1.4 Open Beta Dueling Feedback
- Thread starter Spaghetti
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No, I think he's referring to the person before him... hopefully.
I really enjoy this new system. People complaining about "fights being too long" aren't abusing the proper ways to get an advantage in a fight. It seems like any time I spectate people fighting with the new system, people will pblock, but hardly ever counter. I think people forget about how much the counters actually change the tide of the fight. I can definitely see fights being a tad bit longer, but not too long to make it draw out and become boring.
Starushka
Movie Battles II Team Retired
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Positives:
- Сlose distance is a thing again, at last. The closer you are to the opponent, the more dangerous it becomes for you both. High risk - high reward in its glory. Thank you Nudge.
- Return of "slap"/"swingblock" mind games. Thanks Nudge.
- Mindless offense is not effective anymore. Smart play and use of all available tools are most welcomed in new iteration of saber system.
- All direction half-swings, instead of just "A" swing.
Negatives:
Ability to swing the same direction in chain should be disabled. It looks and plays ugly.
I retain the right to change my mind in the future
, 5 - 6 hours is just not enough for such complex system.
- Сlose distance is a thing again, at last. The closer you are to the opponent, the more dangerous it becomes for you both. High risk - high reward in its glory. Thank you Nudge.
- Return of "slap"/"swingblock" mind games. Thanks Nudge.
- Mindless offense is not effective anymore. Smart play and use of all available tools are most welcomed in new iteration of saber system.
- All direction half-swings, instead of just "A" swing.
Negatives:
Ability to swing the same direction in chain should be disabled. It looks and plays ugly.
I retain the right to change my mind in the future
, 5 - 6 hours is just not enough for such complex system.
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@Preston I mean the 1.4 saber system is in a good place and not subject to major alterations at this point. We're not going back to 1.3.
Yeah you're quite right about that. Some of my duels end within 10 seconds due to getting 3 PB+counters and just destroying my opponent with it cause he attacked carelessly. Plus, rapey red style and purple ACM accumulators can end duels quickly aswell. But given a skilled opponent, you aren't always able to end duels quickly because he pulls skillful defensive play out of his pocket so you have to carefully chip away and slowly increase your advantage then go for the kill when you've got the sure victory.
Yeah star those are some astute observations indeed, and quite correct mostly.
About the same direction swings, I wasn't so keen on the idea first, but after playing around with it for awhile I find that there's so much freedom to mindgame your opponent with it. And it carries with it greater risk aswell due to PB being stronger than ever and hitting the same direction twice is more likely to get you PB'd than hitting different directions. Still, in some circumstances you can mindgame your opponent by doing a WA+WA+SD combo, or the like. It just frees up more combo's and gives you more options. Can look a little derpy with stances like cyan and purple, but those look derpy anyway. With yellow swings it looks alright actually, Luke EP 6 didn't mind same direction swings, dat spammer
Yeah you're quite right about that. Some of my duels end within 10 seconds due to getting 3 PB+counters and just destroying my opponent with it cause he attacked carelessly. Plus, rapey red style and purple ACM accumulators can end duels quickly aswell. But given a skilled opponent, you aren't always able to end duels quickly because he pulls skillful defensive play out of his pocket so you have to carefully chip away and slowly increase your advantage then go for the kill when you've got the sure victory.
Positives:
- Сlose distance is a thing again, at last. The closer you are to the opponent, the more dangerous it becomes for you both. High risk - high reward in its glory. Thank you Nudge.
- Return of "slap"/"swingblock" mind games. Thanks Nudge.
- Mindless offense is not effective anymore. Smart play and use of all available tools are most welcomed in new iteration of saber system.
- All direction half-swings, instead of just "A" swing.
Negatives:
Ability to swing the same direction in chain should be disabled. It looks and plays ugly.
I retain the right to change my mind in the future
Yeah star those are some astute observations indeed, and quite correct mostly.
About the same direction swings, I wasn't so keen on the idea first, but after playing around with it for awhile I find that there's so much freedom to mindgame your opponent with it. And it carries with it greater risk aswell due to PB being stronger than ever and hitting the same direction twice is more likely to get you PB'd than hitting different directions. Still, in some circumstances you can mindgame your opponent by doing a WA+WA+SD combo, or the like. It just frees up more combo's and gives you more options. Can look a little derpy with stances like cyan and purple, but those look derpy anyway. With yellow swings it looks alright actually, Luke EP 6 didn't mind same direction swings, dat spammer
Exactly, as a staff main as well as using other styles apart from blue and cyan I can easly tell you that when I abused the nudge system with 1-2 hit combos I don't even struggle in most duels, it is as easy as that. But as you see, just because a style does much better with abusing nudge mechanism mean that duel is actually fun?
My answer to that question is no, I did not enjoy any of those duels where I abused mechaics to get some easy wins, my opponents also didn't seem to enjoy duels because they also realised the power of nudge they also changed teh technique to abuse it and in the and we had two dueler having facehugwars, it is only hilarious when you see if you open the distance just a little opponent literally runs to you for the nudge....
Positives:
- Сlose distance is a thing again, at last. The closer you are to the opponent, the more dangerous it becomes for you both. High risk - high reward in its glory. Thank you Nudge.
- Return of "slap"/"swingblock" mind games. Thanks Nudge.
- MIndless offense is not effective anymore. Smart play and use of all available tools are most welcommed in new iteration of saber system.
- All direction half-swings, instead of just "A" swing.
Negatives:
Ability to swing the same direction in chain should be disabled. It looks and plays ugly.
I retain the right to change my mind in the future
Close distance is a thing now yes, in 1.3 there used to be footwork where keeping a little distance was always good idea to be both defensive and offensive, because everyone facehugs now it is kill or be killed without any second chance even it is even worse when those facehug wars last like one round because all both side does is facehug nudge, pb then nudge again.
Swingblock has always been a thing as well as slap, my personal experience is that because first hit deal 1.0* while rest of combo deal 0.5* I never go for full combos but only single hit or 2 combo for some reason it works wonders against full combos.
What im trying to say is, full combos are riskier than the single hits or 2-3 combos which also means you won't be getting knocked down most of the times (Unless you never tried sb combo in 1.3 and still hold combos)
In brief, because single hits and 2-3 combos are mostly more beneficial than the full combo, you have less chance to be knocked down.
With this update, along with mindless offence, Offence itself also died unless you abuse nudge to have more dull duels. Even in 1.3 if you learnt to pb first hit and counter rest you wouldn't even get hit instead you would hit opponent, this is why some people abused counter mechanic but at least you could counter the ''counter'' mechanic. Apart from that I agree you on that there should be a mechanic to stop mindless aggro this is the reason I suggested instead of staff's stagger, other style could be given pblock stop perk with mblocking.
Sir, you were never forced to use ''A'' swing as starter nor in combo. It is the exact reason why people actually took their time to learn combo patterns and if you knew combo patterns you actualy had ''chance'' to pb the other combo hits. This change also killed midcombo mblock. (another staff nerf)
Also ironically, you can literally just do full ''A, A, A, A'' combo which is wrong (Agreed with you on that)
______________________________________________________________________________________
Trying to alter offence was indeed good idea but implementation of it was not the best in my opition.
I believe that before we move on to adding ''core mechanics'' it is indeed better to fix and adjust the current mechanics.
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I hate Nudge, Blue, Cyan and Yellow are Useless in the regards. Getting an opponent using red of Purple NUDGE you and not know where the swing comes from, is difficult for a defensive style, almost impossible. not only that, trying to counter will get you slapped.Positives:
- Сlose distance is a thing again, at last. The closer you are to the opponent, the more dangerous it becomes for you both. High risk - high reward in its glory. Thank you Nudge.
- Return of "slap"/"swingblock" mind games. Thanks Nudge.
- Mindless offense is not effective anymore. Smart play and use of all available tools are most welcomed in new iteration of saber system.
- All direction half-swings, instead of just "A" swing.
Negatives:
Ability to swing the same direction in chain should be disabled. It looks and plays ugly.
I retain the right to change my mind in the future
I see people doing the exact same thing with Defensive Styles.
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Duels Became less Fun from my experience with the Beta.
in 1.3 I had a hard time learning how to play styles. i found some overpowered, and i struggled against skilled opponents.
Now its even a bigger struggle. Nudge Spam, Slap Spam, I find myself losing BP faster, but duels last longer because the combo wont be done if you PB.
running around is also an option but kind of Ruins the Idea of a Duel.
Giving Slap a longer cooldown would be Amazing. everytime you try to combo, getting slapped is Frustrating and annoying. Who Will slap in the right time to Get ACM when you are down, Repeat. PB - Slap - Combo - PB - Slap - Combo. (Missed a PB? no Problem, SLAP)
Cyan Style still Feels very Weak.
I suggest
- Cyan First Swing is now Faster
- Cyan has the Perry Stagger Perk Back (When 2 sabers cancel out)
- Cyan's Defense Has been Increased
- Cyan Now deals slightly More BP damage
Cyan would be great to have as a Fencing Type of Style, Kind of Like Count Dooku. Fast, Agile.
Red - PLEASE buff the BP drain. I did 2 Katas in a row on a Staff user and a combo, the duel Laster 30 seconds more, And of course, i Died by a Gunner.
He was Perfectly still, Lined up for Kata both Times, and yes, I Performed the kata as soon as i got back up and Launched again. to quickly finish off the Staff User, but of course, somehow it failed. Red Feels very Weak Compared to the previous update.
The only way i see myself Using red WELL. Is to Swing run to an Opponent and Half Swing, making the 3rd One stagger.
Or just nudge Spam and go Ham, of course my bp is going to be less than 20% but kills off the Opponent.
Is that fun? No.
Overall All saber Styles need More BP Damage.
Saber Styles need few Tweaking And buffing.
#BuffLightningMorePls
in 1.3 I had a hard time learning how to play styles. i found some overpowered, and i struggled against skilled opponents.
Now its even a bigger struggle. Nudge Spam, Slap Spam, I find myself losing BP faster, but duels last longer because the combo wont be done if you PB.
running around is also an option but kind of Ruins the Idea of a Duel.
Giving Slap a longer cooldown would be Amazing. everytime you try to combo, getting slapped is Frustrating and annoying. Who Will slap in the right time to Get ACM when you are down, Repeat. PB - Slap - Combo - PB - Slap - Combo. (Missed a PB? no Problem, SLAP)
Cyan Style still Feels very Weak.
I suggest
- Cyan First Swing is now Faster
- Cyan has the Perry Stagger Perk Back (When 2 sabers cancel out)
- Cyan's Defense Has been Increased
- Cyan Now deals slightly More BP damage
Cyan would be great to have as a Fencing Type of Style, Kind of Like Count Dooku. Fast, Agile.
Red - PLEASE buff the BP drain. I did 2 Katas in a row on a Staff user and a combo, the duel Laster 30 seconds more, And of course, i Died by a Gunner.
He was Perfectly still, Lined up for Kata both Times, and yes, I Performed the kata as soon as i got back up and Launched again. to quickly finish off the Staff User, but of course, somehow it failed. Red Feels very Weak Compared to the previous update.
The only way i see myself Using red WELL. Is to Swing run to an Opponent and Half Swing, making the 3rd One stagger.
Or just nudge Spam and go Ham, of course my bp is going to be less than 20% but kills off the Opponent.
Is that fun? No.
Overall All saber Styles need More BP Damage.
Saber Styles need few Tweaking And buffing.
#BuffLightningMorePls
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This would make Cyan abhorrently OP, and overall annoying to deal with. I feel when adding a defense increase to something, it's almost silly to also think that adding even the slightest BP damage to it would be considerable.
That wouldn't be a "Fencing" style. That would become the "default" style.
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Change: Overall BP drains have been increased by 1.2 times.
Change: Slightly reduced purple, staff and dual styles' attacking power. Significantly reduced red style's attacking power. Increased cyan's defensive power.
Yellow, Blue and Cyan all received a free +20% BP damage boost in this beta build. This +20% BP damage boost absolutely wrecks stances like Red and Purple, which naturally have a low BP modifier. Also, to say that nudge is useless with these styles is quite a stretch. Yellow in particular, benefits most from nudge after Red and Staff.
Cyan has already had its defensive power increased. As stated above, Yellow, Cyan and Blue all received +20% more BP damage. I think the problem you're running into with Cyan's damage is this:
Change: Consecutive body hits within a single chain now only drain 0.5x as much BP. Only the first hit of a swing chain drains the normal 1.0x amount
Let me start by saying that this change should be removed. There's no reason to make combos worthless. Combined with the already game-changing Full-Perfect Block cancellation of combos, this makes combos totally unviable. Arbitrary restrictions that apply to all stances like these, only serve to encourage one play style over another. (Slap, Pblock counter-swing, +1-2 swing spam, Slap, Nudge, 1-2 swing spam, repeat)
I definitely agree with you when you say Red isn't doing enough damage, and it too suffers from the changes mentioned above. It's now comparable to a weaker Yellow stance that does ever so slightly more damage per swing, has a significantly lower BP modifier, has less hits per combo, has slow telegraphed swings, longer feint recovery times, lacks a Pblock perk, but causes stagger.
However, when you say:
"Overall All saber Styles need More BP Damage."
I get worried because with their present BP modifiers, Strong stances like Red and Purple can't keep up with the damage output of Yellow, Staff, Duals or Cyan. Red and Purple (Red in particular) will be the stances needing BP Damage and Health buffs, if base BP drains go up another 10-20%, not Cyan.
If anything, I think Yellow & Cyan need to have their BP damage output either slightly or significantly reduced, alongside Red, Purple, Staff and Duals. Yellow took no nerfs and got only buffs in this beta build. Cyan also got away relatively unscathed, having received a plethora of buffs to compensate for the loss of its any-time-it-parries BP-Drain perk, and it even got Red's old perk as a consolation prize. Red by comparison, took about 6 or 7 nerfs and got nothing but noob-friendly, restriction-free combos.
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People still think that the parry perk was the reason for Cyan being a pain to fight in 1.3, and it annoys me. The parries did 5 damage, once per combo, if you parried. Sure it added up if you spammed single swings and got parried, but the real strength of cyan was its fast windup time. Which is still a thing, and now Cyan is even stronger in 1.4.
That being said, I think purple and Red are fine, I think yellow is simply too strong. I had an enormous list of changes that would make fighting more interesting, and balanced, but considering what Sev said, might as well not even bother. We're stuck with 1.4's nonsense, it appears. This might actually just make me stick with 1.3.
That being said, I think purple and Red are fine, I think yellow is simply too strong. I had an enormous list of changes that would make fighting more interesting, and balanced, but considering what Sev said, might as well not even bother. We're stuck with 1.4's nonsense, it appears. This might actually just make me stick with 1.3.
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Why can't you guys JUST fix the existing problems with overpowered red and duals? Cyan is not that overpowered anyway if you know how to deal with it (I use yellow). I look forward to red fix, only because I dream about people stop whining how OP it is. Again, 8 points for yellow, which should be the basic style, is ridiculous. This beta is not a step forward, but two steps backwards, when it comes to saber combat. What's more, it's not development of the current version but the total change. Attempts to make better something that is already pretty good, usually end bad, and this modification is very good example of it. Again, I'm not going to get into details because they were well described by Achilles, Alice, Cat lady and Agent. I just hope you consider the feedback we gave you, so we can all have the moviebattles 2 we love.
Chaos the Chaotic
Nerd
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You mean the last build thats only a few months old that most players thought trashed the system
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Precisely I think he means that one. The one that removed all the core mechanics to dueling that made it intricate with every fight, and encouraged spam fest nonsense. I don't see how someone could not like the changes 1.4 will bring unless you simply cannot pblock consistently, or if you are far too aggressive to be a good duelistYou mean the last build thats only a few months old that most players thought trashed the system
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These are your opinions, and with all the respect for them, I will stick to mine. I've been playing this game since b18 and this saber system is the one I like the most, and I have the right to do so. I do not approve spamming, I hate it, but there is nothing wrong in being aggressive.
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Being aggressive isn't wrong, no. Some people are just naturally aggressive in their fighting style in any game and know how to play around that. However. It is not to go unsaid that blind aggression is just boring in a duel environment
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Read: it takes some skill to do, as opposed to no skill before.
xD
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O. There it is.
Chaos the Chaotic
Nerd
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Oh yeah? Slap and punch
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