Internal Beta Team
- Reaction score
I have only played a little, but I have no desire to spend more time with 1.6 for many of the same reasons you've layed out. It is a boring patch, poorly designed, that makes it feel like you're just waiting for the opponent to defeat themselves rather than working for the kill yourself like in 1.4.9.(BEFORE YOU READ: I've just had some dueling sessions with Hessu on some older patches, I have a clear head right now. I also win almost every duel I have on 1.6 so don't take my opinions the wrong way, please)
tl;dr - I'm not qq'ing. This is honest feedback.
I have heard Tempest's current build is great, but unfortunately I'm not a member of the Beta Team so I'm unable to test it/share my thoughts on that.
So, after a few weeks with 1.6, here are my thoughts (dueling):
It's a step in the right direction, for sure, counters work slightly better than before, but...
Bring back 1.4.9 countering/parrying so we can actually keep the flow of duels going without this constant hitching shitfest.
That patch felt perfect in terms of the flow of duels (except for the MBC and instas).
I won't lie, I'm getting bored of this patch already, mostly due to the fact that barely anything has changed since 1.5 (which is understandable!) but also because fishing for interrupts constantly and backpedalling after my 4th failed counter even on PB is really starting to piss me off.
And this isn't even a "git gud" issue, I'll beat the majority of players on this game in a best of 10 hands down, but it's the way this patch forces me to play that irritates me.
It's frustrating, a bit stale, and overly reaction/timing based to the point that, if you're not off your face on cocaine you're going to spend the majority of your time pissing your saber up your own arse, trying to counter that same old 4x halfswing spam and being interrupted in the process.
Don't get me wrong, that might be what you guys are going for, in which case, I think it's good.
But if you want my personal opinion? Dueling shouldn't be this way.
If I could have my way, what would I change?
Counter window would be extended, so counters/parries could be performed smoothly and seamlessly, with an emphasis on Perfect Block.
If you PB = Counter window would adjusted, so you are guaranteed counter/parry. This rewards PB, but not in a way that would harm players who aren't that great at PB.
inb4 "Hurr durr dueling will be a parry spamfest" slap still works, and can/always be used as a counter to parry spam.
Also, ensuring that counters are guaranteed on PB will make players think a lot more about which zones they want to start their attacks from.
I think right now, a lot of people play like they're braindead against good duelists, I will PB the same swings over and over, and they don't switch it up. This will encourage duelists to switch up their swings more often, resulting in more challenging and interesting duels, and perhaps new and interestnig variants in player fighting styles.
If you fail PB but attempt counter = Similar counter window to the previous patch. Very small window, but still possible with the correct timing.
I think this is an even trade. Interrupt damage would most likely have to be tweaked to ensure that players who aren't great at PB aren't punished too severely for going for a counter and failing, but this would add an interesting dynamic to dueling.
It's going to make people think twice before parry spamming, essentially solving the problem my first suggestion introduces.
Longer duels = Easily implemented by changing damage values and such, I believe. Duels are too fast right now. Too much intensity, not enough substance. Also this is going to allow more mistakes to be made by opponents who are not as gifted in PBC, giving them more of a chance to comeback or stand their ground without having to rely on PB.
If I get more ideas I will add to this post.
Whether anyone will agree or care about my ideas, I don't know and don't really care.
I just think my opinion is worth hearing cos I'm gud.
The countering is messed up and timings are off. It's still a playable patch, but from my perspective it is an incredibly boring patch. I'd even take 1.4 or 1.4.3 over this shit, though of course I would prefer 1.4.9 or even 1.5 with properly adjusted BP/AP and modifiers. Current dueling is a pathetic mess that makes noobs bewildered as to why they lose huge chunks of BP, and frustrates good players because it doesn't reward anything other than backpedaling and going for interrupts.
Some actual feedback for fixes from me would include more steady damage. There were a few things they actually listened to me about in 1.5 but unfortunately they did not put the right values in the patch (stassin reversed teh correct values for attack modifiers that I gave, fucking it up and then when he fixed them in later 1.5 patches, he added other garbage that made those patches shit).
First of all, the difference between PB, bodyhit and saberhit should be taken into account. I believe that bodyhits should hurt A LOT, saberhits should hurt significantly less, and PBs should give you a boon and good countering abilities.
My reasoning for this is that this will make open duels a lot faster, but in a 1v1 finesse situation a skilled duelist would be able to bypass saberhits most of the time.
Let's lay out some actual values to illustrate, though they are subject to change as I haven't been following dueling on the beta for a long time since it's futile as long as the devs refuse to fix anything. Please PM me on forums if devs will actually work on something useful again, then I will gladly assist.
Here is an illustration of a possible reasonable system, though I think the devs should just publicly trial tempests stuff and if stassin is up for it, his stuff. OPEN DUELIING BETA NOW, I DEMAND IT. Anyway...
*Decently High AP modifier
Reason: Helps quick death in open and to kill people who are far less skilled than yourself faster, by your own hand, with your own BP drain, not waiting for them to fuck up and get interrupted or grinding AP on them retardedly like in some patches. That is not suited for open mode at all. You need steady high BP damage potential for open mode. Individual styles should be adjusted accordingly, possibly with perks to individualize them so they aren't just shadows of yellow.
1. Bodyhits = 1.0x BP damage (should be above current BP damage)
2. Saberhit/Old PB = 0.6x BP damage (should be slightly below current BP damage)
Reason for 1 and 2. I want to be able to aim my attacks skilfully to bypass my opponents saber and combo him down quickly. I am especially keen on dispatching open mode players quickly via BP drain alone. ACM dependant damage or interrupt dependant damage is fucking terrible for open mode engagements, and aimed PB is also flawed in this regard.
Putting some value on saberblock/saberpb/neutralblock will allow skilled players another way to get an advantage. It also just makes sense that hitting the tip of the opponents lightsaber vs eviscerating him with a facehug bodyhit should be different logically speaking.
It's fucking retarded otherwise. Bodyhits should NOT be the same as saberhits.
Now, an additional boon to adding saberblock will come with open mode. If you can block 40% of BP damage by making the opponents attack hit your lightsaber, it alleviates some stress for normal players in normal fights and also helps fix 1vX. Now whether saberblock is 20% or 40% I dunno, but I think it needs to exist, partially for open mode players to allow for higher steady BP drains, and partly for skilled players so they can aim their attacks.
PB = +x-amount of BP (maybe you get 4 for light styles and 8 for medium and strong styles, it will depend on the BP damage numbers) and access to smooth countering.
The above is basic. You could also add in a very mild but progressive ACM with a rather swift decay to make things more interesting for skilled duelists and to help differentiate the styles. ACM does not carry over from style to style. The main concept is that it is very quickly lost and gained depending on what happens in an engagement.
Let me give a simplified example of what I mean by progressive ACM.
YELLOW STYLE EXAMPLE.
No combo restrictions on ACM gain.
1 bodyhit = 1 ACM regardless of whether it's first hit, combo hit or halfswing.
1 ACM = +1 BP damage on attack
1 ACM decays every 2 seconds of not attacking
1 saberhit = 0 ACM
(Yes, you get no ACM if you hit the saber and not the body! What a crazy concept, right? Getting ACM from hitting the tip of an opponents saber and running away should not be a thing)
1 PB = -1 ACM
(Yes, if you PB, you get to remove 1 ACM from the opponent. Remember it's fast gain and loss and dynamic. It's not meant to be something you save up by spamming to empty your BP, then running away like a chicken to regen bp, then come back with a huge ACM advantage. That is retarded design)
BLUE STYLE EXAMPLE.
No combo restrictions.
4 bodyhits = 1 ACM
1 ACM = +1 BP damage
1 ACM decays every 8 seconds of not attacking
1 saberhit = -1 ACM
1 PB = -1 ACM
(Blue = defensive tank style for more drawn out tactical combat)
RED STYLE EXAMPLE.
Can only gain 1 ACM per combo, doesn't matter if halfswinging or comboing, only 1.
1 bodyhit = 1 ACM
1 saberhit = 1 ACM
1 PB = 1 ACM
1 ACM = +2 BP damage
(Form V aggressive style meant to overwhelm opponents defenses)
Can also start adding other things like making red ignore interrupts, but I don't want to get too complicated. This is just a simplified illustrative example of what one might start doing to make a better, deeper dueling system. All numbers are ofc just pulled out my ass and subject for change so don't take them seriously.
I will also just briefly mention that in order to fix cyan and purple they should both be brought closer to yellow in attack speed so they basically feel like a slightly more defensive form of yellow, and a slightly more aggressive form of yellow. That is the only way to make those trash stances any good.
As for open mode.
REMOVE DR completely because it's retarded. You should be doing as much damage far away as close. A skilled gunner with good aim should be able to rape a jedi from far away if he is standing still. Range advantage should be based on being able to dodge more bullets.
1 gunners drain if he misses no bullets should be able to FULLY drain a jedi in about 10 seconds.
FP regen should tick very fast so that 1 dodge, 1 second of avoiding fire, will give a huge uptick in FP.
Realistically, this should mean that at range, you can dodge more easily and stay alive, but in close quarters a gunner can really lay into a jedi. This makes sense from a gameplay perspective if we ungimp jedi so they can attack more freely rather than making the gameplay slow and stupid like in previous versions where there was flinch and very low fp drain and low fp regen. Boring, slow shit gameplay. It needs to be fast and volatile to allow for skilled ppl to dodge and survive long, and for noob jedi to die fast. In previous patches, you could stand still and tank bullets for over 35 seconds without running out of FP, and then when you went away to regen your BP it took fucking YEARS to regen. This is really shit and unfun design. Fast FP drain, fast FP regen, more force powers = makes for a much more fun open mode experience.
Refer to how Jango Fett rapes Coleman Trebor's FP and destroys him in seconds in EPII. Coleman is a lowtier saberist and jango is a highly skilled gunner. That is approximately how such an encounter should play out in MBII, but if it's mace windu vs Jango, well, just watch the scene from EPII. Jango was close and didn't jetpack away, a few shots deflected as mace advanced and jango got raped.
I don't agree with the ppl like oldben that think swingblock should be removed. Swingblocking slows you down. If anything, with this huge fp drain, if a jedi gets close and swingblocks, it should be an uninterruptible, deadly swing. Maybe keep the Q3 style behaviour that requires fp to block blasterfire during the swing, but allow the swing to carry through instead of stopping it. This needs to be the case with such huge fp drains to even things out. This means that if jedi play the map more and use surprise etc, it's more potent, but if they just stay visible, gunners can adjust. Also remember that if 1 gunner can drain 1 jedi in 10 seconds, 2 gunners can absolute destroy most jedi in 10 sec even if they dodge a bit. Having jedi be deadly in close combat is only fair and reasonable.
As for damage reduction, hp and all that shit, I think that we should completely remove damage reduction from jedi and instead just give them 150 HP baseline. Also, to prevent dying stupidly to secondary grenades or other bullshit, jedi should have passive HP regen up to 50 hp or thereabouts. I think this HP arrangement is fair because we're going for very high FP damage. No longer are we relying on retardedly low drains, and low regen or flinch and tankiness. We are relying directly on high FP drains to lower teh jedi's defences and kill them. That is why I believe this is fair, along with swingblock acting as q3 that prevents all HP damage but is not interrupted as long as the jedi has over 10 fp. if the jedi has below 10 fp and swingblocks and gets hit, his swing will be interrupted in addition to him not being able to block blasterfire with swingblock. This interrupt/flinch behaviour should also occur on non-swingblocks all the time. Swingblocking bypasses flinch. Remove the stupid knockback shit, it is an inelegant solution and makes little sense. Gunners should just have their guns with high FP drain + their gadgets to deal with jedi, and jedi should have swingblock to use skill to kill gunners closerange.
All of the things I've described above almost completely eliminates the noobie jedi OP feeling that many people have had since 1.4. Since a noob will come running straight at a gunner without dodging much, and will swing wildly without swingblock, these two things will enable skilled gunners to completely decimate noob jedi safely. But skilled jedi will have dodge/movement and map advantages + swingblocking to really stand out. If the FP drain vs fp regen numbers are balanced properly, this is a FAR superior open mode experience than anything we've had in many years.
Speaking of open mode, I believe that contact grenades and corpse grenades should be brought back just because they are so fucking amazing and fun to use, I don't give a fuck about balance. You can think of it a bit like extra tools for gunners vs jedi. Also, I've never cared or conc grenades they are dumb, better to give soldiers some utility nades like the commander instead and add contact nades back.
I wrote a bit more than necessary, but hopefully I am illustrating just how illogical and shit the current design of dueling and open mode is, and some possible avenues along which one might approach fixing the gameplay. I don't give a fuck about new game modes or new maps or new gay models from disney starwars. You need to urgently fix the gameplay.