Bring back nudge and "fix" flinch + other tweaks

Gargos

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Hello

I have noticed that flinch is not always working as it is supposed to, but it is not necessarily a bug. It is most likely because the range is set too close for flinch to activate. Look at the demonstration video that I will link here:

As you can see, I hit the jedi while he swings but no flinch occurs. I believe it is because I was too far away. That is why I propose that we buff flinch; make its range wider. Now I know this sounds like another jedi/sith nerf to make them "even weaker" but to balance this out I think we should bring nudge back. If jedi/sith get flinched easier then it would be fine to introduce nudge back IMO.

LIGHTNING:
I am pretty sure lightning stun is still the exact same as it was before the patch (even tho it was supposed to be nerfed). I am still getting stunned for such a long time that I cannot even fire my weapon before I am sabered. It is rather frustrating because there is hardly anything you can do in such situation. Answer is to nerf it properly like grip was or completely rework the force power.
 

Stassin

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Nudge is a separate topic and all the new players who believe they know everything about the game will tilt about it (the game is fine with or without it btw), but as for flinch this can indeed happen. The reference scenario originally considered to decide the max flinching distance was to try to ensure that flinch would more or less always occur to save the gunner if the jedi was swinging and running towards the gunner, but with the gunner at least standing still or walking back. In your example the gunner is walking forward, due to which the distance between the two reduces quicker, and thus the jedi is shot too far away to flinch yet is still able to reach the gunner with his swing. I think if you test flinch with a gunner standing or walking backwards there is almost no chance of this happening with any saber style; or at least it is intended to be that way. I dunno if we got some flinch changes since 1.4.3 but i doubt it so that should be it.
 
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Gargos

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@Stassin As a BH there I may have been able to evade if I timed my backwards run perfectly but if I was an et or sold? Doubt.
 
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Flinch is currently 50/50 and the game decides if you die or not. Nice feature.

Imo just remove pseudo q3/swingblock bs and bring back knockback
 

Tempest

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Too far away when that shot hit. No bugs or questionable stuff happening.
 

Lessen

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you shouldn't have been running towards a jedi, and if you didn't know the jedi was there, you shouldn't have been running towards a blind corner

and if you in-context had no other choice than to run at the blind corner, the jedi won by superior strategy coupled with good execution (it was a great swing)
 

GoodOl'Ben

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Too far away when that shot hit. No bugs or questionable stuff happening.
Boosting range by a few units ought to be considered. I greatly dislike how unreliable flinch is. It is very much a 50/50 whether it activates or not. The only instance I can rely upon it is when the attacker was already in facehugging range. Generally a target that runs towards me will not flinch unless I land a second hit.

Consistency is important for a feature like this. Right now it's not beneficial for either party. You essentially gamble with these strikes.

If flinch feels too strong after being consistent, either increase damage reduction, reduce FP drain on getting hit or make flinches essentially just visualized interrupts -> Allow user to instantly get out of the stagger via a follow-up input like holding block or attack.

Inconsistency is not a desired result.
 
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Could also just remove Flinch because not only is it broken but it also completely breaks the jedi vs gunner dynamic.
No point in doing anything else but sit and wait if you can wreck your opponent when they swing.
 
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Could also just remove Flinch because not only is it broken but it also completely breaks the jedi vs gunner dynamic.
No point in doing anything else but sit and wait if you can wreck your opponent when they swing.
Yeah cos who needs defense mechanisms against instakills right? I just want to remind about the mess 1.3 was in open where Jedi/sith would just run up to any gunner they please and instaswing them without any counterplay. It was jedinoob heaven
 

GoodOl'Ben

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Could also just remove Flinch because not only is it broken but it also completely breaks the jedi vs gunner dynamic.
No point in doing anything else but sit and wait if you can wreck your opponent when they swing.
The only thing it encourages is for the attacker to do a risk/reward assesment.

Do you hamper your movement speed by swingblocking and being safe while you attack or do you maintain speed while being unsafe?

Swingblock is so underutilized against gunners that it pains me. People need to employ it more.
 

Preston

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Please fix flinch. As it is now, it doesn't matter if you are shot from 100 feet away. If you are say, trying to saber a soldier on the ground, and you are close the soldier on the ground, and you're shot from any distance by another player you will flinch. It is infuriating because it doesn't make sense. I assume this is because the game take into account the distance from the nearest body but not the distance from the target that is firing the weapon at you. Fix this and flinch may actually be decent.
 
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Yeah cos who needs defense mechanisms against instakills right? I just want to remind about the mess 1.3 was in open where Jedi/sith would just run up to any gunner they please and instaswing them without any counterplay. It was jedinoob heaven

We could make knockdowns actually matter against jedi. You know, removing that pesky quick getup that's done with Crouch or Jump. Currently knockdown only matters if you have an African sniper in sync with you. In which case making knockdowns kill a jedi requires two people and spending a 15 point grenade. Or if the jedi is just not good and doesn't know hitting one button almost completely nullifies a knockdown. Even then I've fired a 90 percent accuracy burst with whatever gun I've had for an entire duration of a rolling recovery on a jedi who has been hit by a primary nade and they're still kicking.

Didn't we used to have this system where doing a good amount of blaster hits on a jedi would knock them back well beyond saber slash range? Did they remove it? Is it broken? What happened to it? That was already a good system to reduce instagibs from stealthy jedi. I think that would be better because it would only matter if your aim was good and not just good for a split second. Or were the people talking about it succing on death sticks?

It'd certainly be more intuitive and would work on this engine.

Deflect is also fucking broken bullshit that means you don't want to shoot a jedi no matter what, which means they're pressuring you into relying on flinch at that point. Knockdowns? I already said why those suck. I've seen jedi just stand in place unflinching for a minute when fired at by a droideka and several heavy rifles.

Before we were dancing with push vs walk/run and aim versus avoidance. That was a good dynamic. Now we're just at war with a bunch of crutch mechanics. I for one haven't found jedi vs gunner rewarding, engaging or well flowing ever since all this flinch stuff was brought in. And that's on both sides. I didn't touch jedi for a long time because killing my opponent is based more around how much they suck rather than beating them. Sometimes it's just pure luck. And it felt the same playing with a gunner.

It's not really a matter of balance as much as it's a matter of being a horrible mess.
 
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Didn't we used to have this system where doing a good amount of blaster hits on a jedi would knock them back well beyond saber slash range? Did they remove it? Is it broken? What happened to it? That was already a good system to reduce instagibs from stealthy jedi. I think that would be better because it would only matter if your aim was good and not just good for a split second. Or were the people talking about it succing on death sticks?
It was back when there was no pseudo q3/swingblock bs. Knockbacks are the key word here. I prefer them 10000 times over flinch
 
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Wouldn't it work better if swingblock was the thing that gets interrupted mid swing when shot, but would protect from gunfire, but regular swings would cause knockback if taking hits.

Oh wait.
We used to have that.
 

Stassin

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I can't exactly imagine what i would need to explain for (some) people to actually understand how (some) mechanics work, and even then it probably wouldn't be enough and i would just get randomly flamed; but for the educated players:

In the past (pre-v1.4) when there was only knockback when shot, and swings weren't interrupted by flinch, the main issue was that the knockback was too small to save the gunner in basically all situations, except when they landed a headshot (because that had higher knockback, since it is tied to damage dealt). Even then it might still not be enough sometimes in specific scenarios (wall behind gunner etc.). Headshots being extremely unreliable to land even for the best players on a moving target with swinging animations at close range, something needed to be done to better reward gunners for landing even a footshot, instead of just having them immediately die/take huge saber dmg.

Higher knockback was tested extensively in preparation for v1.4, with variants such as qwerty's suggestion at the time that the knockback should remain as it was for single shots, but with a second or more shots landed in quick succession it would skyrocket. Overall the main conclusion of this testing was that the necessary knockback for gunners to be reliably rewarded for landing some shots was far too large and looked extremely bad. The combination of swingblocking (which already existed) and a new interrupting feature called flinch was plainly better, even if only visually, and accomplished a similar role.

As with most mechanics some people believe the current flinch to be overpowrered, others underpowered, but it is actually quite balanced and improves the gameplay quite a bit by making jedi/sith class (ever so slightly) more skill-based (slightly encouraging more deflect play, swingblocking and FP management, as opposed to most of the time rushing in for an instant kill or an instant death if sniped or shot in the head, in the past). I also don't believe higher knockback would be any better in terms of feeling, as it removes some movement control from the jedi just as flinch removes some swinging control.

As it stands for skilled players flinch is nothing more than a "rush for instakill" deterrent, most will use swingblocking extensively (for which defense 3 helps greatly, with reduced FP drains) paired with force powers and conservative play with deflect when needed.
 
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Well, for me, flinch and various other saber vs gunner changes and lack of changes that could've improved it instead have been a deterrent for dedicating myself to this game I've been playing for over 10 years.

Why aren't we gunners expected to recognize ambushes? A jedi behind a corner was never really a problem for me pre-flinch because of this magical thing called caution. 'A shot to the toe' should make up for lacking awareness? Come the fuck on?
And the FP drains back then made it possible to reduce to FP zero efficiently if they failed to hit you and you had a good aim.

In the recent version, I can take jedi and just tap A and D in intervals while someone is shooting at me and I'll easily be around 70 to 100 FP range. Even when they hit me a lot they don't drain shit. What is up with these FP drains? Or I can just stand still and block and make them stop firing completely by showing them that firing at me is 1. meaningless because I can return it with no effort and 2. suicide

Everyone's leaning on crutches and playing rock paper scissors with them because things like avoidance, aiming, even damn map awareness and caution are too much effort.
It's not fun. Sorry.
 

Stassin

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I can say the following:

Everyone's leaning on crutches and playing rock paper scissors
It is exactly the opposite. Before, a jedi vs gunner engagement was what you could call rock paper scissors, Jedi rush + swing could have 2 results: Jedi shot in the head and dies, or Jedi not shot in the head and gunner dies; OR, gunner dodges with a jump and gains the advantage. Of course there are force powers etc. on top, but talking strictly about the swinging vs shooting scenario, that was it. The only option for the gunner was to dodge or shoot in the head (OR get the jedi to low FP before he's up close, OR use other abilities, but these things haven't changed; the situation we are focusing on is the up-close swinging vs shooting).

Now ? Basically the up-close swinging vs shooting engagement has been prolonged and made less of an instant death scenario, for both sides. Which means there is more room for error and more room to apply your skill to consistently win the engagement. If you make 5 mistakes, and the other guy 3 mistakes, you'll lose. Compared to whoever makes the first mistake loses.

How this translates in terms of gameplay ? Up-close, the jedi will start swingblocking at the gunner, hoping for a kill, but isn't committing his own life in the process anymore. If he fails 1 or 2 swingblocks, due to low FP drains paired with good movement and dodging (so he doesn't get shot while running too much), he will still be able to retreat and try again later, and may want to add in a few deflects to scare the gunner at the cost of added risk (of losing more FP while not close to cover yet). However, if he commits too much, his FP will get low enough that he won't be able to retreat anymore under standard conditions (without teammates/a high ground spot easy to reach), and will probably lose the fight due to reaching 0 FP.

On the other hands on the gunner's side partially dodging (while remaining safe against force powers) is still extremely beneficial just because it's much easier to aim at the jedi if he isn't running or even walking around right in your face. When it comes to skilled players where flinch will basically never occur (because it's a plain mistake on the jedi's part to ever get flinched), the way for a gunner to win this up-close engagement, if no other abilities than swinging and shooting are considered, is still the same as before, that is to get the jedi to low FP. Of course this takes much longer than before, but at the same time you have much less risk of dying instantly if you didn't hit a headshot on a strafing target at point blank range. So it will basically be about tempting the jedi into committing too much so that he has too low FP to retreat when he decides to do so, or managing to hit him while he's running to get the massive FP drains (running FP drains weren't that high before, it was changed precisely to encourage these interactions and force the jedi to be more careful of his movement).

Of course, again on top of this you need to add all other abilities available in the game. And ambushing, caution etc. are still exactly the same as before. A gunner unaware of an ambush still has a major chance of dying; indeed he can now flinch a jedi who just rushes and swings in that case, with just a reflex, but in this particular scenario it's not like the jedi only has that option, he could use a force power, he could grab a wall to get the gunner from behind rather than from the side or front (if the gunner was walking/running past a door for example). Most of these interactions are completely unchanged.


Again in summary, what has changed is that the up-close swinging vs shooting battle has become a much more consistent test of skill on both parts, rather than having an instantaneous outcome based on the first mistake from either side (and that was heavily skewed in the jedi's favor since what the gunner needed to hit was a headshot and dodge, quite difficult things to do compared to strafing and swinging; of course blocking FP drains were higher, so even just getting up-close was more of a problem for the jedi and extremely risky against a good gunner unless you were ambushing). You see, it's all about making jedi class harder to play, because it is definitely much more forgiving and requires less mechanical skill (aim) compared to gunner classes, while at the same time giving it less high-risk situations thanks to swingblocking and low blocking FP drains, so that there is more room and time to even apply skill (and for the gunner too).


What is flinch in all this ? Again, just a forward + swing instakill/huge dmg deterrent. It really has little place in an engagement between players who have adapted to these mechanics and don't make big mistakes. But it is still necessary for it to be there, otherwise all of these new gameplay interactions would not even exist, just like before. And for new players it is an obstacle to overcome via using swingblock, something they need to revolve around which is extremely beneficial for making them think about their play and improve, compared to before where they'd often get kills just with forward + swing, and they'd thus remain at that level without being compelled to think much unless they really tried, due to getting decent results with little effort. The only thing lacking is clear documentation on what swingblock/etc. is, so that these things would be easier to pick up (though i believe such things are still at least in the in-game library if you look at the saber vs gun part).


So to answer this:
Everyone's leaning on crutches and playing rock paper scissors with them because things like avoidance, aiming, even damn map awareness and caution are too much effort.
It's not fun. Sorry.
Things like avoidance, aiming, map awareness and caution are still required as much as before without any doubt. On the contrary, jedi vs gun engagements now require more effort since they are longer and more testing, with less instadeath risks. So these "crutches", aka new mechanics precisely allow less rock paper scissors play. Instead of "not shot in the head, instawin" and "shot in the head (or had low HP), instalose", it's "got swingblock interrupted once, twice, third time is a hit" and "got swingblock interrupted thrice, need to retreat, it's up to the gunner to finish me in my retreat by shooting me while i'm running, and up to me to save myself with good movement by getting shot only while blocking and possibly getting some deflects in to scare the gunner". Dodging etc. are things you would do before too, but the point is that now you have many more opportunities to do it because you're alive longer; it's much more testing, thanks to the mechanics and low FP drains making the engagements less highly risky.

It's not fun ? Of course, it won't be fun for anyone trying to play the old way, because that won't work well and all the mechanics will feel out of place since they aren't what you'd expect to happen. If you're looking for effort, i'm pretty sure trying to play the new way has alot of potential to be fun for you. It has definitely made these engagements more skill-based and consistent, and made jedi class harder to play overall (it's still powerful... but harder to play).
 
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