Your Opinion on Reinforcements & Their Future

[MaceMadunusus]

Hey guys,

Reinforcements have been a part of Movie Battles for over a decade now with only minor changes to how they work over the years. This week several people, including myself, will be having a meeting on the future of Reinforcements within Eridan Crisis. This meeting will also be discussing Rally/Assemble. Before that, I want to get a general feeling of how the community feels about the ability available to ET, Commander, Clones, and Soldier so that we may take it into account in our discussion. Any changes to this ability in particular heavily impacts how other abilities, levels, point structures, and classes themselves are built.

I also want to tell you about some of my untested plans and ideas that will have an impact on the value of Reinforcements in their current state within EC.

• I am working to adjust how all levels are laid out, making them flow better which will result in less travel time across levels and more direct access to fights. Most of the current flow issues are due to engine limitations in JKA which are no longer a problem in UE4.
• I am working on decreasing the size of levels as much as I can reducing the time after initial spawn that fights happen.
• I would like to slightly increase average forward movement speed of characters which will also further reduce travel time across levels.
• Ideally, depending on level, I would like to see many maps fit within a 3-4 minute time instead of a 4-5 minute time to reduce the amount of time sitting in spectator after death as a result of some of the changes above.

If you have the time I would really appreciate it if you filled out this form.
Movie Battles II Reinforcements <--- Google Forms Link!

If you would like to hear some of my feelings on Reinforcements I will put them below in a spoiler. Please fill out the form before reading it though as I do not want to impact your feelings with my own.

Spoiler

I like reinforcements for several reasons:

• They give new players and less skilled players an opportunity to make mistakes.
• They open up a wider variety of options for more experienced players.
• They give developers more balancing options
• They can have a greater teamplay component when tied with other abilities.
• More time playing, less time in spectator

I dislike Reinforcements for several other reasons:

• They can be a pain to balance properly
• You can get placed far away from a fight and have to walk for 30+ seconds to find anything again depending on the level
• There is an extreme lack of choice when using reinforcements
• I don't find them a particularly interesting/exciting ability
• Many classes are too reliant on purchasing them.
• Building levels around having reinforcements adds additional complexity to the process.

This is by all means not my full list, but I wanted to give you an idea.

This form is intended to be anonymous so feel free to voice your full opinions. If you wish to discuss anything in this thread feel free to do so but keep it civil.

Thank you to all who fill this out. Any information gained by this form will also be available to the current MB team if they would like to make any adjustments to reinforcements based off of this information.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

I have no problem with them as they are now, and to be honest I'm not a big supporter of changing core mechanics when they have existed for so long.

The change likely wouldn't happen for MB2. This is for EC where basically everything is already changing.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

The change likely wouldn't happen for MB2. This is for EC where basically everything is already changing.

Oh fuck, you are still working on that?
Nice

Well I still say that getting spawn killed is still a big issue for the class but now im thinking all classes that respawn should have at-least more than one option to spawn somewhere that isn't reliant on rally.
Spawn A, Spawn B, default.

I would make soldier exclusive spawns and then spawns for all the other classes and put a new skill for soldiers that allows them to exclusively spawn near to objectives. "Forward" or some shit.
Is there a collection of maps with over head view on them so I can draw up some examples?
Edit: There is and not all maps have them, and not the type of overhead I need.

So here is a mock up from complete memory of death star. Upper levels atleast. Spawn A and B are for the whole team, Spawn S is strictly for soldiers, D is Default. It's not perfect but it should illistrate what I am trying to say of Soldiers having a better spawn position as the game progresses, while the team has a more forward spawn to cut down on traversal times.

The attackers need to complete the map sub objectives to unlock forward spawns, and those forward spawns for soldiers are in the same objective que. So if soldiers want thier better spawns, getting the sub objectives would look more appealing.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

Disagree that it's bad design for the "generic mook" class to be strongst in numbers. Although I'm not sure if you were necessarily arguing to the contrary.

Soldier isn't knock-down focused, it's an expendable bit of firepower, and by virtue of being expendable, it can also afford to do risky things like go for kicks. I don't see this as a problem. It seems fitting for a 1-life heroic badass class to die because he got physically tackled in the chaos by a desperate random no-name trooper. I like it like that. edit: See cuz, dying to knockdowns is itself less of a problem if you're a Soldier. You have more lives. Result being that massed soldiers are best met with massed soldiers, supported by the "heroic" (1-life) classes, which is how it should be IMO. It just doesn't happen that way because people are ninnies and don't spam sold.

and besides, three lives and an E-11 can STILL go a long way, even now, especially against saberists, and especially in numbers. CC2 made soldiers too individually strong in a straight fight. Generic baddies by definition should not be very individually strong in a straight fight. As they are now with CC1, you can still get good mileage off of good strategy and aim.

A280 is, by my judgment, a very useful support gun. It lacks a high RoF or running accuracy, meaning that it's bad for self-defense, but in exchange it lets you fire constant shots with with nearly sniper-level precision, making for a particular kind of strong cover/support fire not found in a sniper rifle. And the burst fire, while also not that great for self-defense, lets you act as a close range support mallet against beefy targets.

And when contrasting it with sniper weapons, you have to also factor in that the A280 is on a two-life class. It's expendable, reliable, low-mobility cover fire. It's basically the inverse of the clone rifle, which is a close range, high-mobility, self-reliant kind of deal.

All weapons should be self reliant. You don't join the military, and get handed a rifle, then told "This is a support weapon, it is meant to defend your more important teammates, you're expendable", why would anyone ever pick that, when I could just get E-11, and support my teammates with the already accurate primary fire. Or... I could just pick a sniper rifle, and do what literally everyone else in the entire universe does, and camp main hall in DotF with BH/Hero.

No one uses these classes because there are rarely any situations in which they're any good. Yeah, sure, Soldier *can* be really powerful if you have a coordinated team, but do you know what is powerful without a coordinated team? Every other class in the game. This is the problem with how some goons have decided to balance MB2 to *force* teamplay in the most unnatural way.

Why shouldn't a generic 'mook' be good? Why can't a TR-8R step up every now and then to shit on people? Why do Stormtroopers *have* to be garbage?

The only thing more frightening than people who believe skill shouldn't matter, is the realization that Flinch was added without actually balancing any of the weapons around said mechanic.

 

[Deleted member 3006]

I feel like it's perfect the way it is honestly, no changes need to be made at all and i've never heard complaints about it so it should be fine.

 

[{Δ} Achilles]

I feel like it's perfect the way it is honestly, no changes need to be made at all and i've never heard complaints about it so it should be fine.

Are you blind and deaf? I hear a complaint almost every day I play MB2 from a wide range of players.

 

[Lessen]

oh yeah I forgot to mention I disagree basically fundamentally with everything you said in your post up there, Achilles. Troopers HAVE to be garbage because troopers and heroes are both "human" (so to speak); the only difference between them is that heroes aren't garbage, and are full of tenacity and guts and skill, while troopers main premise is "dying a lot."

and the military DOES have support weapons ffs. Cover fire. Snipers. come on. And yes, there are classes that are strong without coordinated teams, I think those classes aren't as good as the trooper classes in the context of a coordinated team though. In general.

A280 primary fire is substantially more "accurate" than E-11 primary fire by virtue of having an even higher projectile speed, and a sniper rifle doesn't have all the functionality of an A280, nor does it let you have two lives. So they aren't directly comparable.

in other news, your name makes you impossible to @

 

[Deleted member 3006]

Are you blind and deaf? I hear a complaint almost every day I play MB2 from a wide range of players.

You know you could have said that without sounding rude and disrespectful, still got no clue how you're still here with an attitude like that towards others.

 

[Lessen]

@Combine115 because having an attitude isn't illegal, and he doesn't cross any really serious lines.

@Achilles i haven't seen people complain about reinforcements very much in-game...? Part of that is that I don't see people using reinforcement classes that much. I remember seeing a guy have sort of a "ugh right, you have another life" reaction to a clone, but that's more a complaint about how strong individual clone lives are. I do think it's obnoxious when one guy plays 3 life soldier on offense and ends up as the last guy alive, trudging across the map, but it hasn't stopped me from BEING that guy, and I think that's more a problem with...... spawn points? Maybe? I suppose there's multiple ways to approach that problem.

 

[Deleted member 3006]

Also not many people even play Soldier, well most of the time it's new players but i've never heard anyone complain about reinforcements, some people like it cause they can get a free kill again + not many people choose Soldier as they'd rather go for Jedi,Sith,Mando,Wookie etc the more equip classes. Never heard anyone say "Oh i hate reinforcements" "Oh wow it should be removed/changed" reinforcements is well done and doesn't need to be changed like i said, everytime i see it used it's fair and very useful at times, it just depends on the moment you use it in.

 

[Rosh+]

-snip-

If you haven't even heard a peep about reinforcements on a Discord, or Teamspeak, when your friends are fighting good Soldiers, then you must have not been playing for very long.

Moving on from the response, I will add my own two cents:

I think that there is nothing wrong with Soldiers.

The reasoning for this is that the strength of said Soldier is similar, but not at the same level as the other Classes. Soldiers are weak. Brittle. They can only take 1-2 headshots at armor 1-2, and that is it. The strength of Soldier is the same as all the other classes: Skill of individual players. A good Jedi can demolish an average Soldier, now here is where the difference comes in. A good Soldier will get killed by a good Jedi 9/10, even skill levels and all, but the strength of them is that they can chip off HP in the first encounter, and finish the Jedi off in the next. Pit a team of Soldiers against a team of nothing but Jedi, the Soldiers will win almost every time. The Jedi will eventually go:

"Hmm, we should probably counter with our own gunners, or Soldiers in order to get the game moving on."

So they do, and now there's a stalemate, and this is where the strength of the Jedi come in. The few individuals who refused to change to Soldiers will be able to destroy the Soldiers on the enemy team solely because of the Soldiers that are now on their team. Soldiers pose such a distraction to other gunners at times, that the Jedi can just swoop in, and kill the enemy gunners while they're distracted.

You see, there is this thing called team composition...

The problem comes in when you start to realize that most people are stubborn, and don't want to switch their class to engage in jolly cooperation with their allies to form a good team comp, so naturally they die a lot, then complain about elements of the game, whether it be Wooks, or Jedi/Sith, or how snipers are OP, etc.

There is no problem with Soldier, the only problems are presented by the players themselves. Don't get me wrong, there is some fun to be had with total chaos, and that's all well and good, but if you as a player participate in the chaos, and you still complain, you have had nobody to blame but yourself this entire time.

If you can't cooperate with people, and still complain when you're brutally murdered by the well comp'd team, well, that's your problem.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

Keep this coming guys.

Also remember this:

If you wish to discuss anything in this thread feel free to do so but keep it civil.

Just because someone points out anecdotal evidence doesn't mean they need to be called names because your own experiences differ. It is what THEY think, and that is all I care about. I am here to gather opinions.

Going to pose a question for the sake of argument. I am not asking it because I am considering it but because it just popped into my head. There are a lot of people who like 3 reinforcements over 2 because of the feeling it can create of a larger battle, while also allowing you to stay in the round longer.

Would TitanFall style NPC soldiers be of any interests to anyone?

We could rework relay around that where you can control X number of npc cannon fodder on your own while you yourself have a more powerful class as a commander/ET.

Again, not actually considering it at the moment, just one of those 3 am things that popped into my head.

 

[TadekRaeod]

Would TitanFall style NPC soldiers be of any interests to anyone?

We could rework relay around that where you can control X number of npc cannon fodder on your own while you yourself have a more powerful class as a commander/ET.

you mean,like,controlling them in a sort of RTS style? That would be pretty cool, in my opinion.

 

[Rosh+]

Think they tried that in Forcemod III, apparently JK3 AI is very limited, especially in MP.

 

[Lessen]

If you haven't even heard a peep about reinforcements on a Discord, or Teamspeak, when your friends are fighting good Soldiers, then you must have not been playing for very long.

> Discord
> Teamspeak
> friends
pffffffffffft

but seriously, you can play this game for a long while and get good at it without hanging out on discords or teamspeaks, or having friends you play with. I don't remember seeing much serious whining about reinforcements over in-game chat, so that viewpoint is surely understandable.

(and I have somewhere in the range of 600-800 hours, i think. In general, reinforcement classes get used infrequently anyway.)

 

[MaceMadunusus]

you mean,like,controlling them in a sort of RTS style? That would be pretty cool, in my opinion.

Probably more Republic Commando esque. You would become the squad leader.

 

[BigBossBigTeef]

Would TitanFall style NPC soldiers be of any interests to anyone?
We could rework relay around that where you can control X number of npc cannon fodder on your own while you yourself have a more powerful class as a commander/ET.
Again, not actually considering it at the moment, just one of those 3 am things that popped into my head.

Hey mace, I really like that idea but I want you to play a Swat game before making a final decision on that.
Everyone loves swat 4 but in my personal opinion I like swat 3 better. Either 3 or 4 will work.

 

[Rosh+]

> Discord
> Teamspeak
> friends
pffffffffffft

but seriously, you can play this game for a long while and get good at it without hanging out on discords or teamspeaks, or having friends you play with. I don't remember seeing much serious whining about reinforcements over in-game chat, so that viewpoint is surely understandable.

(and I have somewhere in the range of 600-800 hours, i think. In general, reinforcement classes get used infrequently anyway.)

I've heard complaints ingame as well.

Then again, been playing for about 10 or more years now.

 

[Noob]

Keep this coming guys.

Also remember this:


Just because someone points out anecdotal evidence doesn't mean they need to be called names because your own experiences differ. It is what THEY think, and that is all I care about. I am here to gather opinions.

Going to pose a question for the sake of argument. I am not asking it because I am considering it but because it just popped into my head. There are a lot of people who like 3 reinforcements over 2 because of the feeling it can create of a larger battle, while also allowing you to stay in the round longer.

Would TitanFall style NPC soldiers be of any interests to anyone?

We could rework relay around that where you can control X number of npc cannon fodder on your own while you yourself have a more powerful class as a commander/ET.

Again, not actually considering it at the moment, just one of those 3 am things that popped into my head.

No to NPCs, but i liked it for the reason that Reinforcements do make matches seem bigger than they are. NPCs just aren't workable in MB2, unless the dev team has some wildcard npc coder I doubt it would work.

 

[MaceMadunusus]

Ive said several places this isn't about putting changes in mb2 though. These changes would be for EC. Cmon Noob!

It would still also keep reinforcements on classes like commander/clone but remove soldier entirely as soldier is basically the same as commander but with one additional life and minor other changes.

 

[Noob]

Ive said several places this isn't about putting changes in mb2 though. These changes would be for EC. Cmon Noob!

It would still also keep reinforcements on classes like commander/clone but remove soldier entirely as soldier is basically the same as commander but with one additional life and minor other changes.

mb2 is an example, ec is basically mb2 with new engine and ip right? or am i missing something