1.4.5 Sabering Open Beta!

Version 1.4.5 Open Beta Changelog​

This open beta is focused on testing the saber system. Servers will be kept available until the end of the 22nd. See next post for installation instructions and where to post gameplay feedback (Hint: Not in this thread).

• Change: Sense now has a short buffer after being deactivated so that it doesn't get activated again by accident as easily once it's turned off.
  
• Change: Nudge removed from all styles
• Change: Global BP damage modifier raised from 1.2x to 1.4x
  
• Change: Semi-PB removed pending further changes.
• Change: ACM threshhold doubled. Multipliers adjusted accordingly (so the ratio of ACM:multiplier is still the same).
• Change: Slap now causes small knockback even when hitting someone that's blocking
• Fix: Attacks that cause special effects (i.e. staggers, knockbacks, etc) can now trigger the effects on multiple targets instead of just applying to the first one hit
  
• Change: Parrying with no BP will cause you to drop your saber
• Change: Force Repulse is now disabled in Duel mode
• Fix: Using Force Repulse from the ground no longer causes you to get stuck in weird leg animation loops.
• Fix/Change: Can no longer start taunt/gloat/flourish/etc animations while holding block/reload with a saber.
• Fix: Doing specific input combinations with weapon swapping no longer allows for instant attacks
  
• Fix: Spectator camera should no longer go partially into terrain
• Fix: Several (hopefully most) recurring sources of class/join bugs should now be fixed.
  
• Updated: Small tweaks to the BP counter in Duel mode aimed at providing a more accurate measurement of the killer's BP
  
• Updated: Swing damage adjustments
  • First/full swings: 1.0x, +3 ACM on body hit (if not a counter)
    
  • Consecutive swings: 0.90x, +1 ACM on body hit
    
  • Half swings: 0.75x, +2 ACM on body hit
• Change: BP Regen increased
  • Level 1: Increased from 3 to 4 per tick
  • Level 2: Increased from 5 to 6 per tick
• Updated: BP drain for attacks moved from being based on button inputs (holding vs tapping) to being flat drains based on style:
  • Blue drains 5 BP per swing.
  • Cyan drains 5 BP per swing.
  • Yellow drains 6 BP per swing.
  • Staff drains 6 BP per swing.
  • Duals drain 7 BP per swing.
  • Purple drains 7 BP per swing
  • Red drains 8 BP per swing.
  • Not swingblocking during the attack will drain an additional 2 BP
• New: Special moves now cost BP to activate. If you have less than the cost for activating, then you won't be able to use them.
  • Blue Lunge: 10
  • Blue Backstab: 10
  • Staff Backstab: 10
  • Backslash: 10
  • Crouched Backslash: 20
  • Cyan DFA: 10
  • Yellow DFA: 15
  • Red DFA: 15
  • Rollstab: 10
  • Dual Butterfly: 10
  • Staff Forward Butterfly: 15
  • Staff Backflip: 5
  • Staff Left Butterfly: 10
  • Staff Right Butterfly: 10
  • Dual Crouch Kata: 15
  • Staff Crouch Kata: 15
  • Downstab (Single): 5
  • Downstab (Duals): 5
  • Downstab (Staff): 5
  • Duals Front/Back Stabs: 12
  • Duals Side Stabs: 12
  • Purple Crouch Kata: 15
• Change: FP drains for special moves have been adjusted:
  • Blue Lunge: Reduced from 35 to 20
  • Purple Crouch Kata: Reduced from 45 to 30
• New: BP related staggers.
  • Reaching a low threshhold of BP (currently 10) will cause you to do a short stagger when body hit.
  • Threshhold increases by 1 per ACM of attacker
  • Threshhold decreases by 1 per ACM of defender
  • Defending with Blue halves the attacker's ACM threshhold bonus
  • Attacking with Blue halves the attacker's ACM threshhold bonus
  • Stronger stances cause longer staggers
• New: All combo breaks have visual indication in the form of staggers/flinches. Durations of the animations vary depending on the source.
  
• Change: Animation/chaining adjustments.
  • No more instant/teleporting consecutive swings
  • Repeated consecutives can no longer be done. However, trying to do the same consecutive swings twice in a row will still allow you to do a halfswing from the same direction or start a consecutive swing from another direction (no self combo breaking when trying to do repeated consecutives).
    
  • PB counter is no longer instant by default (still retains bonus damage to body hits as well as doubling base parry drains).
    
  • Rate of swing chaining has been adjusted for each style.

Styles:

• Blue
  • Swing count of 2
  • Offense Rating: Decreased by 50%
    
  • Defense Rating: Increased by 5%
    
  • Drains (9 base + 1 per 2 ACM) BP on PB - Can trigger BP related staggers
    
  • 20% ACM bonus on specials
  • Loses 3 ACM when body hit
  • Has fast PB counter swings
• Cyan
  • Swing count of 4
  • Offense Rating: Decreased by 22%
    
  • Defense Rating: Decreased by 5%
    
  • All swings can combo break on Perfect Parry
  • Reduces 33% of ACM bonus to parries from opponents
  • 75% damage on consecutive swings
    
  • Loses 4 ACM when body hit
• Yellow
  • Offense Rating: Decreased by 8%.
  • Defense Rating: Unchanged
    
  • Swing count of 4
  • No BP drain for failing Mblock
  • Increases 33% of the ACM bonus to parries to opponents
    
  • Drains 4 ACM on a PB counter body hit
• White
  • Swing count of 4
  • Offense Rating: Decreased by 18%
    
  • Defense Rating: Decreased by 3%
    
  • Successful Mblock no longer automatically counts as a PB by default
  • Mblock related staggers are buffed compared to other styles
    
  • Mblock Vs Swingblock
    • Gain 3 ACM
    • Drain 3 ACM
  • Large block radius.
• Green
  • Offense Rating: Decreased by 10%
    
  • Defense Rating: Unchanged
    
  • Swing count of 5
  • All swings 0.75x damage without ACM
    
  • Special moves have 50% of their ACM multiplier added into their damage
  • Loses 4 ACM on body hit
• Red
  • Swing count of 3
  • Offense Rating: Decreased by 13%
    
  • Defense Rating: Decreased by 2%
    
  • All non-halfswings cause a stagger. Consecutive staggers have reduced durations.
    
  • Being PB counter body hit drains 2 ACM
    
  • Doesn't lose BP when Mblocked on swingblocks
• Purple
  • Swing count of 3
  • Offense Rating: Decreased by 15%
    
  • Defense Rating: Unchanged
    
  • Deals (6 + 1 per ACM) BP through PB - Can trigger BP related staggers
    
  • Being PB counter body hit drains 3 ACM

Raw offense and defense values for the styles for those that care or that are interested:

Spoiler

1.4.4 (public/live):
Offense ratings from highest to lowest: Red (15), Purple (13), Yellow (12), Staff (11), Duals (10), Cyan (9), Blue (8)
Defense ratings from highest to lowest: Blue (60), Staff (59), Cyan (58), Yellow (56), Duals (54), Purple (52), Red (50)
1.4.5 open beta:
Offense ratings from highest to lowest: Red (13), Purple (11), Yellow (11), Staff (9), Duals (9), Cyan (7), Blue (4)
Defense ratings from highest to lowest: Blue (63), Staff (57), Yellow (56), Duals (55), Cyan (53), Purple (52), Red (49)

Changelog Legend
New - New feature or addition to the game.
Change - Changes to the game.
Fix - Bug fix.
Remove - Removed feature.
Feature - New feature name

 

[jewbacca]

I don't like a style as fast as blue being usable offensively

I can deal with blue being slower. But I disagree that it shouldn't be usable offensively. It just ruins... everything. I just can't seem to find words to explain why this is such a stupid idea.

 

[Jaikanatar]

Like wut? I have to change style just because my opponent started using cyan or blue? That's not how duels work.

Sup duder, wanted to give my two cents on this.

I strongly disagree here. I believe this is how duels work and what makes them beautiful, to an extent.

Perceiving a change in your opponent's approach? (a switch to cyan/blue) Adapting to adjust to said change? (changing your style to deal with the new obstacle) That is quintessential dueling imo. A champion fighter stays champ for a while until someone comes along who can pinpoint a weakness in the champ and use the tools in his toolset to exploit it and win. That is both strategy and having a dynamic mindset. Static fighters end up being beat simply because they are static. Its about adapting to the obstacles your opponent presents, that is like the very definition of a fight, IN MY OPINION.

Carry on

- - - Updated - - -

And don't get me wrong, I hate cyan with a burning passion

 

[jewbacca]

Sup duder, wanted to give my two cents on this.

I strongly disagree here. I believe this is how duels work and what makes them beautiful, to an extent.

Perceiving a change in your opponent's approach? (a switch to cyan/blue) Adapting to adjust to said change? (changing your style to deal with the new obstacle) That is quintessential dueling imo. A champion fighter stays champ for a while until someone comes along who can pinpoint a weakness in the champ and use the tools in his toolset to exploit it and win. That is both strategy and having a dynamic mindset. Static fighters end up being beat simply because they are static. Its about adapting to the obstacles your opponent presents, that is like the very definition of a fight, IN MY OPINION.

Carry on

- - - Updated - - -

And don't get me wrong, I hate cyan with a burning passion

I get what you say. But I'd rather see adaptation through changing tactics, not by changing styles. Not the same thing.
MB2 kinda deep enough already so you may spend a lifetime learning a single style, dude. These are not just glowsticks, we put our souls in it.

 

[MoonmanMoonman]

• Fix/Change: Can no longer start taunt/gloat/flourish/etc animations while holding block/reload with a saber.

i do not comprehend, that's like implementing a bug on purpose.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Slowing down Blue/Cyan would then just make them pointless versions of Yellow. I like how they are, so long as they are not too strong in any direction.

Blue - Defensive Fast

Cyan - Defensive/Offensive Fast (Through parries/range)

Duals - Offensive Fast

Yellow - Neutral Basic

Staff - Offensive Fast

Red - Offensive Slow

Purple - Defensive/Offensive Slow (Through obscene damage and counter swings)

I think this formula works, although staff should definitely be slowed down a wee bit.

 

[Stassin]

I already said this somewhere but from a design standpoint:

"Defensive" should not refer to using mostly PBs and evading swings as a playstyle in order to win a fight (thus not using swings or chains much).
"Offensive" should not refer to using mostly bodyhits and parries as a playstyle in order to win a fight (thus not using PBs or evasion much).

We should not by default associate base mechanics with the ideas of "defensive" or "offensive". Lots of PBs, or lots of bodyhits should both be possible to associate with these ideas. "Defensive" and "offensive" should be understood as follows:

"Defensive" refers to the strategy of prolonging the fight and win over time by wearing down your opponent bit by bit while not wearing yourself down as much and not taking many risks.
"Offensive" refers to the strategy of doing whatever you can to win the fight as fast as possible, even if this means taking big risks at the cost of your own safety.

I don't know these days, but in 1.4.2 terms "defensive" would mean using quick strikes all the time with blue style, in order to try to gain more ACM over time to secure the win. It would certainly not mean using PBs all the time, yet it is completely a "defensive" strategy and blue style was oriented that way. On the contrary, using powerful stagger chains with red would be "offensive", as you would have little chance of gaining more ACM over time against a faster style, and you would drain huge BP, quickly drawing the fight to an end at the cost of your own BP (probably a more useful playstyle in open mode since there you usually don't have much time). But being offensive would not 100% necessarily mean chaining swings, for example i think in 1.3 red had huge BP drains on PB - then being offensive would mean alternating between swings and PB all the time to secure the most BP drains possible, particularly against a fast style which would give you the opportunity to secure lots of PB quickly (since PB didn't combo-break).

In short, with mb2's sabering, being "defensive" would be trying to secure ACM gain over time while being "offensive" would be trying to secure large BP drains quickly.

And of course you would be able to be "defensive" or "offensive" with any style to some extent. Just some styles would be more suited to one strategy by default.

And i'm not saying ACM gain should be tied to "defensive" at all, it's just an artifact of it. You could aim to end the fight quickly using a small ACM advantage, and you could aim to end the fight over time by slowly draining your opponent's BP without letting him ever get back to full (and without relying on superior ACM).

In duels. In open mode the same things should apply, you wouldn't be able to kill a SBD quickly with blue, compared to red; however you'd be safer doing it with blue even if it tooks ages, because the swings are faster and leave you less open so with swingblocks you risk being shot less; and with red, you'd want to take the risk to even do a chain on the SBD, because it might instantly secure you a kill. But at the same time you could choose spamming with blue with lots of risk (would deal decent damage since the SBD dmg reduction cooldown wouldn't reset between different blue chains since blue has very quick recoil), or be very conservative with red without trying to ever chain.

I just hope future systems keep this design principle in mind when associating "defensive" and "offensive" attributes to styles. For both duels and open mode.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

I don't know how anyone could equate a PB with 'offense' considering you literally have to be on the defensive to achieve it...
I feel like you're trying to redesign terminology there, Stassin.

 

[Tempest]

I get what you say. But I'd rather see adaptation through changing tactics, not by changing styles. Not the same thing.
MB2 kinda deep enough already so you may spend a lifetime learning a single style, dude. These are not just glowsticks, we put our souls in it.

I think the thing to note is that there should be inherent weakness/strengths for each style as well as variable tactics (which there really isn't much on either note in the current build aside from very specific cases). One style should not be able to be on equal footing with every other style using the same playstyle/tactics by default. If you use X style and it has issues A, B, or C vs Y style and you adjust your play to make up for ABC, that's fine and how things should work. There shouldn't, however, be something like (the current) nudge where if you're using a style like Red vs Blue (aka easier to interrupt/harder to actually get an offense going against your opponent) where you can just flat out skip or bypass said weaknesses.The only thing that even relatively "balances" out nudge atm is that it makes it so you can't PB when it triggers (given, most of the time when you're triggering it, you're going to be immediately swinging and all that jazz anyway so it's a moot point for bad interaction).

All in all, every style should have some kind of uniqueness to it along with fairly straightforward strengths/weaknesses you play around in general. Combine that with how things used to be where you could alter timing in your chains to try and score interrupts (and interrupts/other timing/skill oriented things actually determined the majority of results compared to now where it's pb counter/nudge fests mixed in with flailing swings around for profit) and that's what would put dueling back into a good place.

 

[jewbacca]

At first you say

there should be inherent weakness/strengths for each style as well as variable tactics

And then

All in all, every style should have some kind of uniqueness to it along with fairly straightforward strengths/weaknesses you play around in general.

I mean no disrespect here, but I think these statements contradict each other. You either have "uniqueness", with gameplay focused around some idea, or you have variable tactics. The more of one, the less of the other.


This "unique" blue wasn't very fun to play in open beta. In fact It was made "unique" by reducing it to acm gaining / pb whoring / interrupt fest bs. Because someone had this bright idea, that blue should be a style that wins by tiring out an opponent, and nobody questioned that. Im not sure it had any kind of variable tactics.

...Might be implementation, or might be current definition of unique is wrong.




I should stop typing now, because I can feel I'm getting very angry at you. If my assumptions are correct you are the person who did this to blue. That makes me ... urgh..





P.S
Please, don't retreat to the argument that blue was broken. It was. But the proposed solution is much worse. In open beta blue offensive capabilities was reduced so much, that blue was forced to be played with only one tactic in mind.

 

[Tempest]

I think you misunderstood what I meant.

Uniqueness is what sets one style apart from another. One example would be how Red is a style that generally is about overpowering your opponent. Its uniqueness can be boiled down to its stagger perk (which is also one of its straightforward strengths). On the other hand, one straightforward weakness is that its large windups make it prone to being interrupted/parried.

The variable tactics comment pertains to things like in public (still on the note of using Red), you can do feints/air swings to throw off someone's block to get in and get a body hit to be able to trigger the stagger on following hits. You could also counter and then go ham on them. As it stands now, the only real tactic/strategy that's really relevant majority of the time is sit back and PB counter OR nudge your opponent so they can't PB (counter).

Compare that to altering swing angles, positioning, timing (via choice of swings chained or half swings), importance of actually being mindful of those things (misreading or simply not being skilled enough to read your opponent could result in you getting interrupted repeatedly), and so on. That's the kind of variance in tactics/mechanics I'd like to see being relevant again.

As for how Blue was in the first open beta, I'm not entirely in favor of it being almost completely reliant on PB for damage. I don't want to see it being majorly based around just mashing impossible-to-PB swings either, though (I'd have this be avoidable for all styles if possible, frankly).

If what I said is still not correctly conveying what I mean for each style, it'd probably take another post of the current state of things with demos of how all the changes have affected things...

 

[jewbacca]

As it stands now, the only real tactic/strategy that's really relevant majority of the time is sit back and PB counter OR nudge your opponent so they can't PB (counter).

I don't like this too.

I don't want to see it being majorly based around just mashing impossible-to-PB swings either, though

I don't like unpblockable swings too. But removing offensive capabilities to fix this is a bit too much. You might have just slowed down it a bit :-/

 

[Tempest]

How things are in the post/how they were in first open beta is not likely to reflect how things will be.

 

[jewbacca]

How things are in the post/how they were in first open beta is not likely to reflect how things will be.

Well, that's why I post these ^^ It's a feedback thread, after all.

 

[Tempest]

Yep! Just wanting to clarify things rather than have any misunderstandings (especially if they're going to cause anger :c).

 

[Tempest]

Something else that I wanted to touch on was that for the next patch, it's not going to include the full saber revamp. However, there will be some pieces pulled in to address the main issues in public's play, namely PB counter, nudge, BP upkeep (swing drains & tap/hold differentiation), semi-PB, and repeated consecutives in chains. I'll be including the reasoning for the changes/adjustments in the changelogs as per usual.

Not sure on any sort of schedule for next open beta (especially since there's still one key thing I need to nail down and I don't want to get anyone's hopes up when schedules/plans can change on a sometimes hourly basis) but I think I can probably get a good preview of the state of things alongside the patch (probably would be better to make a separate thread rather than cluttering up release notes with feedback/discussion).

 

[SeV]

Something else that I wanted to touch on was that for the next patch, it's not going to include the full saber revamp. However, there will be some pieces pulled in to address the main issues in public's play, namely PB counter, nudge, BP upkeep (swing drains & tap/hold differentiation), semi-PB, and repeated consecutives in chains. I'll be including the reasoning for the changes/adjustments in the changelogs as per usual.

Not sure on any sort of schedule for next open beta (especially since there's still one key thing I need to nail down and I don't want to get anyone's hopes up when schedules/plans can change on a sometimes hourly basis) but I think I can probably get a good preview of the state of things alongside the patch (probably would be better to make a separate thread rather than cluttering up release notes with feedback/discussion).

It's basically a shoring up of the foundation before the full 'revamp' which is basically just making things better. It should fix alot of issues present in 1.4.4 such as the flat BP drains and insta PB counters that really pull down 1.4.4 so that public sabering becomes playable again. BP upkeep in particular makes an absolutely enormous difference, atleast for me personally.

There are alot of features/planned stuff I am bummed about not making it into the next patch, but it's been ages since I played MBII public due to how horrendously painful 1.4.4 is to play for me with the flat drains. Therefore I can't resent the decision to push out a middle-ground or bridge-like patch such as this. In fact it's a great decision to get it out because I want to play some MBII again.. its been what? over 4 months for me since I played public? So I approve of the release even if it will miss a bunch of things that were worked on, scrapped/reworked in the beta.

So for that reason, it's not some glorious holy patch, more of a fix things and make sabering feel better thingy. All the reworking stuff will have to be added later on when it can all be fit together one thing at a time like pieces in a puzzle. That's why perks and microadjustments will be largely left out, and it'll be a mostly 'fix crap 1.4.4 sabering' kind of patch.

 

[jewbacca]

However, there will be some pieces pulled in to address the main issues in public's play, namely PB counter, nudge, BP upkeep (swing drains & tap/hold differentiation), semi-PB, and repeated consecutives in chains. I'll be including the reasoning for the changes/adjustments in the changelogs as per usual.

This is good. Current saber play is terrible and needs fixing

 

[S o l d i e r]

PB is making saber duels last forever. This is especially annoying in Open mode.

 

[Tempest]

PB is making saber duels last forever. This is especially annoying in Open mode.

Unless there's something besides the pb counter/nudge fest stuff that I mentioned a couple times, I'm quite aware of how annoying/negative the current interactions are for gameplay (as I illustrated in the prior posts) and there's already stuff on the way to address them.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

PB is making saber duels last forever. This is especially annoying in Open mode.

PB isn't making saber duels last forever. If anything PB is far too difficult to achieve in this patch. What makes duels take forever is a combination of how little damage styles do, and how much damage you do to yourself through swinging.