. The saber system doesn't give a lot of good visual feedback to the player IMO. When I lose a fight to someone better than me, I still usually have no idea why I lost even after a decade of playing. I did some swings, they did some swings, but all of my BP disappeared way faster than theirs did.

I've gotta agree with you here, but with that being said, I don't really have any ideas of my own to suggest. I think possibly an indicator for if you're hit mid-swing may help? Also I find swingblocking to be a super weird system since you can't really see it happen which causes a lot of confusion for newcomers. Visual feedback for mechanics like that is mondo important imo. I think swingblocking in itself is a bit of a weird concept, and while I'm not against it mechanically, I also think that if you are swinging your saber, you're inherently supposed to be vulnerable, no? But either way, I don't dislike it, since it does add an element of skill to more advanced duelists.

...anytime someone with less than 15 hours fights me in a duel, he usually wins because he just runs around while holding attack and just obliterates my BP before I can initiate any skill-related back-fires on him.

Like I can handle myself well against some duelists, but half the time the dudes who just charge me and start swinging I have no idea what to even do.

The people who DO take it slow and have a civilized duel, I just end up dying after struggling to stay alive and at the end being extremely frustrated because the enemy had 100bp the whole time and I didn't do anything.

I've only got about a week of playtime and I can already tell you, if someone is running at you spamswingin, that's an easy kill. If you hit them mid-swing you're gonna obliterate their BP, and you can proceed from there. Since they're usually just sprint around you they won't be regenerating any BP. As for the slower duelists, you're losing because you're not keeping momentum, like I said in my earlier post. You're probably stuck on a mental block of not playing aggressively enough. I was there a couple days ago, but I only broke out of it cause I caught it early. That's a hard thing to unlearn. Keep up the pressure on your opponent and you'll get there.

I don't mean to sound accusatory or target you or anything, but if I've got a week of playtime and can handle myself in most 1v1s, that's not a problem with the game, that's a problem with you :/

 

[Gargos]

@Blazer if a newb just charges you sabers blazing then you take him out with a slap and spam back. Even better: mblock them. Their first swing is usually very predictable and they dont swingblock.

 

[Archiiv]

I agree that the sabering system can be very tedious to learn from the perspective of a new duelist, being a new player or not. First thing to do for someone that is genuinly interested in it, is to read either of these guides :
[Guide] The Dueling Compendium
Noel's Dueling Guide [Updated for 1.5!!!!!!!!!!!!]
Also this one for very new player : My First Day in MBII
All of these are well done and can help motivated people that wanna learn, they're are already on the launcher but i wouldn't be surprise if people are actually missing them. Maybe it would be worth considering adding them ( somehow ) into the game, maybe on the front page or even as library thingy ( that you could see while playing on a server ) to increase people not missing them.

Second thing is taking the time to actually practice the mechanics, at first i would focus on only one ( attacking, perfect blocking, comboing etc ) to understand it and how it works ( for some it can be done quite quickly, some others not so much ) until you're pleased with how you can actually apply it on your playstyle.
Third is being patient, you can't and won't learn all in a day but if every time you play you advance your knowledge (even a little bit) and are actually understanding the mechanics behind, you're on a good path to becoming a decent duelist.

I understand not everyone has the time or want to put the time in all of this, it come down to personnal preference and i don't think blaming the mechanics is the solution. Even if you agree/disagree on the sabering build being good or not, it is still the best dueling game mode out there and you won't find any like this one anywhere else ( but if you do, message me PLEASE ).

I actually enjoy spending time with new players that are eager to learn, the most difficult thing being for me not discouraging them from the deep ocean that are MB2 mechanics. And i could see how someone new wouldn't spend time on a hard to learn game that is not very populated.
That said i'm still hoping for the community to grow so : if you enjoy the game, are motivated and think it can help you, i'm ready to spend some time on the dueling aspect of the game with any of you that wanna learn. Just send me a private message on this site or on the mb2 official discord and we'll try to find some time to practice ( GMT+1 for me, so keep that in mind ).

 

[Blazer]

Really, another problem is, like I said, I have 3+ years of this game and have been trying to duel on and off for a while, and here's another HUGE problem:

I read, practiced, and tried all the mechanics I could handle, but once I step in front of someone, I go blank and it's usually just me swinging, blocking when he attacks, and trying to swing my cursor around trying to PB a swing within half a milisecond.
In the end It's just a wild ride of swinging and flinging my cursor about figuring out how the F I didn't pb that guy, then boom im dead. Or, if I'm lucky, he's dead.

And really I'm not a complete scrub at it, I can handle myself and manage to try to keep calm and try to pb and make some good counter swings, but usually within 15 seconds I'm just running with 10 bp left and apparently they're always somehow at full.